Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Ammo
Forum Register Expert Commentary Members List


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-24-2012, 03:57 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Asheboro, NC
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default +P in 45 ACP

I'd like your opinions on whether +P is necessary in 45 ACP for self-defense. I like what I've read about Winchester Ranger T 230 grain JHP. The +P seems to have about 10% more velocity than the standard load. I know that +P can cause more wear & tear on the handgun. I have a Glock 21. Personally, I'm leaning toward the +P. I've always thought that for self-defense, higher velocity was a good thing.

Thanks for your thoughts.









i










i like
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:46 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,272
Likes: 334
Liked 1,131 Times in 639 Posts
Default

10% is going to be around 80fps with a 230gr bullet. Do you really need an additional 80fps? It's always going to leave a .45 caliber hole, expanded or not.

However, you may have to shoot a second time and I will bet the shot to shot times will be slower with +P.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-24-2012, 08:52 PM
SWCA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,578
Likes: 1,629
Liked 2,825 Times in 1,267 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 686fan View Post
I'd like your opinions on whether +P is necessary in 45 ACP for self-defense. I like what I've read about Winchester Ranger T 230 grain JHP. The +P seems to have about 10% more velocity than the standard load. I know that +P can cause more wear & tear on the handgun. I have a Glock 21. Personally, I'm leaning toward the +P. I've always thought that for self-defense, higher velocity was a good thing.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Not necessary in my opinion.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:15 PM
SWCA Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 5,947
Likes: 886
Liked 1,516 Times in 901 Posts
Default

There was a time when .45 factory loads were getting a little weak, some not even breaking 800 FPS, but I think the Winchester Ranger loads are not that way. If the standard pressure loads are somewhere around 850-875 FPS, I would be fine with them.

I no longer have a G21 but when I did I remember using a box or two of Ranger +Ps in it. Don't recall any trouble at all. I still have about two boxes left and I have used them a time or two in my M&P45. What little testing I have done with it, it seems to shoot them very well.

When I buy more, I doubt I will order the +Ps, but if it happens that they are all I can get, I would not be unhappy. They are pretty good .45s, from what I have seen. Unless you plan to shoot a huge amount of them, I doubt they are going to do a G21 much harm, but that is JMHO.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:46 PM
colt_saa's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 71
Liked 1,591 Times in 716 Posts
Default

+P for me

Remeber velocity is squared in the energy equation.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:53 PM
SWCA Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,057
Likes: 107
Liked 368 Times in 178 Posts
Default

The extra energy of +P cannot be ignored. As mentioned above, even 100 fps in the energy equation makes a significant difference. That said, I mostly use standard pressure ammo in my 45s. A good 45 ACP SD load at standard pressure is very powerful, and I prefer the controllability that it gives me over +P. The only carry combination I have ever tried that I was uncomfortable with was +P Rangers in a Kimber Ultra Carry II. That was down right painful to shoot, and not very controlable at all!

Remember, you can't miss fast enough to win. Pick a load that allows you good performance and the confidence to make hits on target.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:13 PM
125JHP's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: high snor'n desert
Posts: 930
Likes: 185
Liked 162 Times in 106 Posts
Default

+P loads have noticeably more recoil, so you might want to figure that into your follow up shots equation. Maybe put the +p at the bottom of the mag as an indicator that its time to swap mags.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 11-24-2012, 11:14 PM
Absent Comrade
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ashland, Oregon
Posts: 1,205
Likes: 34
Liked 420 Times in 214 Posts
Default

Bigger and faster is always better in both bulllets and guns.

Emory
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 11-24-2012, 11:39 PM
mbliss57's Avatar
SWCA Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 1,817
Liked 2,127 Times in 749 Posts
Default

I carry Speer 200gr+P in my 4513TSW no rail. Higer velocity = more energy to the 2nd power . E + M*V*V
__________________
Romans 5:1
SWCA #2570
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #10  
Old 11-25-2012, 06:17 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 381
Likes: 10
Liked 106 Times in 71 Posts
Default

Your Glock can shoot any factory loaded ammo including +P loads. And unless you are a competition shooter and burn up multiple thousands of rounds of +P a month through your Glock, you should see no appreciable wear on your gun for numerous decades.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 11-25-2012, 09:56 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South East , PA . USA
Posts: 5,041
Likes: 486
Liked 1,519 Times in 839 Posts
Default

Not sure if a 230gr bullet can be driven fast enough , even at +P pressure , for reliable expansion in anything but ballistic gel.

I used to carry the original Remington 185gr SJHP+P. It was a smoking hot round and the bullet had a big hollow cavity , deeply scalloped jacket and would expand voilently. It had a good record in actual shootings.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-25-2012, 04:48 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Hoquiam, WA USA
Posts: 41
Likes: 7
Liked 12 Times in 9 Posts
Default

I carry the Speer 230 grain Gold Dot HPs in my 4506, and in no-way do I feel undergunned by not having a +P load in my pistol...A big, heavy HP works fine for me.
__________________
Dann Fassnacht
Hoquiam, WA
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-25-2012, 06:01 PM
SWCA Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SLC, Utah
Posts: 3,163
Likes: 26
Liked 521 Times in 216 Posts
Default

My department issues the Federal 230 gr. bonded Plus-P. I carry an aluminum frame Colt Commander. There isn't a huge amount of recoil difference between them and Federal red box 230 gr. FMJ.

