Anyone heard of this stuff? Saw a box of the 9MM today at the LGS. The 9MM was rated at 2000 FPS, 450 ft pds, and 12 inches of penetration!!

But I'll believe it when I see it.

Couldn't tell what the bullet composition was but it looked exactly like Corbon DPX but the bullet was silver colored. Not brass. Supposed to fragment along they way?!

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

My guess is their claims will "fragment along the way". If nothing else it seems it would stress the hell out of the average 9mm handgun and kick like a stud zebra, but heaven knows I'm no expert.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Liberty Ammunition | Global Leader in Lead-Free Ammunition Don't know anything about them but they have a colorful website.

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Minimize the variables

They also claim low recoil. I don't see how but who knows?

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

That's either an extreme overload or it has a very light weight slug. Likely the latter which means it should shoot low. Either way I don't think that I would try it.

Three words: No *******' way.

Unless it's about a 60-grain projectile, in which case 450 foot-pounds is laughable.

I'm going to have to see some objective data. Preferably from a private citizen who has shot a good deal of the stuff.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Sounds a little far fetched, maybe 2000 fps out of a 20" barrel? Also fragments on the way sounds goofy, are they saying the bullet breaks up in flight? if so it would seem to go against the idea of 12 inches of penetration. Looked at there website and it had a lot of ad hype but not much info.

Search you tube. I got their "halo point". 60 gr 40s&w. i cant verify their claims. If you carry a lg mag, their ammo saves you weight.

i shot this stuff at some water jugs, and some phone books. it does work. does it work as advertized? so, so. it is not a handfull as some might think. the weight savings and for the self defense type work it is intended for, its all good. i carry it in my g19. it is light. i do think it is good enough for my EDC needs. that said, further testing is needed...

No offense. But I'm not concerned about saving weight as much I am saving my life. I think it's all hype.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Just giving info. They save weight. Its up to u to decide. Watch youtube, it they perform like that. They are worth it.

Friends don't let friend believe everything they see on boobtube.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

You can watch a video on their website to see what this bullet does.


First of all, Liberty Civil Defense Ammo consists of a 50 grain fragmenting bullet (not a frangible) that is actually fitted to some of their other caliber casings in the same product line. For example, in addition to the 9mm, tghis 50 grain projectile sits on a .380, a .38 Special, and a .357 Magnum!

For the .40SW, they use a 60 grain bullet and a 78grain bullet for their .45ACP.

The 9mm and .40SW travel at 2000fps.<br>
The .380 and .38 Special travel a snail's pace of 1500fps<br>
The .45ACP is slightly off the 9mm & .40 at 1900fps<br>
And the .357 (befitting its name) goes out at 2100fps.<br>

On the Liberty Ammunition website, Liberty Lead Free Ammo - Liberty AmmunitionLiberty Ammunition | Global Leader in Lead-Free Ammunition, you can watch a 34 second video (shown at normal and super slo-mo speeds) demonstrating what happens when each one of their Civil Defense rounds is fired independently into the left side of a fresh block of ballistics gel by Joe Teti, billed as a 20 yr. Military and Special Ops Vet.

First of all, Liberty Civil Defense Ammo consists of a 50, 60, or 78 grain fragmenting bullet (not a frangible). The 50 grain bullet is actually fitted to four different caliber casings in the same product line. So, in addition to the 9mm, this 50 grain projectile sits on top of a .380, a .38 Special, and a .357 Magnum case.

The .40SW is toppedoff with a 60 grain bullet and the .45ACP gets the 78 grain "big bore." ;-)

The .45ACP is fired from a Colt 1911. Joe said he used a G23 in the .40 cal shot, which has a 4" barrel. I can't tell what fired the 9mm, but it looks like a baby Glock with a 3.46" barrel or maybe a G19 with a 4" barrel. That would explain the discrepancy between the muzzle energy shown in the video after the block was shot (>450FPE - which is also listed on their website). However, at the start of the video, it says 500FPE. That used to be the advertised amount. My guess is that a G17 with a 4.5" barrel was used to get the 500FPE number and a shorter barreled Glock was used to get the smaller number.

At least the .40SW is consistently listed at >500FPE.

I have also seen the kinetic muzzle energy of the 9mm listed at 533 FPE in a separate trial that was fired from a 5" barrel M&P PRO.

As we all know, the longer the barrel, the greater the muzzle velocity as the extra length allows the powder to burn and gasses to form more fully.

There are no videos for the .380 and .38 Special - which is probably a good thing since I can't figure out how a .380 and a .38 Special can both produce the same velocity and muzzle energy unless they deliberately skimped on the .38 Special's propellant.

