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Old 05-07-2013, 07:35 AM
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Default 12 ga. self defense ammo

any idea's or opinion's on 12 ga. short barrel ammo? up close & personal. thaqnks.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:42 AM
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I use #4 buckshot in my Winchester Defender. It patterns nice and works in the gun with no problems.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:51 AM
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#8 steel shot, just in case someone you love is on the other side of the drywall....
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:15 AM
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I use low recoil 00 buck.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:30 AM
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I use 00 Buck in a Winchester Defender.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:32 AM
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I have read articles that say anything less than #1 buckshot will not penetrate enough and #00 buckshot over penetrates. I keep my home-defense shotgun loaded with #1 buckshot. It is much harder to find than #00 buckshot. I usually order mine from internet sources.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11e40 View Post
any idea's or opinion's on 12 ga. short barrel ammo? up close & personal. thaqnks.
Number 4 buck is the "thinking man's" choice. Double-ought buck, however, continues to be the choice of LE everywhere.

I am not sure what conclusion, if any, can be drawn by this, but I if any comes to mind, I will get back to you.



I recommend the standard or "Express" type loads as I see no appreciable difference between these and the so-called so-called premium loads, apart from price. I prefer 2 3/4 inch.

Thus, in Remington, I would recommend 12B4 in 12 gauge and 20B3 in 20 gauge. If you just have to have double-ought buck, I would select 12B00.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:14 AM
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Another vote for #4 buck. In my case, in an elderly 12ga. side-by-side sawed to twenty inches. But it stays in the closet, and will unless my neighborhood really goes up in flames. Primary HD is a 10-5 four-inch with the FBI load.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:26 AM
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At close range < 7 yd (21ft) any 12ga load will be deadly, at greater distances it becomes less so. The larger the shot the more effective it will be at greater distance. If one is making a choice to prepare for a defense situation my personal choice is a lead BB load or heavier up to 00 Buck.

If the BG is kicking in the door and all you have is a box of #8 trap loads then that's what he'll be shot with and its a lot more effective than a baseball bat.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:33 AM
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I live out a ways in the boonies and no close neighbors and it’s only me and the wife so that determines my loading. Also good chance EVEN if we could call,(no cell service) LEO help is at best 20+ minuets.

With that said I used conventional 12 G 00 buck to start, do not see the need for anything exotic or smaller. As we have a chance of trouble with large 4 legged critters my full load out is 5 00 buck followed by 4 conventional slugs (Gun is a Mossie 590 that holds 9 rounds!) More of both kinds of loads available close in bandoleer.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:37 AM
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Any Federal buck loading with the Flite Control wad. It really holds the shot group together impressively, so there's a lot less chance of an errant pellet. Works well in any of my cyl. bore and I/C shotguns.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:17 PM
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I noticed you specifically said "short barrel ammo," and I'm not sure if this applies since my own shotgun has an 18.5" barrel, but I've found Federal LE "reduced recoil" rounds (which are also available under their commercial "Premium" line) to be very controllable. The 9 pellet 00 buck offering (LE/PD132) with the FliteControl wad patterns exceptionally tight at 25' from my Remington 870 Police and is very controllable.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:38 PM
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#7-1/2 or #8 is idea for "Crowd Control", if you aim at hard pavement in front of several people. The shot bounces off the pavement and hits them in the legs. It will make just about anyone turn around and run away.

#4Buck is good for in the house, from what I'm told. I hope I never have to find out.

You can also use less-lethal stuff, if you don't want to have to clean up bits of bone, tissue, and lots of blood.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:21 PM
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I have a box of Remington duplex turkey loads I used to keep in my 18" barreled 870. They were 2 3/4" #2&5 shot. I always thought that would be a good load.
Might be time to dig them out and put them back in it..
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:23 PM
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oo Buck or OOO Buck
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:23 PM
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# 4 buck in my Stoger Coach gun
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:31 PM
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From the foot of my bed to the entry of my bedroom is 24' (closer to 30' where I store my shotgun). I use 5 rounds of 00 buck for the tighter pattern at that distance. The last 4 rounds are #4 shot with the thought of pursuit and CQC throughout the house. I have a 9 rd. Mossie 500 Persuader.

I feel this is the most effective combo of loads for most scenarios and how we practice. Hope I never need to put my theory to the test.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:33 PM
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i had a beledgerant drughead felon approach my frt steps last friday night. i bought a stoeger coach gun w/ federal low recoil oo buckshot 9 pellets @ 1140 fps. what say y'all ? thanks.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:22 PM
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I use 00 buck in my 12ga double barrel coach gun out here in the country. Have several good hardware stores in town that can sell me new sheet rock if I need it.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:22 PM
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Remington 870 tactical 7+1; 7-8 for the first round, 4-6 for the next 2, and military grade 00 for the last 5.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2hawk View Post
Any Federal buck loading with the Flite Control wad. It really holds the shot group together impressively, so there's a lot less chance of an errant pellet. Works well in any of my cyl. bore and I/C shotguns.
Yep.

