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03-29-2013, 03:42 PM
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Educate me on the .38 Super
The .38 Super has always been something that has lurked around in the far regions of my firearms knowledge. A recent article in a gun rag has tweaked my attention.
Can anyone tell me anything about it? I know one advantage is higher capacity in the 1911 platform. Is that it or are there other good things I should know about the round?
Any good for home defense, CCW?
Educate me!
Thank you.
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03-29-2013, 03:57 PM
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The .38 Super is interesting. Nominal bullet diameter is .356, but usually it is loaded with .355 (9mm) bullets. Usually, this works fine. The case has a tiny rim (semi-rimmed), and the original Colts were designed to allow the case to headspace on that rim. Accuracy was frequently lousy becase that tiny rim would often slip right past the barrel hood where it was supposed to rest, resulting in the cartridge actually headspacing on the extractor. Most Supers these days headspace on the case mouth like other semiauto cartridges, and this cures the problem.
With a good bullet it is definitely a decent self-defense round, surpassing the 9mm P and edging in to light-bullet .357 mag. territory.
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03-29-2013, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohiojerry
The .38 Super has always been something that has lurked around in the far regions of my firearms knowledge. A recent article in a gun rag has tweaked my attention.
Can anyone tell me anything about it? I know one advantage is higher capacity in the 1911 platform. Is that it or are there other good things I should know about the round?
Any good for home defense, CCW?
Educate me!
Thank you.
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When the Super was initially introduced, about 1929 or 1930, a year or so before the 38/44 S&W Special, and about 4 years before the .357 Magnum, it was billed as a cartridge that could stop any animal in North America. It was Colt's answer to the prayers of "Sportsmen, Shooters, Police Officers, Explorers and Firearm Enthusiasts," or so said the advertisements.
The ads listed the cartridge as 130 grain at 1,200 foot seconds.
Well, this was a big deal in that era when most people thought a .32 was a good stopper.
Now, of course, we know that the original Super was about the ballistic equivalent of the Winchester 9mm +P+ 127 grain load which steps out at about 1,250 foot seconds velocity.
So, the truth is that the Super is, in essence at hot 9mm, which is also about all that can be said about the strange little .357 SIG bottleneck nightmare, which was a marketing effort by SIG to confuse police administrators and weapons committees into believing they were buying the .357 Magnum in an auto pistol case when, in fact, they were getting a 9mm +P+ in a necked down .40 S&W case.
Remember the diameter of a .357 Magnum is .357, while the Super is .356 and the 9mm and .357 SIG are both .355. So, with the Super, you are getting a 9mm at a higher velocity than the non +P round.
Here it is:
9mm +P+ (.355 bullet): 127 grain at 1,250
38 Super (.356 bullet): 130 grain at 1,200
.357 SIG (.355 bullet): 125 grain at 1,300 to 1,350
Truthfully, I doubt there is any person or animal on Earth who could tell the difference when hit by any of these, all of which are less at almost everything than the .357 Magnum revolver round.
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03-29-2013, 04:45 PM
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Later adds put it at 130 @ 1300 which is why I load too all of the time. My standard load is 4756 with a 130 grn LRN at 1300 FPS which is a lot of fun.
The posts above are correct. It is a .355 caliber hot rod. Lots of fun to shoot, less recoil than a 45, more power than a 9mm. On par with the 357 sig.
My experience with my now 5 38 supers (mostly 1911's) are that the round is intrinsically accurate, easy to reload for, easy to shoot well and lots of fun because bullets are cheaper than 45. You get more of a rap from the super than a shove like a 45.
If you are interested, get one. No regrets on my end but be advised, they are addictive.
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03-29-2013, 04:46 PM
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In addition to what was said above, I think the difference in capacity of a 1911 standard frame is one round, possibly two. In addition, finding factory ammo or components is likely going to be trickier than for a more common caliber. If you want lots of ammo, a double stack mag 9mm does the trick, although there are .38 Super 1911 clones with double stack mags. Finding those mags may become a problem at some time in the future.
