Defensive ammo for short barrels

[Ron In MD]

I have a 2 7/8" bbl S&W 640 in 357mag and a S&W 686 with a 2.5" bbl that I use for CCW.

I'm interested in what defensive ammo others carry in their short barreled revolvers.

I've been offered this, Federal 38 special 158 grain +P semi-wadcutters at a reasonable price but not sure if it will expand enough if needed in a defensive situation.

[Hapworth]

This is a good question that gets asked a lot. You'll do well to run a search here and read the many accumulated opinions.

In short, I think you'll be better served using .38 defensive loads, in spite of the .357 capability.

The Federal round you've been offered sounds like the famed FBI load, provided they're hollow point semi-wadcutters. This is well proven round out of snubbies; some do argue that current iterations from Federal, Remington and Winchester are of mixed quality.

Also consider:

- Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel .38 +P 135 grain
- CorBon DPX .38 +P 110 grain
- Buffalo Bore .38 standard pressure or +P 158 grain LSWHC
- Hornady Critical Defense .38 standard pressure or +P 110 grain

[Ron In MD]

THANKS for the reply.

I have searched and found many other ammo's that are suitable for short barreled revolvers, but I was looking for information on the specific ammo mentioned as that is what is being offered.

[ArchAngelCD]

I can't speak for anyone but myself. That said, my M640 will shoot 145gr Winchester Silvertip ammo so well it's actually scary! That revolver will get nothing but those STHP ammo as long as I can buy it. (I just bought 4 boxes so that will last a good long time)

[Ron In MD]

The Federal 38 special 158 grain +P semi-wadcutters I have been offered are NOT HP.

Due to the short barrel lengths on my smith's I'm not interested in shooting 357's.

So I'll continue on my search.

Thanks for the replies.

[JJ_BPK]

Originally Posted by Ron In MD

The Federal 38 special 158 grain +P semi-wadcutters I have been offered are NOT HP.

Due to the short barrel lengths on my smith's I'm not interested in shooting 357's.

So I'll continue on my search.

Thanks for the replies.

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel was designed to burn all the charge before the slug cleared the barrel. This helps reduce night flash.

With the exception of Speer Short Barrel and others that use faster power, Published data it based on a 4, 5, or 6 inch barrel. This means there is some part of the charge still burning when the slug exits the barrel.. BIG FLASH.

+p, +p+, and 357mag try to push the slug faster for better transfer of energy at impact. Not necessarily more penetration, but better expansion, depending on the slug design.

The kicker,, In the winter you will need more penetration, In the summer you need more expansion..

Net Net: Pick a couple loads, whatever you find fits your pocketbook, adjusted for seasonal activities..

Micro management of velocity & energy does not get the job done.

Frequent practice will improve accuracy, repeatability, reliability, and that will get the job done..

Mastery of your tools is what you strive for..

Good Luck..

[Hapworth]

Originally Posted by Ron In MD

The Federal 38 special 158 grain +P semi-wadcutters I have been offered are NOT HP.

Due to the short barrel lengths on my smith's I'm not interested in shooting 357's.

So I'll continue on my search.

Thanks for the replies.

I didn't realize Federal made a .38 +P 158 grain semiwadcutter that wasn't the FBI load. I can't find anything about it; do you have a link to this round?

Also, I failed to mention that the Buffalo Bore rounds I listed are their take on the FBI load.

Given the rounds mentioned here and in other threads on the subject, if you're continuing the search I'll presume the suggestions don't meet your needs. Could you give a little more detail on what you're looking for?

[Steve C]

T recently bought a S&W model 10-5 in 2" and have found it a great snub nose. I also have had a Colt Detective Special for many years. Typically I have loaded the DS with 158gr LSWCHP's or Federal Nyclads. I mostly carry hand loads in my .38's and .357 mags as duplication of factory velocities with equivalent bullets is relatively easy.

After watching some tests on Yoo Tube I've concluded that the 158gr LSWCHP while adequate as a defense round doesn't expand consistently, even in water tests. The denim test using Buffalo Bore was particularly disappointing and I'm not sure the extra velocity imparted by the Buffalo Bore round helps or actually hinders bullet expansion when tested against denim. My loads with 158gr LSWCHP's run about 200 fps less out of a snub the the BB.

