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  #1  
Old 05-28-2011, 10:50 AM
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Does any manufacturer make a +P version of wadcutters? I would think it would be a good idea, good cutting accompanied with a bit more punch than your normal target load.

Sure it would be easy to fab some up reloading, but you couldn't carry as personal defense stuff; unless you like paying for lawyers.
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:58 AM
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I have not heard of this loading from a factory, but I would guess someone out there has handloaded them. They would have to be jacketed or hard cast to prevent leading.

There have been several threads about using handloads for defense...I think the consensus is it would be unlikely to cause any legal problems.
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:44 AM
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Buffalo Bore sells a "standard pressure" 150 grain wadcutter load that is the closest thing you're likely to get to such a thing.

FWIW, I'm in the camp that believes there's nothing at all wrong with wadcutters for defensive use. I am of the opinion that, unlike rifle cartridges, handgun rounds--with their near-negligible (relatively speaking) energy--work by punching holes in their target. Wadcutters are darned good hole-punchers.
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:52 PM
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The main reason you won't see defensive or hunting loads for wadcutters is that the wadcutter form of bullet does not track straight when it strikes a fleshy target. Great for punching neat holes in paper; not so great for penetration. That, plus long-range accuracy, is the reason why the semiwadcutter exists, and is a better choice for self defense or hunting.
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:31 PM
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Well im not going to get into a match with anyone,im in the wadcutter camp for defense, and the Buffalo Standared load is 850fps out of a snub.
Or just load 4.8 Unique or better with a double end hard cast wadcutter and you have a good load. I'm sure others from the camp will chime in or just search other threads hear on defensive wadcutters.

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Old 05-28-2011, 02:32 PM
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If you are going to try this ,like Murphy said if you push regular lead too fastit will lead up quickly.Also dont use a hollow base wadcutter,if you push these much past 700fps or even that, the hollow cup blows out and the bullet accuracy is shot, 7-8 " sometimes at 25 yards and keyhole badly.Rb
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:37 PM
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Use the Rainer plated they are very accurate pushed at 850 or so.
If you want to use lead try Our very own on the forum Tennesee valley
bullets.

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Old 05-28-2011, 06:39 PM
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The original Hydra-Shoks (pre-Federal) were higher pressure wadcutters, and also hollow points at the same time...



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Old 05-28-2011, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
I would think it would be a good idea, good cutting
A wadcutter as no advantage over a semi-wadcutter with respect the tissue damage.
As several others have said, it's all about bullet construction, and the typical wadcutter is not constructed with defense shooting in mind; the manufacturers of premium bullets generally choose an expanding form.
Some very recoil-sensitive shooters use wadcutters, which certainly is an option.
We went several hundred years using a plain round ball.
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:57 PM
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There are folks that believe the larger the meplate in a slow moving projectile (handgun rounds are slow moving projectiles) the more energy transferred to the target.

I subscribe to this way of thinking. A full wadcutter has the largest meplate possible for the caliber.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:25 AM
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I will run Tennessee Valley Bullet 148-gr hardcast DEWCs over 5.1grains of Unique in a .38 Special. According to the data that I have, it's standard pressure, and I get velocities well over 900 fps from a 1 7/8" tube. Not easy to load into the chambers from a speedloader, but they sure do cook in the primary load.
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Old 05-29-2011, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
I will run Tennessee Valley Bullet 148-gr hardcast DEWCs over 5.1grains of Unique in a .38 Special. According to the data that I have, it's standard pressure, and I get velocities well over 900 fps from a 1 7/8" tube. Not easy to load into the chambers from a speedloader, but they sure do cook in the primary load.
That's a good load and I see no reason not to use them.
To avoid the loading problems I suggest hitting the target the first time around!!
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:10 PM
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I'm always interested in how divisive the wadcutter issue can be. It's a perfectly viable alternative for many who can't tolerate recoil (for medical or other reasons).

As far as a +P wadcutter, I'm not aware of any factory loads like that. The previosly mentioned Buffalo Bore load will surely satisfy your thirst for "hot" wadcutter loads. They kick like a mule in J frame Airweights!
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Old 06-07-2011, 12:46 AM
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I picked up on the hardcast WCs from reading Erich's posts in the past. I cast my own (Lyman # 358495) hard and use 5.0 gr. Unique. They stink when it comes to quick reloads, so I fill the gun with that load and have SWCs (358429) with the same powder charge in my loaders.
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Old 06-07-2011, 02:47 AM
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I have never seen a factory 148WC loaded to +P pressures and so marked on the case or box, by any company. The reason for this is because the WC bullet is designed to be used as a target load only.