Historically, the .38 Super was a high pressure version of Colts .38 ACP catridge from the early parts of the 1900's. It was a ballistic twin of a slew of other cartidges, most of which are obsolete (9mm Bergman-Bayard, 9mm Steyr, 9mm Largo, 9mm Browning Long[which may be European terminology for the .38 ACP]). The Super did develop quite a rep for penetration of auto bodies back in the Prohibition era.
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03-29-2013, 05:52 PM
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Have two 38 Supers and agree with all of the above. It is seen carried illegally in Mexico by criminals and Zeta types. There is a myth that the 38 Super is legal in La Republica Mexicana. However "38 Colt Super y Commando (?)" is the one and only caliber pistol specifically prohibited in the SEDENA literature. In other words, don't even fill out the form if this is what you want.
Very flat shooting over long range and accurate, as mentioned, in modern Colt and Springfield Armory pistols.
True commercial 38 super ammo comes with cases nickel plated to differentiate from 38 ACP which is left original brass finish and now collectible.
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Last edited by WB5MHA; 03-29-2013 at 06:06 PM.
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03-29-2013, 05:54 PM
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All the info above nails it.
I am a 38 Super fanatic and highly recommend it.
Just remember, it is not ammo you'd see on the shelf (no pun intended; when things return to normal) almost anywhere. It is a re loaders cartridge unless you have cash to burn and order it.
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03-29-2013, 08:03 PM
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My 38 Spl match gun was a converted Colt 38 Super. After the rule changed and we started using the 45 ACP for the centerfire match, I converted it back to 38 Super. Maybe it is just that I handled that gun for so long, but it just feels right. It is the most accurate 38/9mm class pistol that I own.
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03-30-2013, 11:13 AM
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The only 38 Super factory load I have chronoed is the Winchester 125gr Silvertip. It made 1230 fps from my 5 inch Kimber. A vastly superior performing cartridge is the 9x23. Winchester Silvertip 125s made 1430 fps from my 5 inch Colt. The only problem with the 9x23 is acquiring brass. That brass is expensive (Winchester). The Starline brass is not structually the same as Winchester, so loading that brass would be entirely different. Corbon lists some hot loads for the 38 Super. In my expereince, Corbon ammo will always make at least advertised velocity. Dean
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03-30-2013, 11:34 AM
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I don't have much to add other than to agree with most everything posted. I just have one 38 Super 1911, but it is one of my best shooters. I reload for it but, currently I'm low on components so shooting it sparingly. I stocked up on other caliber components but didn't plan well for this caliber.
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03-31-2013, 01:47 PM
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I picked up a Springfield 1911A1 in .38 super a few years back and just love shooting that pistol. It is the most accurate 1911 I have and even shoots better than my .45 Gold Cup.
I also have a 9x23 Conversion slide and magazines that I use on my Gold Cup frame for occasional trips to the range. The 9x23 is noticeably more powerful that the .38 super round and is also very accurate. At the time I purchased the Springer and the 9x23 conversion, ammo in both calibers was pretty easy to find and not too pricey. Very glad I bought a bunch of it then and still have plenty of it left.
JimZ
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03-31-2013, 04:26 PM
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A college buddy of mine is a 38 Super nut while I became the 10mm nut. The two of us at the range together are quite something. I love shooting his Colt 38 Supers. They have a completely different recoil impulse than the 10mm or 45ACP out of the same 1911 platform. He has several that are Colt Custom shop works of art.
Better like reloading too, as others have pointed out.
You know there were some Tommy guns made in 38 Super, rare as hen's teeth.
Lots of sweet Mexican-inspired special editions out there - "El Muerte", "El Diablo", etc.
I'd love one of the S&W PC 38 Super revolvers. Not quite as rare as hen's teeth but hard to find.
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03-31-2013, 05:28 PM
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The 38 Super is to the 38 Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge what the 357 Magnum is to the 38 Special.
