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Old 07-18-2012, 08:18 PM
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Default Filling hollow point bullets

First off, im NOT wanting to do this. Im just wondering what you guys thought about the subject. I have been reading around on different firearm forums that some people are filling their HPs with different things.
One example a guy placed shot out of a shotgun shell in the HP and covered it up with wax. I really dont have a question on it since I really dont see the need in doing it, but I wanted everyones thoughts on it.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:45 PM
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If memory serves, there was a commercial round that featured a piece of birdshot in the hollow point. The idea was that the piece of shot would help the hollow point expand, similar to the idea of the Hydrashok (patented in 1978). My aging memory says that this idea predated the introduction of the Hydrashok but I may be wrong.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:01 PM
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The ball may be an old technique to have a hp bullet feed in a gun that was ment to fire fmj only. Like the new Power Ball ammo for older 1911s and Hi Powers which wernt originally designed to feed HP.

Just a guess

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Old 07-18-2012, 09:22 PM
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Guy's I did an experiment. Look at the Hornady ammo with the flex tips.
they are on to somthing. I filled the hollow point of there 9mm 147 grain and 38 158 grain XTP ammo. fired each into city telephone books and wow they expanded perfect. Of cours make sure the calk has dried over night. Now when you shoot these rounds with out the calk into the books they do not expand.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:27 PM
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The Germans filled HP bullets with Mercury in WWI, it's my understanding it was quite effective. It's also a felony in the US, as well as Internationally condemner, so don't try it.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:47 PM
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i also read where someone lightly pressed a primer in the HP thinking it would cause a bigger boom when it hit the target
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:32 PM
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Back in the day someone, I believe Winchester, marketed a .25 ACP round that was essentially a hollow point with a steel BB embedded in the hollow point. I'll dig around and see if I still have some and post a pic.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:03 AM
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Pete
What type of caulk did you use ? A rubbery flexible one like window seal or a stiffer one like PL200 construction adhesive? I have been thinking of trying the latter in some XTP also I am glad to hear of your test.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 125JHP View Post
Pete
What type of caulk did you use ? A rubbery flexible one like window seal or a stiffer one like PL200 construction adhesive? I have been thinking of trying the latter in some XTP also I am glad to hear of your test.
Just regular bath tub calk! I also did this with some Russian mak ammo.
It worked.

Pete
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:40 AM
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Things that make you go, hmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Old 07-19-2012, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmaxboy08 View Post
i also read where someone lightly pressed a primer in the HP thinking it would cause a bigger boom when it hit the target
Squires-Bingham marketed the "Exploder" round in the early 80's using this idea. I tried some in a .44 Special Charter Arms Bulldog which was all the rage for CCW at the time. Wasn't too effective on anything soft, but if you shot a cinder block it would pop. Not really all that impressive, but it would ignite.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN L View Post
Back in the day someone, I believe Winchester, marketed a .25 ACP round that was essentially a hollow point with a steel BB embedded in the hollow point. I'll dig around and see if I still have some and post a pic.
I had some of that ammo for my Intratec Pro-Tec 20 years ago or so. I don't know if it makes a difference in wound ballistics but all the rounds cycled through the gun, NOT something that all the ammo I tried for the little gun could do.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:42 AM
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Default filling hollowpoints

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Originally Posted by StatesRightist View Post
The Germans filled HP bullets with Mercury in WWI, it's my understanding it was quite effective. It's also a felony in the US, as well as Internationally condemner, so don't try it.
Is filling it with mercury illegal or filling it? Where they trying to get expansion,bullet upset or mercury poisoning? Thank You.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmaxboy08 View Post
i also read where someone lightly pressed a primer in the HP thinking it would cause a bigger boom when it hit the target
I'm just not sure what to think about this.... other than not good.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:42 AM
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The current crop of Hornady rubbernose bullets is just the latest in a long history of gimmick bullets. If you can think of it, it has probably already been done. Yes, birdshot or steel BBs in hollowpoints, clear back to the Hoxie of 1907!
There was a bullet with a nose cavity filled with grease and swaged over so it looked like a softpoint, I think in the 1930s, but don't have the old ad any more.

Mercury? I doubt the Germans would have fooled with it much. Discussion of the faults of mercury in an old post at:
The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Gel or grease in a hollowpoint makes it expand reliably at all times...

Charles Newton designed a bullet with a wrap of paper between the jacket and core to insulate the core from barrel friction in his very high velocity rifles. He also put a steel pin down through the softnose to keep the lead from slumping at launch and to control expansion upon impact.

Explosive bullets? Sure, dozens of designs from the Jacobs forward.
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:00 PM
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Hornady's use of a soft polymer insert in the hollow of the FTX ammo is a great solution to the well documented condition and complaint that JHP's can become clogged with the material they must pass though like heaby clothing and gyp board which can prevent the bullet from expanding as desired. Other companies have developed bullets that will generally perform well through thick clothses, wall board, etc but tests do show that their expansion is reduced somewhat.

