I am curious if anyone has ever heard concerns about the FBI Load (38SP 158LSWCHP 158GR+P) and overpenetration on human targets? I have never heard of any but curious.

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Aaron Terry

No, but there's the chance of overpenetration with any hollowpoint. You really need to worry more about the misses.
I do recall some manufacturer's FBI loads would penetrate more than others depending upon the hardness of the lead.

In torso shots with the Winchester and Remington 158 LHP +P loads the performance was typically full penetration front to back or side to side with the expanded bullet stopping under the skin on the off side, in the clothing on the off side or laying on the ground on the off side. It has proven to be a very reliable performer in all respects. This is based on literally dozens of cases in the Dallas area and I'm sure the same was observed in Miami, Chicago and the other locales that adopted this load.

Just so.

Much is made of this point, ignoring that a load that doesn't exit on frontal shot to a 90 lb tweaker won't even get through the ribs of a 300 lb foundry worker.

Add in less optimum angles and intermediate barriers like arms.



Like APS said, worry more about shot placement.

[edit, to add:] Like Mr Dobbs says, exits from hollowpoints rarely have enough energy to even break the skin of someone behind the intended.

Regards,

Pat

You know,I've been using the Gold Dot 135+P in my snubs for a couple of years now and they are certainly performers.I even carry them in the short magnums.
But,when I think back to the early 70's through the late eighties and remember the shootings with the old FBI loads,there's no doubt that they put bad guys down pretty darned effectively,even from snubs,whether they expanded well or not.
Lately,I've been considering just going back to them and stocking the one load for all .38 usage. There's only so much you can do with a handgun load and I've never had any complaints,nor heard any,about these loads by anyone who's used them for real.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

Unfortunately, I can't put much faith in the current 158gr LHP+P loads.

Remington has some real quality control issues with the load (consistently loading them too long). The Federal loads I've tried have been all right but, if I remember correctly, don't chrono near as fast as they once did. The Buffalo Bore loads are exceedingly hot (even the standard pressure ones kick like a mule).

Just be sure to test your loads if you end up going back to the LHP+P load.

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Centennial Every Day

Will do.I've been hearimg the same things elsewhere about the loads being somewhat watered down. I'm going to test some of the Federal's before I completely decide.looking for some Winchesters too. Thanks.Good advice.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

I used this load (it was standard issue) during my 30 yr. LEO career and can say without reservation they work just fine. I'm around to enjoy retirement and my grandkids, the badguys are not.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Gee, how many did you ice? I know a couple of cops who killed more than a couple people while on the job - SWAT snipers in a fairly big city. Never knew any who took out more than one with the FBI Load.

Anyway, back to the question at hand: I've worked on lots of handgun killing cases - including some where overpenetration proved dangerous to unintended targets - and would not expect overpenetration to be an issue with the FBI Load (given proper shot placement). Anything's possible, of course, but I've not seen .38 Special ball rounds tend to overpenetrate, and those big soft lead hollowpoints want to upset even if you just drop the bullet on the floor.

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Now go make God proud...

I have an opinion that U.S. manufactured ammo by major corporations have been watered down a bit by their legal departments over the years. I see European ammo that's manufactured at higher standard velocities/pressures. Maybe its their testing and recording methods though. JMHO.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

We issued the blazer load of this ammo, it was a cost cutting thing at the time. Anyway, two of our officers shot a gun welding perp, one shot him in the hand disarming him on purpose, and almost the same time, the other officer center punched him. He survived, but died a year later of unrelate causes. Anyway when they picked him up to load him on the gurney, the one that center punched him fell out of his shirt, oh yeah, the guy who shot the gun out of his hand, both he and his partner were behind the bar and had good stable rests for them and their weapons.

I'll echo the warning about checking your ammo, Remington seems to be having QC issues with just about everything lately, but the last batch of their FBI load I tested performed quite well in wetpack and milk jugs.

Interesting story Doc. Good to see you over here.You may remember me from TFF.I posted as DocH over there until Brownie shut it down. Hope things are good with you,sir.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

Good info papajohn.Thanks for posting that up,sir.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

thanks stu!

Erich,

Dallas PD had one street officer, during the 80s-90s that carried the issue Model 64 HB 4" with the service stocks. He was involved in six shootings and killed three with the +P LHP. He was a plain Jane dude that was pretty low key. He worked a really ****** area of Dallas and bad guys kept on acting up around him and getting themselves shot.

