38 Long Colt

[HAWKEYE10]

I saw an add on a local web site for 38 Long Colt ammo. Is there such a thing? This is a new one on me. Don

[bmcgilvray]

Yep and it's an old wheezer of a round from bygone times. Shown here beside a .38 Special cartridge.


Here's a Colt Model 1901 the US Army issue version of the commercial Colt Model 1901, the main home for the .38 Long Colt. The bore on this revolver is .362 so hollow based bullets work best.

[jrd1976]

I believe the 38 Colt was the cartridge developed to convert the 1851/1861 Colt and other .36 Cal cap and ball revolvers to cartridge guns in the 1870's.

A few years later, Colt lengthened the case and named the new cartridge the 38 Long Colt.

Around 1902, S&W again lengthened the case and introduced the 38 S&W Special.

And in 1935, S&W lengthened the case and introduced the 357 Magnum.

Each successively longer cartridge should not fit in a gun chambered for the round that preceeded it. (But will on some cheaply made imports I have seen.)

There have been several new production runs of obsolete cartridges for Cowboy Action Shooting.

[DCWilson]

Some early S&W M&P models carry the chambering label 38 S&W SPECIAL & U.S. SERVICE CTGS. The "US Service Ctg" is the .38 Long Colt, of which the .38 Special is essentially an improved version. The superiority of the .38 Special round eventually pushed the .38 Long Colt completely out of competition as a stand-alone chambering, and Colt began producing their .38s to take the .38 Special (though they never used the "S&W" abbreviation, just as S&W had carefully labeled their products without using the word "Colt" on the barrel).

[uhlawpup]

Let me see if I have this straight. The .38 Long Colt is closer in size to the .38 special, but with a bullet diameter a bit larger, like the .38 S&W. So, would that mean that you couldn't shoot a .38 Long Colt in a .38 S&W revolver, but vice versa would work?

And how does the .38 Long Colt compare with the .38 Colt New Police, which, again if I'm not mistaken, is like the .38 S&W but with a flat nosed bullet?

[bmcgilvray]

I think Colt couldn't bear to place "S&W" anywhere on their revolvers so made a cosmetic change to the .38 S&W round and called it .38 Colt New Police. The .38 Long Colt is too long to chamber in any revolver made for .38 S&W or .38 New Police.

I've shot factory .38 Long Colt in .38 Special revolvers. Bit of a yawn in performance.

The .38 Special originated in 1899. The 1902 origination date does appear in many references and shows up occasionally in gun writers' articles but is incorrect. I've always wondered if early editions of "Gun Traders Guide" was the source for the misinformation about the .38 Special's year of introduction.

I dug out an old discussion of the .38 Long Colt I wrote up for a small firearms forum some years back.

___________________________________________________

This old wheezer represents an important stop along the path of the development of .38 caliber cartridges and was in wide use during a very colorful part of our nation’s history. Though obsolete now it once was considered suitable for use in side arms equipping the military services serving our great republic. We recently reviewed the .30-40 and the Krag rifle which was used to fight our nation’s battles around the turn of the 20th century so let’s take a look at the military issue revolver cartridge of that important era.

The .38 Long Colt was a very early center fire revolver cartridge, first appearing in 1875 in the Colt New House and New Line revolver models. It gained greater popularity when the Colt Model 1877 double action revolver was introduced. Nick-named the “Lightning” in .38 Long Colt, this model revolver in .41 Long Colt was popularly referred to as the “Thunderer”. The .38 Long Colt was commonly available throughout the last three decades of the 19th century, playing a part in the settlement of the West. It also saw wide use in law enforcement and for personal self-defense. Colt, Merwin Hulbert and other makers chambered revolvers to take the .38 Long Colt cartridge. The common factory load consisted of a 150 grain heeled lead bullet, propelled by a charge of 18 grains of black powder. Muzzle velocity was 770 feet-per-second. Muzzle energy would have been195ft. lbs. The heeled bullet had a diameter of .357". The standard bore diameter for the .38 Colt was .362". The bullet expands to fit the bore. The heeled bullet design is still employed to this day in .22 rim fire ammunition. Some one else will have to explain just why Colt chose to design several of its proprietary revolver cartridges to use the heeled bullet. The outside lubrication was messy and they had a reputation for inaccuracy. I’ve seen various explanations offered including: suitability for cartridge-conversion percussion revolvers, an effort to improve accuracy, and to compensate for black powder fouling. The Colt cartridges faded away while the conventionally designed Smith & Wesson cartridges of similar caliber remained popular. In my VERY limited use of both .32 Colt and .38 Colt ammunition the heeled bullet gave respectable accuracy.