A .380, aka .38 Browning Short, has a shorter casing for the same bullet as the .38 Special. So, why are they both rated at 1500fps and 250FPE? I know why they are both 250FPE - since its derived 's from the same equation of multiplying 50 grains (mass) times 1500fps*1500fps (velocity squared).

Yet, you would think with all that extra room in the .38 Special, the velocity would be higher - and in the real world of other +P ammunition, the most powerful brand of ammo across the entire self-defense spectrum, is the company called COR-BON: highly recommended by Massad Ayoob, the Godfather of Guns.

At this website, Ballistic Calculator GunData.org, you will find a ballistics calculator that will allow you to compare the velocities and muzzle energies from the barrel to the point on the ground across its entire trajectory. You can set the zero sighting point (which is set at a default of 100 yards w/ 50 yard increments, but you can change that to 25 yards with 10 yard increments). There are also a lot of useful links to be foundf at that site - such as what ammo to buy and what ammo to avoid like the plague.

I used the calculator to compare COR-BON's most powerful hollow-points in .380 (90 grain JHP) and their .38 Special (100 grain Pow'R Ball +P). I do not know what they use as their test gun, but I would guess it would be similar to what Liberty used.

To recap Liberty's figures, both the .380 and .38 Special leave the barrel at 1500fps with 250 foot pounds of kinetic energy. How does that stack up to COR-BON?

COR-BON's 90 grain .380 JHP had a muzzle velocity of 1050fps producing 220FPE.

COR-BON's 100 grain Pow'R Ball +P had a velocity of 1150fps producing 293FPE. So, COR-BON beats Liberty in terms of raw numbers.

And, these are both jacketed hollow-points.

And, that's where the big pitch fork shows up in the road because, unlike a mushrooming hollow-point, that fragmenting bullet is going to leave one very nasty wound cavity (or should I say "cavities") for the doctors to try and fix should the recipient survive the impact AND the additional depth of penetration from the solid core of the bullet.

For comparison sake, COR-BON's Pow'R Ball +P is normally the badass of the bunch in terms of energy as its 115 grain 9mm sibling has a flight path starting out at 1475fps with 488 FPE.

The question is, "Can these monsters be safely used on an "as-needed basis" in your SD when you know they don't recommend using +P ammo (and +P+ is a big no-no)?

It reminds me of the endless debate over whether a 5.56 NATO can be fired in a rifle chambered for .223.

The similarity hewre is that the SD9 and SD40 are chambered to SAAMI specs - just like the .223 Remington is - while the +P's, like Mil-Specs, have a tighter fit around the throat of the cartridge to handle the extra pressures generated by the Mil-Spec 5.56 rounds.

My guess is that the stove pipes caused by using the Liberty Ammunition is either due to the ammo's massive power, vis-a-vis a standard load, needed to push such a small amount of mass.

If a magazine filled with COR-BON Pow'R Ball +P's are tested out, and your gun survives with no ill effects, then, you can blame the ammunition.

Usually, stove pipes are caused by using weak ammunition that don't have the power to push the slide back far enough to properly cycle the ejector mechanism.

Maybe, in the case of too much power, the extractor gets blown past the point where it normally grabs the spent cartridge, or because of the tighter-fitting casing, the ejector has trouble freeing it from the chamber.

Either way, instead of pushing a new round into the chamber, the new round pushes on the back of the spent casing and up into that annoying vertical position.

Sounds like a sales pitch there buddy.

Thanks. But I'll wait until it's tested on the street.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Yeah, it lightens your wallet.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

It appears low recoil may be the only advantage these rounds have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_hZMZM1l04

It reminds me of the G2 RIP rounds...all hype. Corbon DPXs actually are rated far better than these.

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M&P Shield 9MM

Very light bullets pushed to super high velocities are nothing new. Glaser Safety Slugs were doing it 25+ years ago. The way the math works, because you square the velocity, you can get some high energy numbers by using smaller bullets at higher velocities. They have historically fallen short in the penetration department though.

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Proud anachronism

I do not know anything about FP or trajectory or any of the other fancy schmancy stuff but that is the brand my local range stocks.

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I Cor. 10:13 "1611KJV"

One of my friends is an investor in the privately held company. I've shot some of their 9mm, I didn't chrono it or shoot water jugs. I didn't knowtice a recoil difference between other SD 9mm.

My friend was talking about a huge lawsuit against the DOD for infringing on their patents, (???) he's more than a bit of a braggart, so I kinda shut up.

I have notice tho that the 9mm I bought for nearly $30 a box can be had in many places for less than $15. So it appears the market has passed judgement.