I would think that any good pliable and flexible compound would work similarly to Hornady's insert, at least as long as it retained similar characteristics. The problem with calking and other such material you can buy at Home Depot in my experience is that they eventually harden with age and exposure to heat. Horandy's insert likely has a longer usefull shelf life.

As someone once quiped, "the XTP's won>t clog up because they've already been pre-clogged."
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:15 PM
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The mercury story is not true ,having worked with mercury manometers. The mercury will quickly desolve brass and lead.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:36 PM
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I remember in Jaws 2 the police chief put it in the hollow points for his revolver to kill that mean old shark. they can do anything in the movies.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:08 PM
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If you add any weight to a commercial round, it will raise the pressure some. I don't think seriously, but heavier loads use less powder, for this reason. Something dense like Mercury or Lead would make the greatest difference, of course!

rat
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:47 AM
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I frequently weigh bullets to see their manufacturing consistency. Most (even high quality brands) vary up to +/- 1.5~2 grains from their nominal weight.

Yesterday I took some 90gr XTP and filled the cavities with DAP window and door caulk. The one bullet I weighed afterward was exactly 90.0 grains. Now to see how they expand in water compared to regular XTP at 930 fps from a .380.

DAP advertises that it stays flexible and a typical life of 15-20 yrs, so I don't expect it to 'harden' in storage, at least till I shoot them. This concept provides multiple testing opportunities to shoot more - different fillers and different brand bullets... all in the name of science of course.
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:07 AM
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Posted - September 20 2003 : 08:35:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J Adams-Am using Permatex silicone adhesive sealant, it was in a smaller more manageable tube. Did some more testing with xtp's, gold dots and golden sabers of various weights (185, 200 230 gn), handloaded slightly below plus p velocitys. Tested from 3 in 45 acp semi (3 rounds each).

Was particulary interested in the 230 gn loadings, where all but one individual (rem GS), failed to expand. The silicone altered rounds all expanded, although the Speer 230 gn expanded somewhat excessively, with one to a full .90 in and limited penetration. Was particulary interested in the 230 gn xtp's and golden sabers, which both expanded seemingly quite well, and maintained some penetration. The Golden sabers expanded back upon them selves, but maintained a good diameter and penetration. The 230 gn GS's closely resembled the results of the RA45Tp's in penetration and expansion.

When get time, will reduce the velocity's further down, as this was one of the original goals of doing this.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:58 PM
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Also look at the Magtech 95gr JSP - I got some as an alternative to FMJ and they look just like a XTP with the cavity filled with lead. (what a concept).
Magtech Bullets 9mm (355 Diameter) 95 Grain Jacketed Soft Point

Last edited by 125JHP; 07-21-2012 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StatesRightist View Post
The Germans filled HP bullets with Mercury in WWI, it's my understanding it was quite effective. It's also a felony in the US, as well as Internationally condemner, so don't try it.
I will never understand restricting something already designed to kill someone. Putting mercury in a HP sounds mean, but I would say shooting it in the first place would be pretty messed up if you had too. What's the point, I figure if i'm shooting at someone they probably deserve to die anyway. Mercury would be a very slow way to kill someone, it would only work if they were wounded.
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Old 07-22-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Hunterfz6 View Post
I will never understand restricting something already designed to kill someone. Putting mercury in a HP sounds mean, but I would say shooting it in the first place would be pretty messed up if you had too. What's the point, I figure if i'm shooting at someone they probably deserve to die anyway. Mercury would be a very slow way to kill someone, it would only work if they were wounded.
I read the other post about the chief in a ,"Jaws" movie loading mercury into his ammo for the Combat Masterpiece, if I recall the gun.

I thought at the time I saw the film that this was probably not enough to kill a 25 foot shark. Reading the post about mercury disolving brass and lead makes me even less interested in that technique.

No sharks here, but alligators and cougars and bears in some parts of the state. Offshore, we do have many shark species, of course, including bulls, tigers, and whites.

Mobsters in NYC were rumored to put garlic in bullet noses, figuring it'd cause an infection that would kill a victim if the bullet didn't do that otherwise. Don't know if it worked. If the bullet wasn't a HP, they cut crosses in the nose and pressed in the garlic.

Last edited by Texas Star; 07-22-2012 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 07-22-2012, 03:21 PM
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Years ago (I was about 20 or so...) when I was casting bullets, I would occasionally toss a Speer .45 200 gr. JHP 'Flying Ashtray' into the lead furnace, and of course, it's core would immediately melt out, and the jacket float to the surface.

The 'hole' at the front of the jacket was EXACTLY the right size to hold a 209 shotshell primer.
In order to return some lead to the jacket's interior, I would tightly pack it with #12 shot, and leave just enough room to epoxy a 209 primer in place in the front of the bullet.