The 38Spl WC bullet is a poor defense choice, right along with the RN, FMJ and SWC designs.
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:38 AM
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The 38Spl WC bullet is a poor defense choice, right along with the RN, FMJ and SWC designs.
I have to disagree. The bullet is already full caliber in diameter and the flat edges of the wadcutter will cut tissue as well or better as it does paper. I agree a RN bullet is a poor choice for SD but the WC and SWC are not all that bad. The SWC will also cut tissue quite well. The shoulder of the SWC is very effective on tissue.
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Old 06-07-2011, 11:28 AM
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I guess the Late Jim Cirillo didn't know what he was talking about.
The guy that was on the NYC Stake out Unit that was the unit that was involved in 48 shoot outs which he was involved in 17 of them,
He used a handloaded warmer wadcutter load. He then went on to develope the Safe Stop Bullet.

The hard cast or very sharp shoulder plated wadcutter works great.
It worked great for Jim.
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Photoman44 View Post
I'm always interested in how divisive the wadcutter issue can be. It's a perfectly viable alternative for many who can't tolerate recoil (for medical or other reasons).

As far as a +P wadcutter, I'm not aware of any factory loads like that. The previosly mentioned Buffalo Bore load will surely satisfy your thirst for "hot" wadcutter loads. They kick like a mule in J frame Airweights!

I am not concerned with recoil that much, the wadcutter seems to have proven itself as a SD round, so why not give it a bit more kick.

I will have to get some Buffalo Bore.
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:49 PM
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It is worth remembering that the idea of shooting wadcutters for defensive loads is nothing new. Years ago Peters marketed a .38 special Service Wadcutter load with a 158 grain bullet at 850 fps. I have seen pictures of boxes and ammo. McGivern makes a very brief reference to them in his book.

I also have scans of an old S&W add for the 2" M&P in .38 spl from the 20s or 30s that discussed the use of the Mid Range Wadcutter as an option when you wanted a lighter load because "the sharp shouldered design of this wad cutter makes it an extraordinarily effective man-stopper at short ranges" and "the design of the bullet acts to reduce ... the possibility of the bullet ricocheting and injuring bystanders".
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Old 06-07-2011, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete950 View Post
I guess the Late Jim Cirillo didn't know what he was talking about.
The guy that was on the NYC Stake out Unit that was the unit that was involved in 48 shoot outs which he was involved in 17 of them,
He used a handloaded warmer wadcutter load. He then went on to develope the Safe Stop Bullet.

The hard cast or very sharp shoulder plated wadcutter works great.
It worked great for Jim.
The Safe Stop bullet design is not just a standard WC design. It was also a complete failure like many other propritary designed bullets designed back in the 80s and early 90s. It saw very limited production as a reloading component and it is nearly impossible to find the bullets even as collector items. And IIRC, Fuzzy Fletcher is the holder of the Safe Stop bullet patent and even he isn't currently producing the bullet.

The only reason people started using WC ammo and loading their own reversed hollow base WC bullets is because of the standard service loads back then were RN, FMJ/Matal Capped and SWC in profile. And all of these loads, including the WC, were poor performers.

If the WC is so effective as a SD load then why doesn't every major ammo manufacturer not market their WC rounds as SD ammo?

Of all the photos that I have of 38Spl WC boxes, both pre and post WWII, not one of them states that they were designed for SD use. If they have any printing at all, they say "Sharp Shoulder", "Target", "Match", "Police Match", "Super Match" etc.

Unless one lives in NJ and are forbidden from using HP ammo for SD, there is absolutely no reason not to use a modern JHP bullet. If recoil is a concern then pick a standard pressure JHP load and leave the WC loads for punching paper as they were designed for.

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Old 06-07-2011, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolvergeek View Post
It is worth remembering that the idea of shooting wadcutters for defensive loads is nothing new. Years ago Peters marketed a .38 special Service Wadcutter load with a 158 grain bullet at 850 fps. I have seen pictures of boxes and ammo. McGivern makes a very brief reference to them in his book.

I also have scans of an old S&W add for the 2" M&P in .38 spl from the 20s or 30s that discussed the use of the Mid Range Wadcutter as an option when you wanted a lighter load because "the sharp shouldered design of this wad cutter makes it an extraordinarily effective man-stopper at short ranges" and "the design of the bullet acts to reduce ... the possibility of the bullet ricocheting and injuring bystanders".
In 25+ years of collecting 38Spl rounds I have never seen nor documented the existance of a 158gr WC load by any major manufacturer. I would certainly be interested in any proof that you have showing the existance of a Peters brand 158WC load.