There were some concerns about this ammo being capable of penetrating ballistic vests being floated around a year or so ago. Never did see anything to substantiate the fear, though. They reminded me of an article I read back in the 80s about some zinc 9mm German WWII surplus ammo that showed up in Europe and played hell with backdrops at shooting range. Seems the German army had developed the round for the MP smgs to penetrate the skin of US vehicles up to M3 half-tracks.

I tested out ten rounds each of 9mm and 380 yesterday out of a Glock 19 and Ruger LCP and found the opposite to be true as far as recoil. The recoil was noticeably lighter in both calibers as was the weight of the magazine. It should be noted that the 9mm shot to point of aim at 15 yards and the 380 shot about 2 inches low at 15 yards.

I'm curious, why do you think that it would "stress the hell" out of an average 9mm handgun ?

It is a 50 grain projectile and it is "screaming fast" coming out of my Glock 19 barrel. As I said in my earlier post ten rounds shot to point of aim out of my Glock 19, but the 380 rounds shot about 2 inches low at 15 yards out of my Ruger LCP.

15 yards is more probably than not about as far as one would ever use the Ruger LCP and for that matter the Glock too in a self defense situtation

Have you ever shot or used any of it ?
Why do you automatically dismiss it as BS when you have no idea or actual experience with this ammo ?

I went shooting at a local range with a friend last week. He is a county sheriff and he swears by the stuff. He says the recoil is almost nothing.

After our session we stopped at the counter and he asked the guy to show me a box in 40cal (which is what he carries). I read the box...60gr., all copper round. Muzzle velocity:2000 fps

The guy said that ALL the store employees carry that round!

I looked at a couple of videos, and both supported the muzzle velocity and energy, but...the penetration was only 8 1/2", with fragments going in all directions within 3" after impact. My friend and the LGS employees place more importance on the impact energy and internal damage by fragmentation, than on reaching 12" or more of penetration.

For now at least, I will stick with my Hornady Critical duty.

Read post #18.

Everyone wants to believe that magic bullets exist. They don't.

This ammo is just another example that will fail too.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Your decision is supported by a lot of testing and field studies that show the depth of penetration along with the wound cavity are what effects assailants the quickest in self defense situations.

Surface wounds like those created with the Liberty or G2 rounds have a psychological effect (a lot of blood) but do little to do physical damage to the organs and deep tissue (which is needed to completely stop someone).

It's a subject that has been debated and discussed for ever and at the end of the day, it all goes boom (hopefully) when you pull the trigger. So I guess it just comes down to personal preference. But, like you, I would rather depend on "proven" more than "perceived" when it comes down to self defense ammo.

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M&P Shield 9MM

You're in the same boat as anyone else who may be using the Liberty 50gr HP; Critical Defense/Critical Duty is completely unproven on the streets. Something that I certainly wouldn't trust my life to without seeing actual shooting results. I don't place my trust in ammo shot solely into blocks of ballistic gel

Ballistic gel is only a measuring tool for how a round reacts in certain conditions. Clearly, it does not 100% reliably represent how it works with people. However, regardless of how much real data is available about a round, the fact is that each shot can act in an erratic and unpredictable manner. The round can follow bone, it can over penetrate, it can be deflected, etc. Every shot can be different. So the best we can hope for is a general representation of how a certain round will react in a controlled circumstance. That is what the ballistic gel test does. It gives a common point from which testing can be performed, with the outcomes considered either acceptable or not acceptable by FBI standards. The standards are set by drawing parallels between how the bullet reacts in the gel compared to how that performance can best be translated to human performance and effectiveness.

In other words, it equalizes the testing standard for ammo performance.

In this respect, most "similar ammo" tests provide similar results. Equal grains, loads, calibers, and designs (hp -vs- fmj for example) regardless of brand or hype, generally all give similar results (within a small margin).

It has been shown time after time...test after test, that bullets with deeper penetration and cavity wounds provide more effective "stopping" power than the less penetrating and damaging rounds. Most of which, have some level of fragmentation and higher velocity, which results in less lead (or brass) going deep enough to do deep flesh or organ damage.

The choice really does come down to each person as to what they want to use, but saying a deeper penetrating and damaging bullet isn't proven to be a better SD round than a lesser penetrating lesser damaging bullet just isn't accurate.

Like I said, the best, most proven round can do some strange things when it hits a person, so I would rather rely on a round that has a better chance of performing the way it needs to, when it needs to...as it is shown to, with repeated testing.

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M&P Shield 9MM

You make some really good points that are certainly true, but
did you mis-type the text in bold ? It would seem that it is either one or the other. The super fast fragmenting rounds like Liberty Civil Defense provide large cavity wounds once they enter soft tissue and spread fragments of copper in multiple directions which is what creates the large cavity, but their energy quickly dissipates thereby reducing the depth of penetration, correct ?

