Displeased with Federal's response after ammo problems

[Erich]

I don’t usually gripe about customer service -in fact, my experience with firearms-related customer service - and reloading related customer service in particular - have been very good. But I had a bad experience with Federal just now, and thought I’d share it, because it was so unusual in relation to the service I’ve gotten on other ammunition issues.

So, yesterday I had brought a brand-new silver box of Federal Classic ammo to the range to try in my new-to-me pre-Model 30 Improved I-frame. The Federal Classic ammo was 98-gr RNL .32 S&W Long, part no. C32LB, lot number 3 19J155. Federal ammo is more expensive in this caliber than Eastern European stuff, but I figured the good thing about using big maker ammo from Federal would be that I’d be able to reload the empties. Based on decades of past experience, I figured I’d get quality brass after firing the low-pressure .32 S&W Long factory loads.

The ammo shot well enough (group at 10 yards), though was pretty tame (M 667.8/ES 78.95/SD 32.31).




But wait! Upon firing, I noticed that one round did a very odd spurt of stuff out of the bbl/cyl gap, and was surprised to find that I had to hammer on the ejector rod to get the rounds out of the cylinder. Out of five rounds, four split - and one had its primer pop out the back.









This was NOT the fault of the gun - I fired four other loadings on the same outing (two handloads - ironically in Federal cases, and two factory loadings by S&B and Aguila) with no problems whatsoever.

So, since this ammo wasn’t going to give me the reloadable cases that I’d been after, I figured I’d contact ATK; on advice of friend, I went to their site and filled out a contact form:

Four out of five cases split on a new silver box of Federal Classic .32 S&W Long ammo, part no. C32LB, lot number 3 19J155. One primer protruded. The cases had to be forcibly extracted by hammering the ejector rod. This was not a problem with the gun, as several other loadings performed flawlessly.

Here are some photographs:

i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd222/505Erich/Handguns/2013-03-10_11-34-34_709.jpg

i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd222/505Erich/Handguns/2013-03-10_11-34-51_820.jpg

I deliberately purchased what I thought to be quality Federal ammo because I wanted the spent cases for reloading. Please contact me about this.

I was really surprised when Federal wrote back a terse, “Go Away” email:

You bought old ammo, it has been sitting on the shelf. The brass split due to stress corrosion cracking. It was manufactured in 2003.

Thanks
Federal Ammunition

I was pretty amazed by this, and responded:

Are you kidding me, or are you just insulting me? I've been happily reloading much of the same brass since the '80s, and you're going to tell me that your new, never-fired brass from only ten years ago will split when fired in a low-pressure factory loading in the .32 S&W Long cartridge.

I’ve not heard back. I’m not pleased with Federal/ATK’s handling of the situation; I would have expected that Federal/ATK would stand behind its products or care more about its customers.

[pps]

Hmmm....so...their ammunition has an "implicit expiration date" at which point the ammo becomes dangerous to the user? And this date is posted WHERE? lol

[Retired LTC, USAR]

There is just so many things wrong with their response........and what the hell is "stress corrosing cracking"?

Sounds like this answer was given by their "Ammunition Expert"!!!!

[Nevada Ed]

It is too bad you can't find a re-call on any of that ammo.........over the ten years.

New, NEVER FIRED brass,splitting !! Hellow !!

I would expect them to admit it was a bad box of Brass and fix the problem.................

and yes, thats why we buy top of the line BRASS...........
because it usually last a long time,due to the process they
use to make it.

Sorry you reached a Butt Head.

[gwpercle]

I guess since they are selling every round they can produce and running 24 hours a day, " customer satisfaction " has gotten lost in the shuffle. I have found that when you have a problem and the person who replies is no help , or gives you a B. S. response, like the one you got, ask to speak to thier boss...You may have to make a phone call and speak to 2 or 3 people but the bosses know how important repeat business is and when you get ahold to someone who gives a darn you will get the satisfaction you deserve.
I had this happen at Midway..but after " let me speak to your boss " just once I got more than my problem solved.
Call them..they might even have a toll free number. What happened isn't normal and they should be concerend.
Gary

[brokenprism]

Originally Posted by Erich

I’m not pleased with Federal/ATK’s handling of the situation; I would have expected that Federal/ATK would stand behind its products or care more about its customers.

They do care. If you're Dept of Homeland Security. : )

Try this: Buy billions of rounds and see if the service improves.

[rwsmith]

Well, now we on this forum know that Federal produces ammunition with poor quality components that are not expected to last past a few years.