I would never have believed buckshot could pattern this tightly had I not tested it for myself.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:23 PM
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I prefer the premium loads for my 18" Remington 870. 2 3/4" Magnum
12 pellet 00 buck. Ouch on both ends but bigger ouch on the BG's end.
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:32 PM
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Having been a SWAT operator for two decades and having "led the parade" many times on "dynamic entries" I am a faithful follower of the 1 oz slug.....I also have carried #4 buck which was dept. issue for normal duty loads.....either one will resolve "social issues" with authority....My home defense shotgun is a Vang Comp 870 ( with surefire forend) which patterns buck shot into very tight patterns.....I keep my house gun loaded with a 2 3/4" load of #2, then a slug, then #4 buck, then alternate with slug and #4 buck....with my 870, 15 yd patterns are about fist size "ratholes"...so it is pretty much academic whether I shoot #2 or buck.....I figure if I haven't solved the problem with the first round of #2, then we will move up the ballistic ladder....with the shotgun, it is pretty much academic overall really, as I have seen several folks shot with trap loads at 7 yds or closer and it created what the pathologists term a "rat hole" wound.....quite effective. And that federal flight control load is indeed a marvel.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:45 PM
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Per post #3;

#4 steel is used for ducks and #6 steel is used for snipe and
dove . #8 steel might be used for skeet shooting due to its low energy but the larger #7 steel is what Winchester loads.

8 steel has less energy than #9 lead shot and most use minimum of 7 1/2's for SD in a pinch.
You might shoot 3 water jugs at ten feet and see if you can get pellets into the third jug which is close to penetrating skin, muscle and body fluids that might work in a SD load if
no bones are struck.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:21 PM
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I recently picked up some low power 12 gauge 2" shells. You can get ten in a 7 round magazine, they don't kick so much and don't give so much overpenetration issues in houses. They also have plenty of power to do the job up close and personal.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
I prefer the premium loads for my 18" Remington 870. 2 3/4" Magnum
12 pellet 00 buck. Ouch on both ends but bigger ouch on the BG's end.
In my experience, the 2 and 3/4" 00 buck has 9 pellets..The 3 inchers have 12 pellets...Just sayin..
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:03 AM
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Shotgun recoil is all about payload weight , velocity and guns weight. With a 8 pound gun:

1oz 1180fps 13.2 ft/lb 1300fps 16.7 ft/lb
1 1/8 1200fps 17.4 ft/lb 1250 19.2 ft/lb
1 1/2 oz at 1330 fps has 39.9 ft/lbs ( 300 mag )

9 double 00 should work on the average person, one would think.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:30 PM
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Default Most home defense situations.

Most home defense is at close to very close range. #4 buckshot is just right.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:42 PM
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Full power 00 buck, 9 pellet is the standard. They penetrate >18" up close and pattern tightly, making a good intermediate range load. My 12 guage with a mod choke will keep 7/9 on a 8.5x11 paper at 25 yards, and the farther the range, the lower the velocity, and the lower the velocity the lower the penetration. All these factors add up to 00 buck being less than ideal for "up close and personal," and a great load for 15-35 yards, approximately.

Personally, I like more, smaller pellets for a shotgun, and lighter loads, so I found 20 gauge was a perfect fit for me. 20 pellets of .25 caliber that penetrate 12" of gelatin in up close tests seems perfect in my opinion.

Last edited by Waywatcher; 05-09-2013 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litenlarry View Post
In my experience, the 2 and 3/4" 00 buck has 9 pellets..The 3 inchers have 12 pellets...Just sayin..
Yeah but you might have left a word out in what you posted.
"Normally" A quick scan of the shotshell loadings actually
offered by the major manufacturers would have shown you
that there is much more to be had in 2 3/4" 12 ga than what
you normally see on the shelves of your local big box. Magnum
in shotshell terms refers to greater payload rather than more
velocity. Find a publication like Gun Digest that lists all loads
available in rimfire, handgun, rifle and shotshell and you will
see 2 3/4" 12 ga with up to 1 5/8 oz shot and premium buck
shot with 12 00 buck and 34 #4 buck shot. I have a box of
Winchester magnum BBs with 1 1/2" oz of buffered, copper plated BBs. Probably be pretty effective at close range but
I prefer bigger shot for large targets. 2 3/4" 12 ga has a lot
to offer if you take the time to look.
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
Per post #3;

#4 steel is used for ducks and #6 steel is used for snipe and
dove . #8 steel might be used for skeet shooting due to its low energy but the larger #7 steel is what Winchester loads.

