So I went to the gun show this morning at the Exchange Park Fairgrounds in Ladson SC. First off, there had to be 2 thousand people there. I waited over a hour just to get in the door. Georgia Arms was there of course, and you could not even get within 50 feet of their booth. It was terrible. I had planned on buying some 45 cal SWC lead bullets for reloading, but the crowd was terrible. I ventured around the rest of the show for a hour or so checking things out. I found on vendor selling "canned heat" Basically it is just bulk ammo in a metal can. They were selling small cans of 5.56 (500 per box) for $400 each! I am so glad I got rid of my AR's. Sad thing is people were actually buying that. I am all for a free market, but that is just plain taking advantage of people.

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Want a toy? Buy a plastic gun

I believe in capitalism, but that is plain gouging your brothers and sisters!

I recently went to one here in Wisconsin and found that if I avoided the AR - 5.56 tables there were actual deals to be had. Of course I was looking for stuff much older than I. In general the shows have been massively crowded and admission prices have gone up.

There's a show going on this weekend in my area too but I've decided not to attend for the same reasons. I've been hearing stories everywhere of long lines and inflated prices. What is the point of just paying the entrance fee just to look around? Hopefully by summer or fall things will have calm down.

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Ephesians 6 (Armor of God)

Same here in Texas.
I won't be back at a gun show until the amount of people lessen to the amount found prior to 12/12.

You have to sell at replacement cost unless you are never going to buy again. Why should someone sell you his last case of 5.56 at $350 when it will cost him $800 to replace it? That is a $450 gift from the seller to the buyer.

It reminds me of a seller at a motorcycle rally who was selling some hard-to-find driving lights for $400.

Buyer: Your price is too high, another seller here has them priced at $350.

Seller: Then go buy them from him.

Buyer: I can't. He is sold out of them.

Seller: Then his price is too high. When I am out of them I only charge $300.

We do not know for sure, but I doubt that the cartridges were made with recently perchased components. If they were, then there would be some justification for the higher prices.

Magster, do you believe in auctions? At an auction products are sold for the highest price anyone is willing to pay. Only one man can win an item and he pays more than anybody else is willing to pay! Is that fair?

You sell products for what they are worth, not what someone wishes they cost.

I have a new AR for sale and I want to get $1600 for it. Why would I sell it for $800 if someone is willing to pay me $1600?

And if someone else says they'll give me a million dollars for it I'll take it!!

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Kirk / Spock 2020

I know that everything is OK. But $35 for a plastic bag of 20 .223 rounds is questionable. So is $2,995 for an M-4. So is $10 for a 5-pack of 12 ga. slugs/buckshot. And many of us are the same folks who always attend these shows, and with our wallets. This is what I have seen at Vegas shows. There is one today, I do not plan to attend.

Following Gunbroker gives a good sense of where the market really is. LGS are a little behind the curve, and gun show dealers are way behind, by my observation.

Give it time...

I try to conduct business wih an ethical and moral standard. Capitalism at the expense of ethical and moral principal is not my way.

Ammo makers are feeling the same crunch- 650$ for 1K 223 ball insane?? Maybe but if you must pay 575 to get the components to make more it is just commonsense. I will agree that some people are taking advantage of the situation, but not all. Of the AR's I had for sale, none went online, they went to local people, family, previous customers. I sold one as a consignment gun at a fair price, the owner wanted 2K more and I suggested he get someone else to sell/transfer it. I still have AR's and If someone needs one I will sell but not at 2000- that is too high. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Here in my area we have a flea market that holds a small gun show once a month. Until last night there has been a complete and total absence of any type of "assault" rifle, even the M1 Garand. Last night I saw an indication that things are just starting to come back, saw at least 10 AR-15's with prices ranging between 1700 and 2500 bucks, a lot of AK's at prices about double what they were 3 months ago and even saw one S&W M&P 10 priced at 2295.00.

Also saw lots and lots of ammo layed out on the tables, more than I've seen for probably 4 months at one of these shows. All of it, even the unbranded reloads was IMO overpriced. Really, 22 bucks for some basement reload of the 40 S&W in 180 gn. hardball, not for this fellow thank you. Firty round boxes of 40 caliber Winchester White Box were labled at 40 dollars which I found a bit stunning. The same dealer wanted 49.50 for the Winchester 147 gn. 7.62 x 51 NATO, that's almost 2.50 per round for practice. Bascially, loaded ammunition ranged from high to levels that would lead me to suspect a drinking problem on the part of the seller. I did not see anyone walking around with obviously heavy bags of ammo.