The high water mark for the .38 Colt was reached in 1889 when the U.S. Army awarded Colt a contract for its latest double action revolver so chambered, featuring cylinder that swung out to load/unload in order to provide new handguns for the American soldier. This was the first “side-swing” revolver, a design that is still commonly used today. A modern double action revolver featuring simultaneous ejection of spent cartridges was deemed advantageous over the .45 Colt Model 1873 Single Action Army revolver which had equipped the army for the previous 16 years. Reloading the single action Colt revolver was slow and cumbersome, especially for the mounted cavalryman. The function of the new Army revolver appears to be well though out except for its .38 Long Colt chambering which must not have received much thought at all. The .45 had it all over the new .38 where it counted most; out where the “shootee is”.

The Colt double action Army revolvers and their .38 cartridge were called to action in 1898 for the Spanish American War. Teddy Roosevelt obtained one that had been retrieved from the Battleship Maine, sunk in Havana harbor. He galloped up San Juan (actually Kettle) Hill towards a blockhouse and its Spanish defenders with this Colt in hand, dispatching an enemy soldier with the revolver. The United States emerged from that war with new possessions in the Caribbean and the Philippines. The .38 revolvers apparently satisfied their users in this conflict as little was mentioned about them. I suspect they weren’t much employed and the few enemy combatants on the receiving end of the uninspiring .38 Long Colt had the good grace to behave properly after having been shot.

Not so with the Juramentados encountered in the Philippines when U. S. Troops took over occupation and administration of that archipelago after cessation of hostilities with Spain. These fanatical Muslim tribesmen would drug themselves up, bind their bodies tightly to retard blood loss, and run amok, attempting to take out as many infidels as possible before their own inevitable deaths. They despised any foreign rule. They had been the scourge of the Spanish for years and now their wicked kris and barongs dripped with the blood of many U. S. soldiers who encountered them while on occupation duty. These encounters demoralized troops making it dangerous to leave garrison except in groups yet groups were no guarantee of safety. Groups were fine with the Juramentados, the more the merrier! They believed that Allah would richly reward the man who accepted greater odds and strove to kill as many unbelievers as he could before his own death. The .38 Long Colt was found to be sadly lacking in power when employed against these suicidal and murderous attackers. In addition to the basic inadequacy of the cartridge, it has been suggested that some suppliers provided the Army with substandard lots of .38 ammunition, which produced much lower velocity than specified in contract. The .45 Colt Model 1873 single action revolvers that were still in Army stores were trotted out of retirement, refurbished and sent to the occupation zone as rapidly as possible. Reports from soldiers in the field indicated that these revolvers of heavier caliber were greatly appreciated. The Army obtained supplies of Colt’s New Service revolver in .45 Colt, calling it the Model 1909; to supplement existing supplies of .45’s in the Philippines. Small supplies of the primitive Model 1878 double action revolver chambered in .45 that the Colt factory had on hand were even purchased to provide needed big bore revolvers. These are known as the Model 1902. The government embarked on the search for an effective handgun to replace the wretched .38’s then in service, the result of which gave the world the brilliant Colt Model 1911 chambered for the excellent .45 ACP. But that’s a whole different story.