Would load them in .45 ACP and .45 Colt cases. They were fun to play with and did wondrous things to blocks of wood, clay creekbanks, and water-filled milk jugs.

Sometimes, instead of filling the jacket with the #12 shot, I'd fill it with black powder ground to a flour-like consistency, and then top with the 209 primer. Those were fun, and made a really nice 'flash/pop' on impact with anything.

Yes, I was a strange child.
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Old 07-22-2012, 03:28 PM
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Only issue I can see with filling HP ammo with anything is that it would have to be evenly dispersed inside otherwise it could cause a wobble and affect accuracy.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:32 PM
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This would be a solution in search of a problem with good quality service ammo.
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:50 AM
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Yes, I was a strange child. Good thing that we did not know each other as children, prob would not have are fingers, toes,ETC,LOL
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Old 07-28-2012, 02:25 AM
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Its been several decades since I read "The Day of the Jackal", by Frederick Forsyth, but I remember the assassin drilled a hollow cavity deep in the nose of a bullet and put some Mercury in the hole. Then the tip was sealed, perhaps with lead. The idea was that the heavy, liquid Mercury would move forward in the cavity when the bullet hit and slowed down. This was supposed to cause the bullet to fragment in the targets head. He tested one of his bullets on a melon, as I recall, and was happy with the way it "exploded".

rick
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riverrat38 View Post
Its been several decades since I read "The Day of the Jackal", by Frederick Forsyth, but I remember the assassin drilled a hollow cavity deep in the nose of a bullet and put some Mercury in the hole. Then the tip was sealed, perhaps with lead. The idea was that the heavy, liquid Mercury would move forward in the cavity when the bullet hit and slowed down. This was supposed to cause the bullet to fragment in the targets head. He tested one of his bullets on a melon, as I recall, and was happy with the way it "exploded".

rick

That was also an impressive scene in the movie! But we don't know what the cavity consisted of, maybe not lead.

And in fiction and in movies, what you see may not reflect real life facts.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:42 AM
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A couple of gentle corrections, my friends: SidV, mercury will not dissolve lead or brass, but will amalgamate with them, making the lead into the approximate consistency of fresh window putty, and making the brass brittle.
jakenov3,the Amity sheriff in Jaws 2 put drops of cyanide, not mercury into the HPs for his Combat Masterpiece - equally ineffective.
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Old 07-28-2012, 06:28 AM
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If you were to fill up the hollow with pure silver would it kill a werewolf?
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Old 07-28-2012, 09:30 AM
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If you filled it with little tiny wood stakes could you kill a vampire shot placement would be key
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Old 07-28-2012, 10:31 AM
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Personally I would like to think that I waste enough time on other avenues, to take perfectly good ammo and try to "improve it" is beyond my comprehension.

Perhaps they could also improve a chicken egg...

"That's all I have to say about that"

terry
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Old 07-28-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raisedin99 View Post
Personally I would like to think that I waste enough time on other avenues, to take perfectly good ammo and try to "improve it" is beyond my comprehension.

Perhaps they could also improve a chicken egg...

"That's all I have to say about that"

terry

Agree 119% Terry. It is indeed pointless. Quality defensive ammo is currently at the pinnacle of performance and reliability.

My references were what a bored 20 y.o. gun-geek (me) would have done back in about 1977. And my 'mad-scientist' experiments had nothing to do with defense it was all about FUN!
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Old 07-28-2012, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Corp View Post
Sometimes, instead of filling the jacket with the #12 shot, I'd fill it with black powder ground to a flour-like consistency, and then top with the 209 primer. Those were fun, and made a really nice 'flash/pop' on impact with anything.
On a similar track...
My dad would pull the bullets and dump the powder from 22 Shorts, and refill the cases with Bullseye. The refilled cases would be pressed into HP versions of Lyman's 429244 which he had drilled out, and were then loaded into 44 Magnums. The result, when fired into five-gallon buckets of sifted river sand, was not quite so much sand as there was to begin with, with the addition of many, many tiny slivers of lead.

I'm still not sure just what his intended purpose for these may have been, but he loaded them on occaision for many years.
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Old 07-28-2012, 11:07 AM
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That's great Triple!
Another experiment I did that was fun - I usually had a supply of .22 BB caps made by, IIRC, RWS. The .22" ball could be popped out of the powderless case with a thumbnail. I would pack as much Bullseye in the case as possible, cram the .22" ball back in place. Load into my old SS .22 rifle.
These would do a GREAT job on backyard squirrels! An early, miniature 'Stinger'!
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Old 07-29-2012, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebago Son View Post
Squires-Bingham marketed the "Exploder" round in the early 80's using this idea. I tried some in a .44 Special Charter Arms Bulldog which was all the rage for CCW at the time. Wasn't too effective on anything soft, but if you shot a cinder block it would pop. Not really all that impressive, but it would ignite.
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