They had quite a few officers with multiple shootings, but this one sprang to mind when you asked about multiple shootings with that load. Many of the others with multiples were .357 Magnum carriers (or other Magnum calibers in revolvers) and the PD load for that was the Winchester 145 STHP, which works EXTREMELY well on hostile personnel.

Wow - I'm glad that I've got several boxes of it in the garage! Thanks, Wayne!

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Now go make God proud...

I find the W-W loading to be the best, most consistent and accurate. Admittedly, I've not tried the Buffalo Bore offering.

Watch the crimp on the Federal 38G; their iteration of the "FBI Load". There were several lots of it floating around that had issues with bullets jumping the case and tying up the gun between round 3 and round 4.

Of late, it seems the biggest issue with any of the FBI loads from the Big Three (Rem-UMC, Win-Western, Federal) is FINDING IT. When you do, you'd swear that it was loaded with gold dust based upon the prices. I still have half of my last case of W-W that I bought for $10.99 a box.

Drew

That's a great photo, and it brings me back to some milk jug testing I did myself a few years ago. I tested the Buffalo Bore .38+P LHP that looked just like this Remington round. It did what rounds 1 and 3 (in the Remington photo) did and the mushroom sheared off. I counted that as a failure of the bullet because the sheared mushroom stopped in one of the first few jugs and the center core acted as a non-hollow point bullet and went straight through several more jugs. I figured that a lot of the impact energy was lost when the bullet fell apart and stopped any further testing with those rounds. I ended up with Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel because I've never had one disintegrate or shear into pieces during expansion and penetration - they seem to hold together very well. So...please let me know your thoughts on this. I'm not ready to be shot by any of these bullets - I'm sure they all work in that respect, but I'm just curious as to what you guys think about bullets that shatter/fragment/shear apart vs ones that stay intact and don't keep going through the target. By the way, on bullets 1 and 3 (Remington photo) that did shear the doughnut off, how deep did the center core penetrate through the jugs vs the doughnuts? Best wishes, and thanks again for the photo, B

I think the "donut" effect is a result of shooting into pure liquid. I wouldn't be too concerned about it. The actual street results for this load is well documented. I would use it with confidence.

The Gold Dot 135gr is an excellent choice also and would be more likely to perform well after barrier penetration.

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Centennial Every Day

One intangible not addressed here...


a huge amount depends on what underlying anatomic structures were involved.



.

Shot placement is king. Adequate penetration is queen. Everything else is just angels dancing on the heads of pins.

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Now go make God proud...

All three of those Remington FBI loads were recovered from wetpack, both donuts were within a half inch of the center shaft, which penetrated just a bit farther before stopping. Penetration in wetpack was around 6", which translates to around 11-12" in ballistic gel. I can't find my notes to confirm that, but I'm pretty sure those numbers are close.

Where the hotel is my notebook?

I've never tried shooting into wet pack (I assume that is wet newspaper?)...only water-filled milk jugs. I think I may try doing that with those Buffalo Bores to see what they do. Thanks! B

Go to Youtube and search for TNOutdoors. He has number vids on ammo and penetration tests. I think he did a test of Buffalo Bores soft 158 SWCHP.

Yes he shot it through 4 layers of denim it penetrated 18 inches with next to no expansion. I'll just stick with the normal makers Win, Rem and Fed, and get 50 rounds for the cost of 20 rounds of the Buffalo bore.

Pete,

I watched that video with interest. The opening segment tells it all. First shot, single action, was a hit. Next two shots, double action, both misses!

Heavy bullet, high velocity ammo may look good on paper but shouldn't be used if you can't control it!

Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 gr Semiwadcutter Ammo Test - YouTube

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Centennial Every Day

And, two holes bleed better than one.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

That's hilarious, Photoman.

Anyone remember THE LOAD? That slightly exceeded the Buffalo Bore numbers, but no one was claiming that it was anywhere within SAAMI pressure specs.

Yeah, but I've worked on cases where there were additional, unwanted holes in innocent bystanders behind the first one. That's to be avoided.

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Now go make God proud...

I agree. But, more bystanders are taken out by misses than through and throughs.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

That's a shooter problem, not an ammo problem. Selecting ammo that will assure "two holes" is not the best policy in my book.