I've changed to Speer 135gr Gold Dots as they apear to expand reliably at snub nose velocity (Speer says they only need 835 fps) in tests on Yoo Tube. The other rounds I would use is the Remington 125 gr Golden Saber, a 125 gr Gold Dot, or 110gr Gold Dot or Hornady.

A 4" barrel or longer makes the .38 spl ammo much more effective IMO and most 125gr to 140gr JHP's or any of the LSWCHP's do much better.

While .357 mag loads will be much more effective in your snubs than .38 spl's you have your reasons for using them. Here are a couple videos on tests done on the ammo type metioned.

Speer Gold Dot .38 Special +P 135 gr Ammo Test - YouTube
Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 gr Semiwadcutter Ammo Test - YouTube
.38 Special +P Remington Golden Saber Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

[arizona98tj]

Several months ago, I ran some Speer Gold Dots 125gr +P JHP (not the short barrel variety) over my chronograph. From my Ruger LCR (2" barrel), they averaged 913 FPS when checked 10' from the barrel. Since then, I've made them my regular carry rounds for the LCR.

I've not shot them at night....the range I use closes down at sunset. No idea how bad (or not) the flash may be.

[Hapworth]

Originally Posted by arizona98tj

Several months ago, I ran some Speer Gold Dots 125gr +P JHP (not the short barrel variety) over my chronograph. From my Ruger LCR (2" barrel), they averaged 913 FPS when checked 10' from the barrel. Since then, I've made them my regular carry rounds for the LCR.

As near as I can tell, you chose this round based solely on velocity.

Velocity being only part of the equation for a good defensive round -- and sometimes a bad thing in greater amounts -- I'm missing something in your decision making process.

Could you elaborate why this round over a similar one from the same maker designed for a short barrel?

[arizona98tj]

You made an incorrect assumption. My comment regarding velocity was made in response to the individual who commented about a minimum velocity needed to ensure adequate expansion. Since a lot of folks don't have chrono data available in the barrel length they might be carrying, I thought I would supply what info I had for a 2" barrel.

Aside from the above, I opted to carry this round for a number of reasons. First, I like the accuracy. Second, several water jugs, stacked one behind the other, gave me an adequate example of penetration. Third, the reliability was good. Fourth, I found that the recoil created in my < 16 ounce LCR was not too bad and allowed for a reasonable followup shot. Fifth, I didn't have local/easy access to the short barrel version of this cartridge. Last, the price was acceptable.

[blujax01]

For the life of me I cannot fathom why one would purchase a .357 and then shoot .38's in it.

You want .38 performance buy a .38.

[Hapworth]

Originally Posted by arizona98tj

Aside from the above, I opted to carry this round for a number of reasons. First, I like the accuracy. Second, several water jugs, stacked one behind the other, gave me an adequate example of penetration. Third, the reliability was good. Fourth, I found that the recoil created in my < 16 ounce LCR was not too bad and allowed for a reasonable followup shot. Fifth, I didn't have local/easy access to the short barrel version of this cartridge. Last, the price was acceptable.

That explains it well; thank you.

[Hapworth]

Originally Posted by blujax01

For the life of me I cannot fathom why one would purchase a .357 and then shoot .38's in it.

You want .38 performance buy a .38.

Here's a few off the top of my head:

- The desire to both plink and go KA-BOOM! as need or whim dictates.

- Dual-use gun where the .357 load is preferred for hunting or mountain work, and .38 is the preferred load for home defense work.

- A particular model firearm that suits one's specific needs and happens to be chambered for .357 but the shooter prefers .38, e.g., a Model 66 3" for concealed carry with a full length extractor rod and target sites, and the FBI load is the shooter's ideal round.

- Greater number of options in a situation where ammo for whatever reason is in short supply; having a duel-caliber weapon increases your odds of finding useable rounds.