The deeper penetrating rounds stay together longer which produces less wound cavity once it enters soft tissue, but the mass/weight of the projectile aids in deeper penetration. It can't be both ways and if deep penetration is the primary goal then why doesn't everyone just shoot and use FMJ ammo ?

Yes, I did read post # 18, but again I will ask the question again. Have YOU EVER shot or used this round buddy ?

Most folks that actually get out and shoot their weapons with different types of ammunition know magic bullets do not exist, but it would seem logical that one would have to actually load, shoot and evaluate the ammo in "their" weapon before they start dismissing it out of hand.

I don't know what your issue is but I'm sure you'll get over it someday.

Yes, I have shot it. Last weekend as a matter of fact. It functioned fine.

But if you think that proves anything, you're wrong.

There are and have been countless brands of ammo which claimed to be the absolute best ever. They didn't last long.

Don't get caught up in the game.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

No mistype. The damage I am talking about is deeper. And the fragmented rounds generally do not go deeper. A shallow wound cavity can be bigger (due to fragmentation) than a deeper wound cavity and have much less of a stopping effect because the wound cavity didn't run deep enough to do deep flesh or organ damage. That is why the shallower, yet slightly larger wound cavity usually looks worse (shallow flesh damage) than the deeper wound, yet has a much diminished "physical stopping" effect. Organ and deep flesh damage is what "stops" assailants most of the time, not flesh wounds. Like I said, there are always wild cards. A shallow bullet can hit a main artery or soft tissue (allowing easier organ access) and still do some real damage, just as a deeper penetrating bullet can follow bone or exit without massive damage.

The point is (as I mentioned), I would rather rely on a bullet that will probably do what it needs to most of the time instead of on one that might be effective some of the time.

Also, FMJ ammo has a higher chance of over penetration. There is a sweet zone that is strived for (usually between 12 and 18 inches by FBI standards...I think). It comes down to the right mixture of enough penetration (without over penetration) and good expansion (obtained best with HPs and the like). Other factors like feed rliability, recoil, etc...can also be important to an individual shooter. Effective SD ammo does no good if it isn't reliable and easily handled by the shooter.

Early, shallow, expansion, no expansion, or over / under penetration can all make a round less effective for what it needs to do.

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M&P Shield 9MM

Looks like a great varmint round. Anything bigger..I dunno.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Looks like a great varmint round. Anything bigger..I dunno. The impressive numbers go to show what can be done on paper.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Maybe understanding penetration and fragmentation will help.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

In 45 and 9mm recoil is very mild. I have shot watermelon. I'm sold on the stuff. Its in my bedside Glock 30. I am sold. try it!

Any updates .... Cause all I've read so far is nonsense from guys who just don't care to even shoot it and dismiss absolutely anything new.

I myself bought a couple boxes and the weight is great and I will be shooting it all through my carry pistol (Shield 9) to see how well it shoots, how accurate it is and above all reliability.

Just curious if there any new real world actual users that can reply (and not guys who have never shot it and just want to reply with "no way I'll ever shoot it" kinda replies!

Thanks and looking forward to reading some actual constructive thoughts from people who have "actually" uses this ammo

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M&P9 Shield, M&P9 CORE, S&W.38

I put up a post on this Saturday, ran some thru my 40c, yes NO RECOIL (hardly) this stuff is amazing, and weigh's nothing compared to regular stuff, makes my gun feel empty, I love it

This is what I carry in each of my pistols (9mm, .40 & .45). I love it. Check out YouTube for many ballistic gel tests and reviews (or this website as well). I ran into a sale at Dicks last week $12/ box and stocked up. I think SGAmmo had a good price on it recently as well.

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MP9 40c MP22 15Spt 9Shld 15-22

Ya I picked up a couple boxes at Dicks as well for $12 to try through my new M&P9 Shield that I will carry and if they all go off without a hitch then I will carry them. And SGAmmo does have them for $11.95 as well when in stock.

Good to hear some real world replies from guys who Actually Use It and not just guys who have zero clue but won't try anything different.

I loaded 10 rounds of Gold-Dots in 1 mag and the other mag with these Civil Defense in my PPQ .... BIG difference in weight, which is GREAT for carry purposes.

Looking forward to shooting it and hoping they run flawless along with reduced recoil and perfect accuracy up to 15 yards.

Like I said ... if all those pieces come together, then these will be the rounds loaded in my concealed carry Shield 9 at all times!

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M&P9 Shield, M&P9 CORE, S&W.38

Im thinking the 9mm stuff might be pretty good in a home defense revolver or semi auto in an apartment type living condition where over penetration is a major concern.
Come to think of it, the other offered calibers might serve well in areas where over penetration is a concern also.
Jim