[M29since14]

That's interesting. I had a similar thing happen with .32 H&R Magnums back in the '90s some time. I forget what their explanation was but what you said has a familiar ring to it. Seems they said the brass was not properly annealed, which would go along with that explanation. They were decent enough about it and sent me about twice as many boxes of ammo as I returned to them. Then and now, I guess. The whole industry must be in hyperdrive and folks like us are so far down the priorities list we're not even on a list.

[R. G. Amos]

Since you said you just bought the ammo, I would take whatever of the ammo you have remaining along with Federal's response to your note to the dealer from whom you purchased the ammo and ask him why he is selling old ammo. Stress corrosion cracking implies a crack that was initiated at a corrosion site under a load.

[Maddmax]

When you do call. Be very friendly and ask whom you are speaking to and jot that down along with time of day & date (everything "should" be logged an their end). Now you have some one to come back on when/if stuff hits any fan blades. Don't like their response,ask for a Super Visor. I'd chase that all the way to the top dog.

Look at it as keeping others SAFE from their faulty product.

I wouldn't let the box and what's left over out of your sight. I'd also get on the vendor about "digging up old unsafe ammo and selling it".

[max]

Well Erich, did you mention you were a hot shot lawyer? I am sure you did something wrong to cause this. Probably an improper grip or perhaps incorrect sight picture?

[andyo5]

Stress corrosion cracking implies that the brass contained residual stress, which would lead to corrosion over time. The brass should not be under stress unless it was not properly annealed after forming. If this is the case (no pun intended), then it is clearly their fault for having skipped a manufacturing step. And they want to blame you for that?
As others have said, I have been reloading range brass with 1980s head stamps on them without any problems. And once just for grins, I disassembled some 1918-dated 45ACP cartridges, replaced the old primers, reassembled them and fired them. They worked and the cases were just fine afterwards.
I would be offended by the reply that you received.

[smitholdtimer]

Please keep us informed as to the final out come, I'm sure you are going to submit a new complaint to someone of higher authority! You made contact on Monday and I've been told Monday & Friday are not the best days for manufacturing facilities, could be the same for the Customer Service Department.

[alwslate]

I would guess that in a low volume selling round like this that the
ammo was not actually manufactured by Federal and so the brass is
not in fact high quality reloadable brass. Not to criticize but if I were
in your shoes I would have tried to find new quality brass to buy and
skipped the factory ammo debacle. I have learned that just because
factory ammo is packaged and priced as their premium line doesn't
mean it's anything more than mediocre. They should be willing to
replace your box with a new box of ammo but I doubt you'll find good
quality long lived brass in factory ammo for low pressure rounds that
are not often reloaded.

[xcop]

So what Federal is saying unintentionally or not is all their ammo could do this in ten years. Interesting position.

[jaymoore]

When did ATK aquire Federal? Seems like it was after 2003, but I wasn't paying much attention.

BTW, Federal's Gold Medal Match .308 Winchester ammo has been known to have soft brass and be on the short side of headspace specs for quite some time. Usually it's good for 3-4 loadings before primer pockets have loosened to the point of uselessness. If it didn't shoot so well for the price (pre-feeding frenzy), it would likely be a complete sales failure.

[J. R. WEEMS]

I haven't read all the answers here but can tell you this a a CROCK of the first order. Some years ago I had the same problem with their 32 MAG. Several pieces of brass split from each box, it was NEW -- Also, several pcs., of brass split from each box of the ten I bought of just new brass. The answer was the brass is just too thin, period. I finally went through all I had, weeding out the split cases as they appeared. I went to STARLINE brass and NEVER had the problem again. I continue to be amazed at the people who proffer up such dumb a** excuses when their product is not up to quality standards. Also those people who think all reloaders are idiots trying to blow themselves up.

[Erich]

Thank you all for the supportive replies - a friend who knows people kindly offered to get this to the attention to the bigwigs at Federal, but I'm less concerned about being made whole than about letting people know about the kind of support they can expect as shooters and loaders.

[coach22]

Is what you describe any worse than putting
"Low Recoil" on their 357 Magnum ammo,
when it feels the same as their ammo not so marked?
It's like the markets who put "kosher for Passover"
on everything in their store 2 weeks before the holiday.
Having said that, all my 45's are loaded with Hydra Shoks.

[M29since14]

King-Tappan sights on that old beast?

[coach22]

Installed at King's, with a Barsto barrel & bushing
handpicked & fitted by Barsto himself.

[M29since14]

There you go! I never saw one of those that would shoot as they came from the factory.