Do they expand on human targets? Yes, they do. So did their predecessor round, the Hydra-Shok.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 11-25-2012, 06:13 PM
mag318's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,612
Likes: 10
Liked 491 Times in 252 Posts
Default

There are so many good non +P loads in 45 acp that the slight velocity gain weighed against the slower recovery time make +P loads not necessary IMO. HSTs, Gold Dots, Hydro Shoks and PDX1s to name a few all have a great track record even out of short barrels. Go with what you're comfortable with. The only +P load that I do like in this caliber are Corbon DPXs.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-25-2012, 08:51 PM
DR505's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New Mexico, USA
Posts: 2,377
Likes: 384
Liked 2,618 Times in 981 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkk41 View Post
Not sure if a 230gr bullet can be driven fast enough , even at +P pressure , for reliable expansion in anything but ballistic gel.
This^^^^^^. The extra small bit of velocity is not a huge factor for performance, but can be an issue for follow up shots, noise, blast, recoil, etc.

The fact of the matter is that a pistol is a poor choice for a defensive weapon anyway...I was always taught to use my pistol to fight my way to my rifle.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-26-2012, 12:03 AM
DWalt's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas
Posts: 6,341
Likes: 1
Liked 1,191 Times in 887 Posts
Default

If you can't do the job with a .45 ACP standard FMJ ball round, you should be using a shotgun. No problem, I suppose, in using them in your carry gun while carrying, but I would avoid shooting very many in practice for economic reasons alone if for no other reason. Recovery for follow-up additional shots will be impaired if you use +P.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-26-2012, 03:07 PM
Checkman's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 616
Likes: 470
Liked 288 Times in 104 Posts
Default

My department issues the Federal 230 grain +P HST JHP to the officers who carry the Glock 21 and Glock 30 (detectives). I am one of a few who have opted to carry the G19 in case you're wondering. Anyway we have had a couple officer involved shootings since the switch to the +P 45. It did it's job - no problems.
__________________
I type. Therefore I am.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-26-2012, 03:47 PM
LimaCharlie's Avatar
US Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 310
Likes: 29
Liked 273 Times in 131 Posts
Default

A Glock will handle +P rounds with no problems. I have a G20SF 10mm and shoot the Buffalo Bore +P+ ammo with no issues.

My normal carry gun is a 1911. I carry the Winchester PDX1 230 grain in them because they are at the top of the standard range for energy and work well in all of my 1911s. Shooting a steady diet of very hot +P in a 1911, can cause premature wear, cracked frames, and cracked slides.
__________________
U.S. Army, retired
NRA Patron
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:11 AM
ArchAngelCD's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: PA, USA
Posts: 4,060
Likes: 166
Liked 854 Times in 566 Posts
Default

What a shame the marketing weenies have so convinced so many shooters you must have more velocity to make ammo any good. I guess data for the .45 Auto with over 100 years of stopping a man size target is made up. Oh yeah, and the +P costs more too so it must be better!
__________________
Freedom is never free!!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:19 AM
HotRoderX's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 720
Likes: 164
Liked 346 Times in 156 Posts
Default

I say just stick with standard rounds. I am not a huge fan of +P my self. To me the extra recoil does not justify the real world difference a 100 our so FPS is going to make.

Has there been any real world evidence to prove that +P ammo stops a threat in fewer shots?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-27-2012, 11:29 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,943
Likes: 0
Liked 199 Times in 127 Posts
Default

Bullet type and construction will matter more than velocity. That said, I believe 230 gr. bullets generally suffer from lack of velocity in .45 ACP factory loads and could benefit from a few more FPS.

Dave Sinko
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-27-2012, 12:13 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 2,549
Likes: 24
Liked 709 Times in 452 Posts
Default

+p,+p,+P...................

Sergeant York only had a 9mm he got off a German.........
Korea had just standard 45 ammo................

+1 for the standard stuff................
its all about the "New style" of bullets that do the job.

If you notice, Speer does not go for maximum velositys but makes improvments instead on their bullets not how much powder they shove into the cases.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #23  
Old 12-31-2012, 12:19 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default +Ps in MP45.

I read somewhere that a Winchester PDX1 230 grain is NOT +P. I thought it was! Anyway my question is this In the MP45 manual it says +P ammo is not recomended due to the high pressures it generates. SO can i shoot PDX1 through this gun or not?

thanks
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-31-2012, 12:39 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: paulding county Georgia
Posts: 73
Likes: 55
Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Default

My opinion is in a lighter pistol I wouldn't use +p . But in full size pistols I could see an advantage . I have a 645 & I'm intending to change my springs & use +p almost exclusively . I like 357 mag & in my revolvers I prefer a 357 to a 38 but in my 44special mag I carry 44special specials. To me , knockdown power & velocity needs to be weighed against over penetration.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-31-2012, 01:05 PM
SWCA Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Piedmont, NC
Posts: 1,107
Likes: 184
Liked 758 Times in 306 Posts
Default

Timely post, as I'm about to go sit in a deer stand with only a Colt Commander on my hip, loaded with Hornady .45 ACP +P 230 gr. XTP's.

The area, and any shot presented will be of the 'bowhunter' scenario and anything 'iffy' will be passed up.
Have all the confidence in the world in it.
__________________
Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Ammo Thread, +P in 45 ACP in Ammunition-Gunsmithing; I'd like your opinions on whether +P is necessary in 45 ACP for self-defense. I like what I've read about ...
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:14 AM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)