Reloading components on the other hand ranged between reasonable to just slightly high. Personally I picked up a box of 500, 40 caliber 180 gn. FMJ bullets for 92 bucks, which as I found when I got home is 2 bucks less than Midway was charging for the same bullet. BTW, I already know I need to shop around for bullets, however the usual internet sources are still showing sold out so you take what you can find as long as the price isn't stupid high. Also picked up 2000 CCI 500 and 1000 CCI 300 primers for 40 dollars a box, a bit high but not outrageous when you consider the cost of shipping HAZMAT.

Is this guy taking unfair advantage of people who absolutely must have a first phase chief's blanket but are not millionaires? What a gouger!

First Phase Chief's Blanket sets record at John Moran Auctioneers - YouTube

So how much are you selling your ammo for?

Welcome to the 21st Century. Shooters, weather you had ever met or not, shared an unwritten bond of honesty and integrity. Not any more.
It's a cutthroat business that may or may not send you what you pay for and couldn't care less for their customers.

Bob

supply and demand .... how does it work?

All the money in the world means nothing, if you've sold your soul to attain it.

It has been almost 2 full months since the ammo/gun insanity has been in motion and I have never, even on this board, read posts by as many first-time gun owners. This tells me that the number of consumers of these items has increased significantly. It comes as no surprise that the resale market has reacted as it has. At this time, there is still a huge demand and very little supply. Why does an individual who had the foresight to purchase an abundance of ammo or guns instead of buying 2 bass boats or go on a couple of cruises a year have to sell at little or no profit? As far as a brotherhood of shooters is concerned, my opinion is that this current run has no relationship to that. Yeah, if someone was looking for only Federal Gold Medal Match .308, I can understand that allegiance if one has an excess to let go.
About a month ago I posted (I think on this forum) that a guy had approached me after church about buying some .223 ammo. I sold it to him a little bit cheaper than I had planned (about .42 per round) but he is a friend and didn't have any for his new gun. Last week I asked him how the gun shot and he admitted he had sold it and the ammo for about 50% over what he gave for them. I swore then that I was finished doing that kind of favor for people. Probably not a very Christian attitude on my part but...

My brother reluctantly sold 2 friends an AR each since they were frantic back in January. He let them go for around $900 each and made a bit on them. He told me yesterday that both guys had almost doubled their money on those guns at local shows. He wasn't mad they made money. He was upset that he had done favors for guys and they didn't appreciate it. Oh, well.

Ed

I read a comment in another thread about how in a few months things will be back to normal and "no one will remember that this ever happened."
They're right and that is part of the problem. This is not the first time this has happened and it will not be the last. If folks don't learn to "be prepared" after this and lay in a reasonable supply the next time it happens they will be surprised all over again.
The only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn anything from history!

I stopped going to local gunshows a few years back due to the lack of quality guns and excess of non gun related items, one of the last i went to I took my Wife and after a day there she remarked 'You have way better guns than anything in here'. A strong comment from a woman who is not a gun person.
The prices now are a reflection of the market, as one poster said, if the suppliers are having to pay more for thier supplies, how can they stay in business by selling for less? Prices are out the door, many new gun owners are entering the market at the exact time when product is hard to find. This is a fine example of human nature, when things are available people ignore them, when they realize things are scarce they just have to have them.
In '08, coinciding with the Election and the introduction of the Ruger LCP .380 ammo was non existant, now we are looking at the same thing with .223/5.56, prices are soaring as demand is and supplies are low. I've been telliing friends and co-workers for two decades that they had better stock up..no one listened. Now I have both coming to me almost daily wanting guns and ammo. Sorry.
The thing that blows my mind is the fact that .22 lr ammo is either gone or has gone thru the roof. It's just .22 ammo, how is it commanding $16 a box? I know I'm asking the question I just answered above but it still is mind boggling that that much .22 ammo can just get suck up in this short a time.
I handload and laid in a large supply of all I need starting during the Clinton administration and before so I'm not hurting. Just sitting back and watching all this with amazment.
RD

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Got a Phd from Hard Knocks U