[blujax01]

Originally Posted by coach22

...
Having said that, all my 45's are loaded with Hydra Shoks.

All my 45's are loaded with Blujax' Finest.

[Lost Lake]

I would think stress corrosion cracking would be caused by the stress of corrosion expanding the brass.

Dissimilar metals reacting to create corrosion and that expansion cracking the brass. Or perhaps corrosion from another source but between the bullet and the brass.

Corrosion expands like ice or rust.

Just a thought.

[Erich]

Is what you describe any worse than putting
"Low Recoil" on their 357 Magnum ammo,
when it feels the same as their ammo not so marked?

Well, yes . . . my ammo is not really fit for its intended purpose.

[andyo5]

I would not let the inconsiderate and irresponsible comments of one employee of Federal Cartridge Company define my overall attitude towards that company. They make many fine products, and I doubt that the president or CEO of the company would appreciate the comments that were emailed to you.

[moxie]

Agree with Andy. Call federal, or ATK, and ask to speak with a supervisor. You know how to do the rest.

[armenius]

Several years ago I had a Glok-Kaboom! while using Federal 40S&W.Called Glock who said ship gun with no charges for repair.Was told problem was ammo and expect call from Federal.Within 10 minutes I got a call and told to return ammo for replacement.They returned more ammo than I sent and all was Premium Hydrashock while some of the original was FMJ practice ammo.I was treated great by Glock and Federal at no cost.
The.bad ammo was the old FC headstamp,the new Federal stamped.

[andyems10]

I also had some trouble with Federal HSTs in .40 recently. I contacted them about these rounds that deformed after loading them into my 40c magazine. They told me it was due to the magazine spring being too tight and that tends to happen with new magazines. I really didn't know how I needed to avoid putting rounds in a new magazine to keep this from happening. Anyway, they had me send them the deformed rounds which was about 10 of the 50 in the box. They told me they would inspect them when they received them. I sent them but all I ever got was a reply telling me they's send me a new box of 50 to make things right. Good enough. This was back sometime in January. They kept telling me they were on the way, but never came. I'd ask again, and they'd tell me they were ordered again. Back and forth for about 6 weeks being told they had been "ordered" several times but they never did ship them. They never gave me a good reason why they were never shipped after being ordered. Last week they finally told me they were out of stock and instead of bullets I'd be getting a check to compensate me for replacement. I told them I'd rather have the ammo than the cash, but they said they had no idea when they would get them back in stock and they were compensating me with a check instead. Not a bad outcome, sent in 10 rounds and getting $30 back, but I'd still rather have the ammo.

[desi2358]

Originally Posted by R. G. Amos

Since you said you just bought the ammo, I would take whatever of the ammo you have remaining along with Federal's response to your note to the dealer from whom you purchased the ammo and ask him why he is selling old ammo. Stress corrosion cracking implies a crack that was initiated at a corrosion site under a load.

With the current unrest and shortages in the ammo market you are liable to find a lot of old ammo on gunshop shelves. More than a few dealers are digging into their own personal stockpiles just to have something to sell so they can keep paying the bills. I've shot ammo a lot older than that without cases splitting or sticking.

Whoever it was at Federal that answered the OP is blowing smoke. That ammo is clearly defective, probably due to faulty annealing and they should take care of it. At what timeframe do they decide their ammo is no longer serviceable and free of any warranty obligation? Do they need to start putting a "Use By" date on the boxes? By any reasonable standard that ammo is not old and it should perform as required.

[chief38]

Erich,
I've not had any dealings with federal or ATK, but just as you shouldn't write-off a new restaurant because of a lousy waitress, don't write them off just yet because you happened to get a Bozo on the line. If you have the patience to go higher up in the Company and still get the same numb-nuts response, then I could see that they have their butts up their kazoo! Give a Supervisor a call and see what they say. i would also make them aware of how your call was initially handled.

Regards,
Chief38

[nexus010]

Just for a comparison i hought a box of .22 lr golden bullets from Remington and the whole box was defective. The bullet was loosee in the brass case. They sent me packing material to send the box back. They tested it and said it meet there specs. But still the box cost me 22 bucks and they sent me a check back for 60 bucks. Thats what i call service, and pretty cool too. Ahh, just thought id mention that.

[Hondo44]

There was a recall printed in gun magazines on Fed 32 H&R mag ammo with the hollow point bullet some 10 years or more ago. They admitted it was bad brass tempering/annealing. My cases looked exactly like yours. Fed replaced any ammo sent back at the time.

Your respondent is ducking Fedaral's culpability.