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Centennial Every Day

Naturally, you're right. That's why I find the Buffalo Bore standard pressure .38 Special 150 grain WC and 158 grain LSWC-HP adequate. (The standard pressure Buffalo Bore chronos faster than the usual commercial +P offerings.)

I was just adding some levity.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

I agree with you on the wadcutter, but I haven't seen the non +P
tested yet.
Check out the new double tap full wadcutter load it's very promising.

Pete

Which I could certainly use almost any day of my life. You're a good man, Dan.

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Now go make God proud...

what are the general specs for the 158gr FBI +P loading?

who loads something like that these days?

158 gr Semi Wadcutter Lead Hollow Point at around 890 fps
Made by all major manufacturs.

I would say 850 fps out of a 4" barrel. Manufacturers that come to mind are Federal, Winchester, Remington and Buffalo Bore.

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Centennial Every Day

Buffalo Bore is a bit faster. They list 979fps from a 4" barrel. I've measured a 975fps 5-shot average. YMMV. And, the difference between the standard pressure and +P load is tangible.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

This is the very best site for information on the ubiquitous .38 spl. Thanks, guys! I've recently been carrying a 64-6 I picked up from J&G. It was advertised as "very good +", and the gun which arrived at my FFL's bench was all of that. (If the gun had 500 rounds through it, I'll eat my hat.) I bought it as a shooter, but it's WAY nicer than that. Like my 10-5 (a 4" gun as well), this gun shoots precisely to POA. I still can't figure out how Smith does that with fixed sighted guns. The 64-6 is a DAO/bobbed hammer gun and its trigger doesn't quite match my 15-3 or the 10-5, but I think it will smooth out with some shooting.

All three of these 4" K frames do very well on paper with Remington's "FBI" load. And all three are so well behaved (in terms of shootability) that I guess I feel adequately armed for my rather unadventurous lifestyle. I'm not prepared to give up my P series Sigs, but I really like these K frame .38 specials.

PC

When a company builds (essentially) the same product for over 100 years, they get pretty good at it.

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Centennial Every Day

The wife decided today that she handles the FBI load better in rapid fire than the 135+P Gold Dot,and it doesn't spank her hand like the Gold Dot. Her choice,but the difference showed on her targets.
I'll echo Erich's statement with a new take on it from a reformed poker player.
Placement is King,penetration is Queen,and anything extra is the Jack of Diamonds. I do love the Gold Dots though.
Woa is me.I hate mightily to clean off lead.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

Erich,
If you were limited to carrying a 642 as primary in a typical urban setting what round would you choose? I'd also like to hear your thoughts on the best choice for a Ruger LCP.

Nowadays I carry either the Winchester PDX-1 .38 Spl +P 130-gr or the Speer Gold Dot +P 135-gr JHPs in my snubs, on advice of armorers and other folks who've done a lot of shooting with them. I also would feel fine with the FBI Load, but I tend to handroll my own versions of that.

In my LCP, I found that S&B 92-gr FMJ gave the same velocity as Double Tap 95-grain ball (though it was not quite as accurate from my gun), and I felt fine carrying either of them (at about 985 fps). Presently I'm carrying the psychotically fast (just shy of 1100 fps from my gun) Buffalo Bore 95-gr "+P" (in quotes because no such SAAMI spec exists) ball in the gun.

I've heard from a reliable source that LAPD has authorized Hornady Critical Defense .380 as ammo for backups, but I'd note that it's not designed to meet the FBI specs and - well, I've worked on three shootings with .380 JHP that failed to adequately penetrate.

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Now go make God proud...

Thank you Erich. I appreciate your time.

Ditto on that. The model 10 or M&P hand ejector has proven it self for decades. Its accurate either with a 158 gr LRN or a LSWCHP 158 gr. The fixed sights are regulated to this round and the revolver seems to be very accurate with the 4 inch barrel.
I have lots of 4 inch police service revolvers. My choice is the Remington or the Buffalo Bore. I believe in penetration. Without enough penetration the attacker might still be able to kill you. Light grain high velocity ammo sometimes does to penetrate enough to do the job.
I prefer penetration or velocity anyday.
Regards,
Howard

I have been looking for a plave to buy some of this stuff at for a fair price havent had much luck though,

My wife carries the GD Short Barrel in her snubbie, my idea, the thought that it is the best for her gun. BUT, if she is faster getting the Remingtons on target, they might be a better choice. We'll have to go to the range and find out.