[vytoland]

DEWC - Buffalo Bore .38 Special 150 Grain Lead Wadcutter

they come out already expanded

[ruger-p94]

Has anyone used or have an opinion on Winchester PDX1
Defender 38 special +P 130 grain. I have that in my model 13-3 for home defense but have not yet fired off a few. The advertising says they are good but that is just advertising. Muzzle velocity is 950 and energy 260. I'm going to the range tomorrow so I may fire a few but am only allowed to fire at a target...that does not do much in the way of knowing the end results so to speak.

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

My personal choice would be the Speer 38Spl 135GDHP+P.

[arizona98tj]

Originally Posted by blujax01

For the life of me I cannot fathom why one would purchase a .357 and then shoot .38's in it.

You want .38 performance buy a .38.

Perhaps for the same reason that many shooters purchase a 12 gauge shotgun with a 3 1/2" chamber and yet shoot 2 3/4" Walmart Federal bulk shells?

Maybe folks prefer the versatility it offers?

Why do people buy 120+ MPH automobiles or motorcycles when the speed limit is 75 MPH (or less)?

If you can answer the above, you can probably figure out an answer for your question.

[JOE MACK]

I like the Speer Gold Dot SB .38+p stuff. I also like my hoarded supply of S&W .38Spcl Nyclad ammo.

[ArchAngelCD]

Since there are a lot of you choosing the 135gr Speer Short Barrel .38 Special +P round, why not the 135gr Speer Short Barrel .357 Magnum round. It is the best .38 Special +P load available. (I'll explain)

The .38 Special +P is rated @860 fps from a 2" barrel
The .357 Magnum is rated @990 fps from a 2" barrel

Since the SB .357 Magnum load is just slightly more than a good .38 Special +P why not carry them in your M640? Both use the same bullet which was designed to reliable expand at the lower velocities associated with a short barrel but the additional 100 fps from the magnum round is just a little insurance. IMO it's a win-win without using a full power magnum load that's too difficult to shoot well...

[blujax01]

Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD

Since there are a lot of you choosing the 135gr Speer Short Barrel .38 Special +P round, why not the 135gr Speer Short Barrel .357 Magnum round. It is the best .38 Special +P load available. (I'll explain)

The .38 Special +P is rated @860 fps from a 2" barrel
The .357 Magnum is rated @990 fps from a 2" barrel

Since the SB .357 Magnum load is just slightly more than a good .38 Special +P why not carry them in your M640? Both use the same bullet which was designed to reliable expand at the lower velocities associated with a short barrel but the additional 100 fps from the magnum round is just a little insurance. IMO it's a win-win without using a full power magnum load that's too difficult to shoot well...

And since the case actually fits the gun as intended they keep the chambers cleaner, and since the OAL fits the gun as intended, there is less rifling gap so the round will be more accurate.

[blujax01]

Originally Posted by arizona98tj

Perhaps for the same reason that many shooters purchase a 12 gauge shotgun with a 3 1/2" chamber and yet shoot 2 3/4" Walmart Federal bulk shells?

Maybe folks prefer the versatility it offers?

Why do people buy 120+ MPH automobiles or motorcycles when the speed limit is 75 MPH (or less)?

If you can answer the above, you can probably figure out an answer for your question.

You are right. I'm going out to the garage and pull 2 plug wires off my V-8. When I need more power, I'll reconnect them but for now I'll enjoy the better gas mileage of a 6 cylinder.

[blujax01]

Originally Posted by Hapworth

Here's a few off the top of my head:

- The desire to both plink and go KA-BOOM! as need or whim dictates.

- Dual-use gun where the .357 load is preferred for hunting or mountain work, and .38 is the preferred load for home defense work.

- A particular model firearm that suits one's specific needs and happens to be chambered for .357 but the shooter prefers .38, e.g., a Model 66 3" for concealed carry with a full length extractor rod and target sites, and the FBI load is the shooter's ideal round.

- Greater number of options in a situation where ammo for whatever reason is in short supply; having a duel-caliber weapon increases your odds of finding useable rounds.

Okay I suppose if I wanted to "plink" with my primary defensive weapon, I would "plink" using the same ammunition I intend to defend myself with. I do not want to be surprised by the recoil and flash of a round I'm not used to.