YEP been there done that, If you bought a 68 camaro for 2500. and you kept it and cared for it and fixed it up would you sell it for 2500 today .Because some one is crying that it shouldnt cost more. I dont see any registered magnums going for 200.00 dollars.
Personally Im not selling anything,because I have enough for me and mine, so whats the point. Most of the home built ARs are probably junk, same with most reloads these days,anyone into this just to make money doesnt care if they sell you junk.
I figure if I sell someone 1000 rds that I bought years ago cheaper than they are going for now and later they cost me more to replace, with junk, who is the dummy.
Guys are complaining about AR prices, well-- why didnt you buy one a year ago. Maybe they will go down in the near future(probably) and then buy one, MAYBE they will NOT be available and then 1700 wont seem so bad to you. I always figure, can I pay cash for something, do I want it, and is there a chance I cant get or find it later, then I better get it and be done with it.
Personally I wonder why would you pay 600-700 for a plastic gun, that cost the company less to build, same thing, but folks are.
Some prices are going down because folks invested all their money and now they need money.
Maybe 6 months or a year from now things might get lower,MAYBE, so you got to wait it out or pay TODAYS prices. One thing is for sure, as long as the shelves are empty, prices will never go down. Good luck. Bob

It's been such a long time since I've seen a "deal" at a gunshow that I've all but stopped going. Too much "score big and be out of town by Sunday" for me.

It is all well and good to do a favor for a fellow shooter and sell them ammo for your cost a year ago or thereabouts, but when you see the same guy put it on Ebay for 2 1/2 times what you sold it to him for, it sorta saps the milk of human kindness out of your system. My (real) friends I have helped as I was able...everyone else will just have to fend for themselves. If they did not have the foresight to buy before prices went crazy, that is not my fault.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

The justification for higher prices is that someone will pay it. Companies are in business to make money not to be altruistic.

If/when prices come back down, I won't see some moral obligation for me to pay a higher price so someone else doesn't lose money on their purchase made at a higher price... What we are seeing is high school economics at work.

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Proud anachronism

There is a difference between making a profit and ripping off fellow shooters lock, stock and barrel. In the end we will be asked, were our actions justified by the ways of man or justified by the ways of God.

A very simple solution here friends. Just Don't buy it !!!
A vendor can "ASK" whatever they want to ask.
People paying these stupid prices are fools IMHO.

Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

I don't know about your kids Magster, but mine like to eat. They like a warm house and a bed.

I paid $XXX a couple days ago for a brand new M&P AR15ORLE. Does what I paid for it determine its value? They are selling for $1700. So what is MY AR worth? Is mine worth less than the guy who paid $2,000 and now has to dump it?

I'm going to sell it for as much as I can get. I don't determine the value, the market does.

Just like the baker does with bread, just like the car dealers do, just like you do.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

My replacement costs haven't gone up........neither have my selling prices. Availability is the only thing that has changed. That too will subside.

Not sure what you paid as it's redacted (especially if your kids have to eat). But I sell that rifle, when it comes in 3-4 times a month, for $1,049. My business has been around for 10 years and when the current nonsense is over, it will continue to thrive because everyone knows I'm fair even when the situation isn't. Additionally, M&P AR15ORLE is not a S&W number. What is the SKU#? Also, those who feed the fear monster by artificially raising prices are the problem as much as the blood-thirsty media is. I don't know your situation (other than what you post) so I'm not throwing you into the pile of those monster feeders. Just saying...

Fact is, no one knows how this latest round of regulation will end.

It could go back to "normal" or it could get alot worse.

You cant beleive the reports about legislators not voting because they face re-election and political sucide, "they will never pass"...we are in far different situation than any of these other attempts at regulation.

This Admin is very clever....like them or not, and dont forget the EOs that came down and understand these Agencies like CDC&P can cause policy making....like for firearm injury, death (and violence).
CDC&P;
" Its mission is to bring about policies that result in demonstrable improvements in public health—globally and at the federal, state, and local levels"

Gun Injury and Death might fit that description and ammo would be one way to reduce it....redcue ammo sales reduce injury and death...done deal. They have alot of options up their sleeves people are not considering...even with these EO's.

"They" are dead set on seeing "something" approved, and what worries me is the fence sitters, if there are some Legislators that fear losing next election but are having a "moral" delimena or catching bit pressure from "antis" about how to vote.

Heaven forbid "something else" happens prior to one of these bills being voted on.

Plus, there are more ways to skin a cat....they hold votes on bills at odd hours and when key/majority people are gone.
Suppose some lawmakers who are having this delimena mentioned above, happened to be gone? "hey, I was against this and would have voted no for this gun ban/ammo bill... but my Mother was sick so I had to go back home to____" ...Easy Peasy..he/she is off the hook and it passes.

Panic buying is a lot of this, but some may be buying because they sense the outcome may not be good.

Check out the the current Senate and House bills.... firearm and ammo bills and see what they are trying to do.