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04-04-2013, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 41 fan
The only 38 Super factory load I have chronoed is the Winchester 125gr Silvertip. It made 1230 fps from my 5 inch Kimber. A vastly superior performing cartridge is the 9x23. Winchester Silvertip 125s made 1430 fps from my 5 inch Colt. The only problem with the 9x23 is acquiring brass. That brass is expensive (Winchester). The Starline brass is not structually the same as Winchester, so loading that brass would be entirely different. Corbon lists some hot loads for the 38 Super. In my expereince, Corbon ammo will always make at least advertised velocity. Dean
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I will add this, I bought two boxes of Corbon 115 or 125s, after coming home I popped up on the internet, I can't remember who, but it was someone well respected reported serveral older Colts with the unsupported case, had case blow-outs and gun damage. Do NOT fire the hot Corbons in classic colt 38 Supers, I do have one of those, so I took it back and exchanged it for some PMC ball ammo. I absolutely recommend the WW 125 Silvertip JHP+ P, it is very accurate in my old Colt, and quite comfortable. Any of the ball ammo is likely on the light side, and depending on what recoil spring you have may or may not function your gun reliably.
Now if I had a modern Colt, or any late 38 Supers, the Corbon would be a fine choice, this caveat is for older Classic Colts, that headspace on the semi-rim. Billy Magg
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04-04-2013, 08:13 PM
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I love this round. Easier to load on my Dillion 550 than 9mm, by far. Shoot 115 jacketed to 150 cast all day, no problem. Typically you'll only deal with one or two makes of brass which greatly aids consistency in ease of handloading and keeping track of your own brass. In my IPSC days, I ran a 150 gr. lead swc of my own casting at 1200fps in a ramped barrel. No leading. Great round.
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04-04-2013, 08:28 PM
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Also, you can mount a .45 Commander slide and barrel on the Super frame, giving you a second caliber.
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04-04-2013, 08:51 PM
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everything you wanted to know
38 Super
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04-06-2013, 11:14 AM
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My experience with the .38 Super has only been as of the last 2 years. My Dad passed and left me 4 different conversion kits for a 1911, one being a .38 Super. The .38 Super seems to exhibit descent accuracy (although not as good as the .45ACP out of the same frame) and is a good self defense cartridge in the +P loading. Recoil in the 1911 set up is very controllable and functioning is fine. The problem I see with the .38 Super in the USA is ammo availability. It is VERY HARD to find a good selection of that caliber. Of course if you plan to re-load that shouldn't be an issue. Better than the 9mm and .380 acp. Approximately equivalent to the .357 magnum out of shorter barrels.
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04-06-2013, 12:12 PM
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The 38 super is still a favorite caliber for USPSA/IPSC competition in open division. Typically it is loaded with an approximate 125gr bullet at somewhere around 1350fps, or more. In the days of a 175 power factor the 38 super was load with an approximate 125gr bullet in excess of 1400 fps. this is certainly equivalent to most 125gr 357mag loads out of a 4" barrel.
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04-06-2013, 02:34 PM
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04-07-2013, 01:19 AM
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This round was also a favorite of the "Bad Guys" back in the roaring 30's and early 40's due to its power, velocity and the
number of shells that could be held in the 1911 auto vs the cops six shooter 38 spl load that was nothing to brag about.
S&W finally came to the aid of the LE with the .357 that would penetrate the auto body of the get away cars but that's another story.
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04-12-2013, 10:25 AM
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I too love the .38 Super. It's the only round that I handload, and I load a cast 125 grain TCFP (Missouri Bullet IDP#6) over 7.4 grains of Accurate #5. I get about 1250 fps, and the round is accurate and very soft shooting.
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04-12-2013, 10:37 AM
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If you really want a hot 9mm, Double Tap and Underwood have 9X25 Dillon with a 125 grain 9mm at 1700 fps. It is a 10mm necked down to 9mm. You can drop a 9X25 Dillon barrel in a 10mm and use the 10mm magazines.
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06-28-2013, 08:23 AM
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I had one for awhile and decided I didn't want to reload another caliber. Factory ammo is non-existent where I live and you won't be buying any 0.06 range brass if you reload. Practically speaking you are better off with 9mm loaded hot or purchased. But not everyone has a super so you will get some attention at the range. For me it was just another obscure caliber that I didn't need to mess with. YMMV.