F=MA. My purpose of a .357 over a .38 is to propel a projectile with a larger mass at a higher velocity. If your 125 gr 38 spl+P isn't over-penetrating, then my 158 grain at the same velocity won't either.

I agree that if there is ever a shortage of .357, .38 can be substituted. But these posts lead me to believe that a lot of .357 owners have no intention of shooting .357 ammunition in them and are on a perpetual quest for "suitable" .38 spl+ defensive rounds. And if you can afford Buffalo Bore in .38 you can certainly afford Remington SJHP (or similar) in .357.

[David LaPell]

Right now I carry some 150 grain #358156 HP's behind 5.0 grains of Unique in my 649. It's a decent load, has some good velocity although I am going to work a bit more with it. I cast these a little softer than my hunting bullets so I can get more expansion at the lower velocities.

[SSGT Pride]

Winchester Ranger 9MM +P+ Law enforcement (Black Talon version)

Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Winchester Ranger Talon 127gr. +P+ HP Ammo [RA9TA] - $34.95

I dont target shoot with the stuff hardly....Just use it in my carry gun..Either MP .45 or MP .40 or my 9mm

Ernie

[riverrat38]

Originally Posted by blujax01

For the life of me I cannot fathom why one would purchase a .357 and then shoot .38's in it.

You want .38 performance buy a .38.

It might be due to the fact that they don't make them any more! Both S&W and Ruger have made all their stainless steel revolvers in .357 Mag. only. You can't get a .38 Spec SP101 or an M60 anymore. Therefor, while I do have .38 Spec M442, my "heavy" guns are .357 Mag M60 and SP101. I shoot plus P in these guns due to old age intolerance to recoil. Also, due to the fact that I carry BB hard cast WC's, which are not made in .357 Mag.
I did consider buying an M60 used in .38 Spec, but didn't find any locally, and I don't like to buy used over the internet. Even if I can return them, it costs $150 for round trip shipping and FFL in these parts.

rat

[blujax01]

My point is why buy an M60 when an M36 is the same gun chambered in .38 special? They are marked "+P" on the barrel and made for the shorter .38 cartridge.
Shooting .38's in an .357 causes lesser accuracy and dirty chambers.

Now if you already had an M60 and due to Birthday Candle Disease (I'm headed that way so I can jest!) cannot handle .357 anymore, that makes perfect sense. I had not thought of that factor and you are absolutely right. Thank you for your insight.

[riverrat38]

Originally Posted by blujax01

My point is why buy an M60 when an M36 is the same gun chambered in .38 special? They are marked "+P" on the barrel and made for the shorter .38 cartridge.
Shooting .38's in an .357 causes lesser accuracy and dirty chambers.

Now if you already had an M60 and due to Birthday Candle Disease (I'm headed that way so I can jest!) cannot handle .357 anymore, that makes perfect sense. I had not thought of that factor and you are absolutely right. Thank you for your insight.

Actually, I did consider an M36 Classic, but I really prefer stainless steel for practical reasons. As far as dirty chambers from shooting .38 Spec in .357 Mag guns go, I tend to agree. I load .38 Spec plus P level, or a bit higher, in .357 Mag brass. The only .38 Spec cartridges that I shoot are a small amount of my expensive carry ammo. Given that I clean the gun after every shooting session, I don't have any problem with dirty chambers.
Another reason for using a Mag gun for me is that I like the option to carry heavier ammo on the trail. Hopefully, I wont need to actually fire any BB 180 gr .357 Mag hard cast in a J frame gun. But, if the need arrises, I will do so , and take a pain pill later! I doubt that I will feel the hurt at the time.

rat

[shil]

Being fortunate enough to own more than one .38 snubbie, my humble take on this is: For +P-rated guns, either the Speer 135gr GDHP or a +P 158gr LHP; for non-+P, the Federal Nyclad 125gr HP.

[Doug M.]

Actually, since expansion is not something one can rely on in the revolver formats being discussed, unless one shoots some really vile loads, the all lead SWC is not a bad load. I would actually carry that in preference to the SWC-HP in most .38s. Reliable penetration, not too rank to shoot, clean good hole all the way. When I carried a .38 snub for back up 20 years ago, that was my general choice.