The 20th century dawned with a new .38 cartridge to compete with the .38 Long Colt. This was Smith & Wesson’s .38 Special. Introduced in the closing months of 1899, the .38 Special was an effort to increase the power of a .38 caliber cartridge and win contracts to provide America’s military with Smith & Wesson’s newly designed K-Frame double action swing out revolver. The government purchased a few thousand of the Smith & Wesson revolvers but the big order never came. They just weren’t required and the Army had gone off the .38 caliber as a military weapon, even if this new round could provide more “umph”.

Though the .38 Long Colt made the transition to smokeless powder, as the first decade of the 20th century closed the .38 Special had completely supplanted it as the popularly provided chambering for mid-sized .38 caliber revolvers. Colt even appropriated the Smith & Wesson designed .38 Special, changing the bullet shape and calling it the .38 Colt Special. The era of the semi-automatic pistol was in its infancy and Colt was also marketing a new self-loading pistol chambered for its proprietary .38 ACP cartridge, a round similar in ballistics to the 9mm. When these developments hit the market the .38 Long Colt hit the skids.

Handloading and Shooting .38 Long Colt

I recall purchasing .38 Long Colt ammunition factory ammunition as provided by Remington and Winchester 25 years ago when I first acquired a Colt Model 1901 revolver. I’m unaware of the year the old .38 Long Colt was finally discontinued but it left the catalogs several years back. Of late it’s been revived and offered by several makers thanks to the Cowboy Action shooting game. I’m tickled to see the old round brought back for a new generation of interested shooters to use for a fun activity. Besides, now I can supply myself with genuine .38 Long Colt cartridge cases for my old Colt revolver.

The early Colt “left-wheeler”(so-called because the cylinder rotates counter clockwise like a Smith & Wesson revolver rather than clockwise like a modern Colt revolver double action revolver) were manufactured with cylinders that featured bored through charge holes with no shoulder. This characteristic is important to know for person who shoots his early Colt revolver. Any and all commonly encountered .38 cartridge cases along with the .357 Magnum case will drop right into the chambers of these revolvers. Now all factory loaded .357 magnum rounds will be too long for the cylinder to close but a .357 Magnum handload with a deep-seated bullet could fit and fire. Most factory .38 Special ammunition will chamber and the cylinder will close. Just because it’s a dimensional fit doesn’t mean that old Colt revolver is designed to contain it. If a person wants to grenade one of these old revolvers, using improper ammunition is just the ticket. I’ve seen a few of these revolvers that have burst and some photographs too. It’s an ugly sight, especially when one considers where all the hunks of metal could end up.

That said, the handloader who knows what he’s about and is detailed oriented can make up a batch of suitable loads to use in a .38 Long Colt revolver by utilizing published .38 Long Colt handloading data in unaltered .38 Special cases. One would have to take care to use the correctly prepared ammunition in the .38 Special cases in his .38 Long Colt revolver and not stray into his supply of normal .38 Special fodder. Uniquely marking each case or better yet, trimming to correct .38 Long Colt length could aid in identification. Some specialty ammunition companies have begun limited production of .38 Long Colt Ammunition and can also provide unprimed cases. This is in response to the Cowboy Action Shooting game that has attained great popularity over the past 15 years. Since the cartridge case is again available it’d be best to invest in a few boxes of proper .38 Long Colt brass rather than using the expedient .38 Special case.

Handloading Results

Using .38 Long Colt cases
148 grain hollow based wadcutter, Bullseye: MV 752 fps ME 185 ft./lbs. ES 62
158* grain SWC, Unique: MV 753 fps ME 189 ft./lbs. ES 57

Using .38 Special cases
158* grain SWC, Unique: MV 777 fps ME 211 ft./lbs. ES 72

Western 150 grain Luballoy Factory Load: MV 743 fps ME 183 ft./lbs. ES 64
Winchester 150 grain round nose Factory: MV 638 fps ME 135 ft./lbs. ES 53
Frankfort Arsenal 4-11 Factory Load: MV 671 fps ME 150 ft/lbs. (fired single example)

Velocity data taken with a Colt Model 1901 with 6-inch barrel
Oehler Model 12 Chronograph used

*Don't expect anything resembling accuracy when using undersized .358 diameter bullets in the Colt revolvers made before the introduction of the Model 1903.