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06-28-2013, 09:13 AM
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Did I miss someone mentioning the sudden rise in popularity of the 38 super due to it being able to be loaded to make IPSC major power factor ?
38 super race guns were all the rage until IDPA and 40 S&W seemed to take over.
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06-28-2013, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicky4968
Also, you can mount a .45 Commander slide and barrel on the Super frame, giving you a second caliber.
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BUT?? Can you install a 38 Super barrel on a comander frame-- Stainless -- I sold my 38S, and left myself stuck with several boxes of loaded ammo, and an almost full case of new brass-- ????
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06-28-2013, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMagg
I will add this, I bought two boxes of Corbon 115 or 125s, after coming home I popped up on the internet, I can't remember who, but it was someone well respected reported serveral older Colts with the unsupported case, had case blow-outs and gun damage. Do NOT fire the hot Corbons in classic colt 38 Supers, I do have one of those, so I took it back and exchanged it for some PMC ball ammo. I absolutely recommend the WW 125 Silvertip JHP+ P, it is very accurate in my old Colt, and quite comfortable. Any of the ball ammo is likely on the light side, and depending on what recoil spring you have may or may not function your gun reliably.
Now if I had a modern Colt, or any late 38 Supers, the Corbon would be a fine choice, this caveat is for older Classic Colts, that headspace on the semi-rim. Billy Magg
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...most incorrect sir. I have been shooting and loading for the Super since 1980 and have carried a Commander daily since that time. I can assure you any commercially available load from CorBon, Georgia Arms or Buffalo Bore are all safe to fire in a non-ramped barrel. Of the 15 1911 Supers I have only a Kimber Stainless Target II has a ramped barrel....and my standard self-defense rounds are CorBon Powr'Ball (1500 fps), 115s (1450 fps) and 125s (1350 fps) and not a one bulges or have ever blown a case in a non-ramped barrel.
The problem sometimes arises when a +P+ round is fired in a Colt barrel that headspaces on the case rim vs. all Colt barrels made after 1990 that headspace on the case mouth like a 9mm or .45 ACP. And even then the worst I have ever seen or heard of happening is a pierced primer. If one has an older Colt that has a headspace on the case rim barrel one is also not getting near the accuracy that a properly fitted and chambered barrel will.
The Old Super .38 Barrels - 1911Forum
A few more articles from the late great Steven Camp:
Corbon
How Does
...and a Super Blog...
38 Super
In addition to a bunch of semi-autos I also have three revolvers in .38 Super. The hard to find 686-7 and a just converted by TK Custom 60-10.
A very un appreciated caliber. With just a barrel change one can run 9mm and with some extra spring weight 9x23 Winchester....125s at 1450.....that is a 10 round .357 Magnum that doesn't kick the **** out of you.
Bob
ps....one should also run a 18# recoil spring if using the hotter rounds...they will also usually function with the standard and +P rounds also.
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07-04-2013, 03:31 PM
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The 38 Super is a fine round (sort of on par with a 357 Magnum). I find that it is not as inherently accurate as the .45 acp, but more than accurate enough for any kind of defense work or informal target shooting. The gun will also hold a few more rounds.
Here's the really bad part.............
Unless you re-load the 38 Super it is both expensive and hard to find. Other than that, it is a very formidable round and I like it much better than the 9mm.
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07-04-2013, 08:03 PM
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Holy Toledo!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter M. Eick
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That makes me wonder why supers are not a lot more popular.
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07-04-2013, 08:17 PM
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Back in the late 70s, I had a load with the 147 gr Hornady bullet that would make in excess of1300fps from a Colt Govt Model. I don't recall what the powder charge was, but I never had a case blow out. The Colts in 9x23 do not have supported barrels, but the 9x23 brass is very stout. Dean
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07-04-2013, 08:34 PM
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Peter...think I missed it..who made the gun?
It is why I like the Super over the .45...the top gunsmiths say they are more accurate and for me they are much easier to shoot.