Also, guns/ammo ads from the 20s and 30s really don't mean much. Back in those days the 38S&W/38Colt NP and the 32Long were still in service with LEAs, and the .32 continued even into the 60s as "Police Women's" caliber. Guns/ammo manufacturers advertised all kinds of claims in order to sell their products. Stating that the 38Spl wadcutter is/was an effective alternate to the standard LRN or SWC is no different.
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Old 06-08-2011, 05:30 AM
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Well CTG COLLECTOR since you mention proof I assume you can show
proof that a speeded up hard cast WC is less effective than lighter weight HPs fired from 1 7/8" barreled J frames. Lighter weight JHPs
have failed to expand, penetrate or both in the real world. How
can any HP that fails to expand be more effective than a full caliber
flat face bullet?
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Old 06-08-2011, 08:01 AM
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I have an RCBS cast bullet manual that shows loading data for the 148 gr. WC loaded to about 1200 FPS in .357 Magnum brass. I have about 70 bullets that somebody had cast very hard and lubed with Alox so I decided to see how these would work at high velocity. I loaded right up to the maximum charge weight and the bullets shot right to the sights at 25 yards in my Model 627 with 4" barrel. At 1200 FPS, I'd be surprised if this bullet did anything but drill straight through an assailant at any angle.

The problem with the .38 Special WC loadings is they lack velocity. The vast majority of factory loaded .38 Special lacks velocity as a matter of tradition so I could understand why nobody would want to take chances with a higher velocity WC load.

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Old 06-17-2011, 12:25 PM
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I do remember seeing a box of German made .38 Spl. wadcutters that were actually a very hollow wadcutter load (112grs. IIRC) and loaded too like 1200fps! I think it might have been GECO. But this was like 20 years ago and they were a rareity over here.
But if you look at a little history, you'll remember the old British "Manstopper" load of the late 1800, early 1900 century. They featured a wadcutter shaped projectile with a huge hollow cavity and were mostly loaded in the old .455 Webley, although they might have done the same for the .38 S&W. But I haven't found any info on that.
Wadcutters have a tendency to tumble in flesh due to their design. I have used them from time to time. Dale
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:15 PM
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In 25+ years of collecting 38Spl rounds I have never seen nor documented the existance of a 158gr WC load by any major manufacturer. I would certainly be interested in any proof that you have showing the existance of a Peters brand 158WC load.
I will my copy of 'Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting' this weekend and get you the page numbers that they are referenced on.

Page 352 of the 1946 edition of the NRA Book of Small Arms - Volume 1 Pistols and Revolvers, shows two different power level 148 'clean cut' wadcutter loads by Western.The .38 Special Super - M.M.R. lists 770fps out of a 6 inch barrel. The .38 Special Super MFC. lists the same bullet at 870fps. They don't list anything on Peters ammo though.

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Old 06-17-2011, 06:24 PM
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>If the WC is so effective as a SD load then why doesn't every major ammo manufacturer not market their WC rounds as SD ammo?

There you go.
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:21 PM
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the 148gr DEWC @ 790 - 820 fps will work just fine in a snub nose for SD.
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
If the WC is so effective as a SD load then why doesn't every major ammo manufacturer not market their WC rounds as SD ammo?
Because they have to market magic-bean/magic-pixie-dust stuff that only they manufacture. I mean, to read the press on this new stuff, you'd be shocked to learn that anyone ever even died in the Civil War.

To be honest, the guy who home-rolls a defensive WC load is probably going to be a more deadly shot with it than the fella who buys the a 20-round box of the latest RemFedChesterBonBore TAPDXTALON'Ball round that got written up in ShootingAmmoBlast. Because he'll have shot a hell of a lot more of it through his gun, and he'll have tailored his load to do what he needs from his gun.

Don't get me wrong, I like magic beans as much as the next guy, but you don't need a magic bean . . . or pixie dust. If people spent half the time actually practicing and studying shot-placement with Gray's Anatomy that they do arguing over pixie-dust bullets and tastes-great/less-filling caliber issues, folks would be a lot better off.