Some say the old .38 Long Colt revolvers should be retired and not fired at all but I don’t intend to put mine out to pasture completely. I’m a history buff and enjoy hands-on experience with historical firearms. I use carefully prepared ammunition put up in proper .38 Long Colt cases. Parts breakage is a real possibility and the only Colt revolver that ever failed me is the Model 1901, which once broke a trigger return spring. Colonel Snodgrass of Fort Worth, Texas made a perfect replacement spring for me. The lock work is delicate and one would be wise to cock the hammer smoothly when using the revolver in single action mode rather than snapping it back to full cock. Stay away from rapid-fire double action shooting as well, instead pulling the trigger through smoothly so as to avoid battering the locking bolt and cylinder notches. I’ve never used the Colt Model 1877 “Lightning” revolver but they have a reputation for being even more fragile so take care with them as well.

Range time with one of the old Colt Army .38’s is good fun. The revolver with its six-inch barrel feels most elegant when sighted using the one-handed hold characteristic of the time of its issue. My revolver hits to point of aim at 12-15 yards with the 148 grain HBWC handloads or factory loads if I make careful use of the minuscule sights. Recoil is mild. The single action trigger of my Mode 1901 is quite heavy with a bit of creep, which makes it a chore to shoot really tight groups. The double action function is not a good experience. Heavy and uneven best describes it and my revolver is tight and properly timed. Did I say it has a bad double action? One will probably fire a few rounds double action for effect and the novel experience but a few will satisfy curiosity.

Good bullets are a problem for the .38 Long Colt revolver with its odd .362 bore. Normal .358 lead bullets intended for the .38 Special or .357 Magnum will give 12 inch “groups” at 10 yards with keyholes abounding. The bullet caster can acquire molds of proper dimensions. My favorite solution is to use 148 grain hollow based wad cutters intended for the .38 Special. My old Colt Model 1901 shoots them a treat with mild charges of Unique. For me the HBWC represents a problem solved with it’s almost identical weight to the original bullet and its ability to fill the bore. The Model 1903 revision of the Colt military revolver and contemporary Colt commercial revolvers manufactured beginning about 1903 are made with tighter bores of approximately .358 diameter and so handle the common .358 bullets with satisfaction.

If “push came to shove” and a .38 Long Colt had to be pressed into service as a self-defense handgun it certainly wouldn’t be the worst thing to use. While no powerhouse it’d be at least as effective as a .380 ACP. This assumes ammunition that equals the ballistics quoted above in the first paragraph. There are some modern handguns on the market that are widely popular for concealed carry and self-defense that are less powerful than the .38 Long Colt.

The .38 Long Colt will suffice for field use on small game. I once was asked to collect a fine specimen of an armadillo by my good friend Cres Lawson so he could have it stuffed as a gift for his son. I decided to use my Colt 1901 for the job. I strolled through the oak woods near our slough at Lake Leon listening for the sound of an armadillo shuffling through the leaves in search of bugs. As they are plentiful I passed on several before finding a large one. I plugged this armadillo through the front of the bands of the shell rather than through the hard portion of the shell in order to make any repair work easier for the taxidermist. I saw a red spot appear right where I aimed. I was very surprised when this armadillo scrambled away to his hole. I had to seek out another. This time the same shot netted me my quarry. I was using some Winchester-Western factory loads in the yellow box.

The .38 Long Colt has no reason for being at this point in time. Or perhaps it does. Modern shooters are employing it for a purpose not originally considered primary by its 19th century makers and users who fought with it, used it for serious protection from evildoers, or used it for evil on occasion. It now has the honor of being used just for fun.

[HAWKEYE10]

Thanks for the information and history lesson guys. If you want to know the answer to a question the S&W Forum is the place to ask. Don

[Andy Griffith]

The is one thing to know...

Modern, factory loaded .38 Long Colt (and it's little brother, the .38 Short Colt) ammunition is loaded with .358 bullets, and is more or less unsuited for original revolver, but is great for modern firearms.