Bob
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07-06-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter M. Eick
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If my targets looked that good they would also have power burns on them!
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07-07-2013, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMagg
I will add this, I bought two boxes of Corbon 115 or 125s, after coming home I popped up on the internet, I can't remember who, but it was someone well respected reported serveral older Colts with the unsupported case, had case blow-outs and gun damage. Do NOT fire the hot Corbons in classic colt 38 Supers, I do have one of those, so I took it back and exchanged it for some PMC ball ammo. I absolutely recommend the WW 125 Silvertip JHP+ P, it is very accurate in my old Colt, and quite comfortable. Any of the ball ammo is likely on the light side, and depending on what recoil spring you have may or may not function your gun reliably.
Now if I had a modern Colt, or any late 38 Supers, the Corbon would be a fine choice, this caveat is for older Classic Colts, that headspace on the semi-rim. Billy Magg
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The most likely explanation for this is that someone fired 38 Super cartridge in an old 38 Auto gun. The 38 acp is an almost identical round (actually the parent of the super) but has thinner case and much lower pressure. These older guns would likely blow up with the hi pressure rounds you mention and is one reason 38 Super is not commercially promoted - there are a lot of old Colt 38 Autos out there the ammo would fit like a glove. Ramped barrels were a device of the IPSC guns for reliable feeding. I don't know of any 38 Super ramped barrels in production guns until about the late 80's when custom guns were starting to be offered mainstream.
Switching barrels on a 9mm will work fine but as for switching barrels into a 45 frame- it can be done but is not that simple. The 9mm/38super ejector is in a different location than the 45 and IIRC would have to be changed each time you switched calibers. Also the slide has to have a milled channel for the relocated ejector and I think even then you have to use a 9mm slide due to the fit differences of the case/breech head and the extractor.
Also if using a ramped barrel, it has to be fit into the frame and once that is done you won't be able to use a non-ramped barrel after that , any other switch barrels will have to be ramped & fitted also.
So, its possible to have a 45/9/38sup conversion setup but it isn't as easy as just changing the barrel - its easier to just have another gun.
Last edited by 125JHP; 07-07-2013 at 09:27 AM.
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07-07-2013, 09:31 AM
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Very nice set of targets Peter, out of a factory barrel no less.
My Super has a Bar-Sto and was built by Austin Behlert.
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07-07-2013, 10:47 AM
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Question to me, what manufacturer?
It is a Les Baer PII 38 super. Every group since then has been about the same. Actually smaller now as I have worked on my sight picture.
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07-07-2013, 06:33 PM
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Take seriously the warning that the Super is addictive. And with many shooters it leads to a similar 41 mag addiction. SuperMan is a serious enabler....
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07-08-2013, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoptoad
Take seriously the warning that the Super is addictive. And with many shooters it leads to a similar 41 mag addiction. SuperMan is a serious enabler....
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Very well said for both!!!!!
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07-08-2013, 02:17 AM
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If you're a fan of the 1911 platform and you want higher capacity than the 45 Auto and less recoil than the 45 Auto, a 1911 in 38 Super is for you. Back in the "old days" the bad guys were carrying 1911's in 38 Super so that should tell you something...
I'm not much of a semi-auto guy but I do like the 1911 and I do like the 38 Super. (more than the 357 Sig and 9mm for sure) Unfortunately I do not own one but I would think long and hard if one came along. BTW, if you reload for it HS-6 is an excellent choice of powder for the ammo.
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SWCA #3437
Last edited by ArchAngelCD; 07-08-2013 at 02:23 AM.
Reason: Spelling
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07-08-2013, 10:54 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,753
Likes: 232
Liked 687 Times in 252 Posts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoptoad
Take seriously the warning that the Super is addictive. And with many shooters it leads to a similar 41 mag addiction.
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You know it! I added another .38 Super to the stable on Saturday.
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07-08-2013, 01:23 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 115
Likes: 92
Liked 28 Times in 13 Posts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by safearm
You know it! I added another .38 Super to the stable on Saturday.
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You go brother! I'm watching two Supers and another Model 58 and may be compelled to buy one of them.
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