Now let me get back to worrying over what I should carry in my new SIG P220 Compact Elite SAO - the Hornady TAP 200-gr +P rounds that do 950 fps from the gun or the Winchester Ranger RA45TP 230-gr +Ps that do 900 fps from it. All you boys have a great weekend and a wonderful Father's Day!
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
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I will my copy of 'Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting' this weekend and get you the page numbers that they are referenced on.**

Page 352 of the 1946 edition of the NRA Book of Small Arms - Volume 1 Pistols and Revolvers, shows two different power level 148 'clean cut' wadcutter loads by Western.The .38 Special Super - M.M.R. lists 770fps out of a 6 inch barrel. The .38 Special Super MFC. lists the same bullet at 870fps. They don't list anything on Peters ammo though.
**Page 439 has a photograph of several .38 Special cartridges and bullets. On page 440, the cartridge labeled "26" on page 439 is described as "...Full cartridge view of Peters 158-grain full load wad cutter bullet cartridge." (A sectioned cartridge is #25 in the photo.) Other .38 Special cartridges in the photo are designated as "mid-range", so McGivern was definitely making a distinction between the two.
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Old 06-18-2011, 03:12 AM
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I will my copy of 'Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting' this weekend and get you the page numbers that they are referenced on.

Page 352 of the 1946 edition of the NRA Book of Small Arms - Volume 1 Pistols and Revolvers, shows two different power level 148 'clean cut' wadcutter loads by Western.The .38 Special Super - M.M.R. lists 770fps out of a 6 inch barrel. The .38 Special Super MFC. lists the same bullet at 870fps. They don't list anything on Peters ammo though.
I think we have a miscommunication here.

In your post that I quoted you mentioned a 158 grain WC You may have mistyped and ment 148 and not 158. I have dozens of photos of different factory loads in 148gr WC, but have never heard of nor seen any factory 158 grain WC ammo before.
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Old 06-18-2011, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTG_COLLECTOR View Post
I think we have a miscommunication here.

In your post that I quoted you mentioned a 158 grain WC You may have mistyped and ment 148 and not 158. I have dozens of photos of different factory loads in 148gr WC, but have never heard of nor seen any factory 158 grain WC ammo before.
CTG, check post #29. I recalled the same photo in Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting that Revolvergeek had seen, so I looked it up in my copy. There must not have been much demand for a WC load of that weight/velocity.
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Because they have to market magic-bean/magic-pixie-dust stuff that only they manufacture. I mean, to read the press on this new stuff, you'd be shocked to learn that anyone ever even died in the Civil War.

To be honest, the guy who home-rolls a defensive WC load is probably going to be a more deadly shot with it than the fella who buys the a 20-round box of the latest RemFedChesterBonBore TAPDXTALON'Ball round that got written up in ShootingAmmoBlast. Because he'll have shot a hell of a lot more of it through his gun, and he'll have tailored his load to do what he needs from his gun.

Don't get me wrong, I like magic beans as much as the next guy, but you don't need a magic bean . . . or pixie dust. If people spent half the time actually practicing and studying shot-placement with Gray's Anatomy that they do arguing over pixie-dust bullets and tastes-great/less-filling caliber issues, folks would be a lot better off.

Now let me get back to worrying over what I should carry in my new SIG P220 Compact Elite SAO - the Hornady TAP 200-gr +P rounds that do 950 fps from the gun or the Winchester Ranger RA45TP 230-gr +Ps that do 900 fps from it. All you boys have a great weekend and a wonderful Father's Day!
Come on Erich... Tell us how you REALLY feel about wadcutters.
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:41 PM
revolvergeek revolvergeek is offline
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I was just reading my copy of H.M. Stebbins "Pistols a modern encyclopedia" from 1961. On page 222 he is discussing the .38 spl, and he states that the "old full charge wadcutter sending a 148-grain spool of lead at 870fps" was discontinued because it was considered dangerous in old, worn out guns that were not properly in time due to lead shaving. He seems to approve of the idea in general though, stating that the wadcutter bullet "is shaped to kill... to stop a man".

I love digging through all the old books!

Last edited by revolvergeek; 06-19-2012 at 09:31 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:13 PM
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Pigirondan Pigirondan is offline
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Originally Posted by Erich View Post
I will run Tennessee Valley Bullet 148-gr hardcast DEWCs over 5.1grains of Unique in a .38 Special. According to the data that I have, it's standard pressure, and I get velocities well over 900 fps from a 1 7/8" tube. Not easy to load into the chambers from a speedloader, but they sure do cook in the primary load.
I do the same thing with 5.0 grains Unique and 4.0 grains of Bullseye using Hunter's Supply 148 grain DEWC. YMMV

Blue Bunny was making some smoking hot 148 grain wadcutter loads, then stopped.
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357 magnum, 38spl, 627, hornady, j frame, nra, projectiles, rcbs, sig arms, snubnose, speedloader, wadcutter, webley, winchester, wwii

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