The best rounds for originals for accuracy is going to be handloads loaded with heeled or "outside lubricated" bullets. A bit more difficult than using HBWC's, but works a bit better, and looks more authentic. I crimp them with a modified .35 Remington Lee FCD, because there is on way to crimp them on regular dies.

[Bushrat265]

hello
last year i bought a few guns one of them is a S&W 38 long colt and one of the others is a copy made in spain also a 38 long colt but i can not find out any type of info on the ammo that can be used in either what i would like to know is that if along with the 38 long can i shoot 38 short colt and the 38 police .

any info would be great Thank you Guy's

[LoboGunLeather]

Originally Posted by Bushrat265

hello
last year i bought a few guns one of them is a S&W 38 long colt and one of the others is a copy made in spain also a 38 long colt but i can not find out any type of info on the ammo that can be used in either what i would like to know is that if along with the 38 long can i shoot 38 short colt and the 38 police .

any info would be great Thank you Guy's

As earlier posts have indicated, .38 Short Colt is the original cartridge developed for the converted percussion revolvers (first as a rimfire, later as centerfire). The .38 Long Colt came along a bit later in the SAA, Bisley, and Lightning revolvers, then in the Army DA models.

Already serving as a military cartridge, the .38 Long Colt was the basis for the .38 Special cartridge c.1905.

Any revolver chambered for the .38 Special (or .357 Magnum) can chamber and fire .38 Long Colt or .38 Short Colt ammunition. Performance will vary significantly.

Both the .38 Long Colt and .38 Short Colt are pretty rare specimens these days. There may be a few sources for currently manufactured ammunition, but originals probably belong in a collection or museum display.

For shooting ammo to feed an original .38 Long Colt revolver it should not be too difficult to trim .38 Special cases to the shorter length, then load with appropriate (low-pressure) charges. Bullets could be problematic, not only because of varying bore diameters, but also due to chamber and forcing cone dimensions. Cast soft lead slugs would probably be best, and hollow-based bullets would probably be better. Even then, bullet distortion during seating and crimping could produce erratic results.

Could be an interesting project, but likely to result in some head-scratching before satisfactory results are achieved.

Best regards.

[David Sinko]

Starline .38 Long Colt brass is listed for sale in the Midway catalog and it's about the same price as .38 Special.

Dave Sinko

[dace]

So, bottom line.. Can I use a low power .38 spl cartridge in this Long Colt revolver. The 38 spl round seems to fit well into the cylinder.

[bmcgilvray]

To answer the above question from back in March: No, it'd be best to keep the .38 Special ammunition out of the .38 Long Colt revolver. The guns are said to have handled standard velocity .38 Special ammunition without a hitch. They are also said to grenade when used with .38 Special. I don't know personally as I'm not shooting any factory .38 Special in one to find out what it will do.

That said, I've used factory .38 Special cartridge cases to make up .38 Long Colt loads, while following .38 Long Colt data. When using correct data these wouldn't be any more harmful than using .38 Long Colt ammunition.

[Skeetr57]

The poster in post #6 incorrectly states that the diameter of the heeled bullet was .357". The heeled bullet was of outside case diameter, which is why it was a "heeled" bullet. All early Colt cartridges, except the .45 Colt were originally designed for heeled, outside lubricated bullets. At some point early on, it was determined that an inside lubricated bullet was a better design, and the Colt ammo was re designed for such bullets, which had to be of a smaller diameter to fit inside the cartridge case. Since the revolvers had bores sized to fit the larger bullets, the new bullets had to be made with a hollow base in order to expand to fit the bore. A .357 dia HBWC will expand just like the later Colt bullets, but solid base .357 bullets will give poor accuracy in the revolvers chambered for .38 LC. The early Colts chambered for .38 long and short Colt have straight bored charge holes because that was what was required for bullets the same diameter as the outside of the case. Remington still loads ammo in .38 short Colt, which can be fired in the guns chambered for .38 long Colt, as well as in guns chambered in .38 special and .357 magnum.