Thomas Net will list them all introduced....use the word "firearms" and "ammunition" to see lists of bills introduced and then select to read "text" of bill.....esp read Senate Bill; S174...calling for background check for ammo sales.

Link to Congress Bill Finder Search Tool;

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/thomas.php

Dont forget States trying to pass bills also....

All it takes is one of these bills at federal level to make it out to comm and go to vote.

Bottom line: hoping things return to normal, but honestly, nothing would surprise me.

LeeVance is spot-on.

I was visiting from Ohio and in the Bass Pro in Foxboro, Mass. this past summer. I got into a discussion with the salesman about the differences between State regs. Not only do they require a Mass. Firearm Permit to purchase ammunition, they require it to purchase reloading supplies! I asked about a reloading manual and the counter guy had to ask his boss before letting me know that I could buy a book without a permit!

I do not understand why people are panicking and just throwing a lot of money at anyone for guns------at normal prices the manufacturers are making over 100% profits. Now they are being panicked by Mr Lapierre's madness and irrational ranting about the government coming to take all your guns----somehow they think and believe the idiotic proposition that if they buy some cheap piece of **** gun at twice what it is worth they will hold off Uncle Sam-----it's obvious thay have never faced the ATF or SWAT teams--------want to hold them off and you will need at leasdt a battery of 105 howitzers.
I have been looking a gun auctions on Gunbroker for Glock 19 Gen4--where prices ar bid up to over $700 and the idiots that are bidding don't even know if the 19s they are bidding on have had the fixes needed for the recoil springs and ejectors.

You can but a Glock 19 Gen 4 with three mags direct from Glock for $598---you will wait for a few months but you will get is direct from factory with the latest fixes incorporated. Their Law enforcement and military (plus retiree) program sells them at $498---and then we have the idiots spooked by the NRA bidding $700+

And apparently some people are more stupid than others.

I agree that this is not the time to augment your existing gun collection and I'm sorry that you're in a tizzy about the price of new Glocks.

If you don't think 50 million free American gun owners gives the government pause, you need to go read some more.

Oh, and thank you for your service.

You've decided this situation is the NRA's fault?

Same thing here in Va Bch,had a show this week end and man the Gouging is not the word for it.It's a crying shame too,it's like they want to put the meat slam to us.Bad thing is it might come around to Haunt them in the end.

Terrible prices at the gun show? I bet the sellers didn't post that. They might have posted "great prices". Its all in your perspective. If they guy you felt had terrible prices sold all or most of his ammo and guns by the end of the day, I'd suggest they were fair prices. If he priced them lower and sold out by noon, he was too cheap. Prices are changing, so get used to it. Anyone with 2 or 5 or 10 year old prices is going to take a loss.

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Dick Burg

I figure one day the shoe will be on the other foot and then there will be a glut of guns on the market. I sure hope I'm right.

Where'd you go? I went to the Jefferson show the week of the 10th. Saw some pretty good stuff, actually. There was a couple nice deer rifles I would have bought had he not been doing waiting periods. Yes. On rifles. And he would not negotiate at all.

Of course... there's always going to be "those guys". One had 4 boxes of 7.62x25 tokarev. He advertised as $99/box and get a free gun. Wouldnt sell it without. There were also the people with $1/round 9mm and .223 surplus, $100 pmags, and my favorite, a Wasr-10 AK-47 with a $1750 price tag. He crossed out the $1750 and wrote "$999 GUN SHOW SPECIAL" underneath it. Came with no mags. Real steal of a deal, right?

The sku# is 311003LE. If you have any of those right now that you are willing to sell for $1,049 I'd like to buy them all. They are currently selling on the open market for $1,700 and up. For those reading that don't know this particular sku, it's just the LE version of the M&PAR15 OR (Optics Ready).

If I were to sell the gun at $1,049 I would still be making over $350, or nearly 50% mark-up.

So what is fair? I say the price is what the market determines. I don't sell guns, I don't have a list of customers that will come back. If I give someone a great deal all I have done is left money on the table.

Now if my brother or a friend wants it, I'll sell it to him for what I paid for it.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

It's simple enough...if you don't like the price, don't pay it. Wait and see, maybe things will calm down and prices will drop. Don't go all preachy on people for selling things at the current market value. Any vendor that is selling ammo at a low markup will sell it quick, usually before the public is let in. It will then be on someone else's table for more money. I've been working shows for years, seen it happen.

As to dealers selling guns or ammo at old markups I have to wonder how they are paying the bills. The stores around here are pretty empty, no product to sell means no money coming in. I can only find one store in the area that has much ammo and they have always been much higher priced than anyone else, being a bait and tackle/carryout the guns and ammo are not their main income.

It's a crazy market right now, I hope things do go back to normal but I am really beginning to doubt they will. Availability (hopefully!) will improve but the price structure probably won't get back to were it was before this started. And don't forget that the prez and his cohorts are determined to get something out of this....if they can't get all they want they will not stop trying for any restrictions they can impose (all while hoping for another "incident"). We gun owners have to stay organized and keep after our representatives or we may regret the "good old days" when we had gunshows, high prices or not!

Well, I won't pay what I consider outrageous prices for ammo. But 'outrageous' is a personal definition that really depends on the individual and their circumstances. If you were some guy in a rough part of a big city and feared for your family because of the violent home invasion robberies in the area you saw featured in the news, you might have a different perspective than the guy who is already set. In a free society with a free market, pricing is used to allocate scarce resources. The guy who is set might not want the 357 ammo he has, go for the price he paid for it. A buyer has to offer a price to the seller which will coax that resource voluntarily from him. Is it a few dollars more, or 2-3 times the original price ? That will depend on the individuals and their needs. And it also depends on others who have those same needs and are competing in the free market for those same limited resources.
The alternative is to have prices dictated and frozen. (Theyve tried that many times in the past.) What happens when this is done ? There are vast shortages because no one lets the resource go; the price is below that which would naturally occur at that time in the free market. Those that have it, keep it - figuring theyll just use it themselves. The guy who needed ammo and could afford to buy a few boxes at the much higher price, now can't find it anywhere at all.

You may not even have to pay lots more money to coax the ammo from a fellow. Do you have some service, skill, or other item you can exchange him for that he would value more than the extra ammo he has beyond his immediate needs as he determines it ? (Maybe he has plenty of 7.62x39, so he'd trade off his .223 which he doesnt shoot as much, for example.) A plumber, mechanic, carpenter, or anyone else may be able to work out a deal with someone to get some ammo. You might have some item sitting in storage or up in an attic that you never use that another person would like for some of their ammo.

No more gun shows for me until the madness goes away..too many people, too little to chose from, and prices over the top.

I agree on that point - no gunshows for me either. The crowd psychology there doesnt generally work in a buyers favor. (Though I could probably do very well selling some stuff there. )

I believe there will be a big price kick back as soon as the issue on assault weapons is resolved...Of coarse if nothing gets resolved and this political ball keeps bouncing around then I`m guessing it will go on until the prices hit the ceiling....I believe $2000+ on AR`s will kill the market and prices will have to fall not for the expensive guns but the average ones and the average ones are where the numbers are...These companies still have to make money and have cash flow to stay in business....

I admit I sold all my AR`s except 1... I sold them for 2 times what I had in them and I wont buy again until prices go down or I will build a couple....

I think ammo prices will go down for most calibers except 223... I believe politics have forced Mfg`s to get the prices high and keep them there....Jim

jimjc I agree with everything except your last statement, and you're close with that one.

Politics has forced folks to think about the value of their .223 ammunition, which in turn has increased the demand, which has decreased the supply, which has driven up the price.

Too bad we don't have Blue Book values for modern production ammo.....then we would know what it is *really* worth in the marketplace.

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" I said, good DAY! "

I have to say one good thing I've seen from this "crisis" is a whole lot of bargains on older revolvers and such that people are turning loose of in order to fund their sudden urge to buy plastic and feed it. I personally feel the need to keep a stock of things that I might need to ride out storms like this and it's amazing to me what a case of ammo buys right now :-).

Actually, when you purchase bulk guns from LEO providers to re-sell your are not only taking life saving resources away from those who actually need them, but you are also violating the companies policy. Should you be caught the company can potentially hold you liable. ALSO, per ATF and FFL laws, you cannot purchase a gun with the intent of selling it for a profit without a FFL license.

I have attended very few gun shows. Maybe it is just where I live, but the last couple that I have visited had more ARMY surplus items;tents, cots, etc., ladies handbags, costume jewelry, and other items than guns. When a vendor or individual rents space at a gun show, are there any guidelines as to what will be displayed? As for prices on anything, you can always say no. I somehow get the idea that some of the sellers don't want to sell their items. If they did, what would they do for entertainment, and in some cases, human contact. I also think that there are those who would rather argue than talk. "This 629 came in this type C presentation case." "No, it didn't." "Yes, it did." DLB

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Be Kind! John 3:16,14:27