8 steel has less energy than #9 lead shot and most use minimum of 7 1/2's for SD in a pinch.
You might shoot 3 water jugs at ten feet and see if you can get pellets into the third jug which is close to penetrating skin, muscle and body fluids that might work in a SD load if
no bones are struck.
The point here is that you're shooting (or should be) at the upper chest cavity, which is protected by a ribcage besides whatever clothing is involved. The shotgun didn't get it's worldwide reputation for predator incapacitation shooting birdshot. Nor do wounded birds kill you and your family.

Anyone who thinks drywall is going to stop birdshot is living in an alternative reality. Interior walls may have stopped birdshot prior to about 1950 when lath and plaster was replaced by drywall. It's not true anymore.
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:26 AM
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00 and a few slugs for distance or hammering hard targets. At close range the shot pattern is still tight and not an issue inside the average home or hallway distance. Adequate penetration is needed and 00 still does it pretty well.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:00 AM
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We use the Winchester PDX1 Elite 12 Gauge Defender. This load consists of 3 plated 00 Buck which is pushed out by a 1 ounce rifled slug. The load is reportedly designed to penetrate clothing but not your neighbor's house across the street.

Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 (12 Gauge) - YouTube

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Old 05-10-2013, 11:22 AM
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The "Box O' Truth" has good information on shotgun rounds for self defense.

The Box O' Truth #56 - Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot - Page 1
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokindog View Post
Remington 870 tactical 7+1; 7-8 for the first round, 4-6 for the next 2, and military grade 00 for the last 5.
I think I would do this in reverse order for personal defense... I don't want to need a second shot...

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Old 05-11-2013, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LimaCharlie View Post
The "Box O' Truth" has good information on shotgun rounds for self defense.

The Box O' Truth #56 - Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot - Page 1
Very good article. I have had the same results in my 870 using Federal FC low recoil. When I first shot it, at 7 yards, it punched a hole in the target that looked like a slug. I had to check to see it wasn't. For HD this is my first choice.
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:54 AM
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Does anyone realistically have a 25yd possible shot inside their home?

15 to 25ft(max) is more likely.
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:41 AM
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I like the Remington Managed Recoil buckshot (RL12BK00). It patterns well out of my Remington 870 with a 18" bbl and cylinder bore. I also like the fact it does not rattle the fillings out of my head when I shoot it. The idea is to hurt the other guy, right?!?!
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:02 PM
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Default Keep it Simple

Brutal simplicity:
Ithaca Homeland Security 12-ga
Winchester Super-X 00-buckshot.



-Jim
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Old 05-25-2013, 03:03 AM
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Another vote for 4 Buck. I live in a condo, and that's what I keep in my shotgun. I have a few boxes of 00 Buck, but I prefer 4 Buck out of MY gun. 4 shot would be the smallest I would feel comfortable to use, if I had to in a pinch.
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Old 05-25-2013, 03:35 AM
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Just an old guy. Still use same system that I had in the patrol car.
5 rounds of 00 buckshot loaded into my 7 capacity magazine, 18 1/2 inch barrel. Buy new buckshot every Christmas.
5 rounds of 00 buckshot downrange......and you still got trouble?
That's a LOT of trouble.
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Old 05-25-2013, 06:30 AM
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00 Buck for me.
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Old 05-25-2013, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
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00 Buck for me.
After tearing up some stuff with 00 buck in my Mossberg 930 I think I would rather someone try to shoot me with a hand gun..

You get shot with 00 buck at close range and you are going to be leaking out of a lot of holes....
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Old 05-26-2013, 01:31 AM
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#4 buckshot for me. The shotgun is an old 870 with riot bbl length of about 19". Houses are spread far apart not like the old house I had on Long island.Frank
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Old 05-26-2013, 01:39 AM
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For my 20 I use #4 buck. If I had a 12, I'd use #4 buck.
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Old 05-26-2013, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkk41 View Post
Does anyone realistically have a 25yd possible shot inside their home?
Yep, in our former ranch style house both upstairs and downstairs. Having had a day to think about it, there are trailers long enough do so.

Last edited by WR Moore; 05-30-2013 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog 521 View Post
I use #4 buckshot in my Winchester Defender. It patterns nice and works in the gun with no problems.
I remember reading a good piece in a gun rag some years back. They built Sheetrock covered 2x4 interior walls and fired on them with 12 ga rounds. All the buck (and slugs) over penetrated 2-3 in line wall sections. The #4 went through one wall and 1/2 the next. i.e You could still get lead to the badguy but not your neighbor. Much safer for home defense
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Old 05-29-2013, 12:32 PM
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I use 2 3/4 inch 00 Buck only because everything else I have is #8's.
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Old 05-30-2013, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wee Hooker View Post
I remember reading a good piece in a gun rag some years back. They built Sheetrock covered 2x4 interior walls and fired on them with 12 ga rounds. All the buck (and slugs) over penetrated 2-3 in line wall sections. The #4 went through one wall and 1/2 the next. i.e You could still get lead to the badguy but not your neighbor. Much safer for home defense
Not strictly for shotguns but along the same line.
Tulsa PD penetration test:
TPD (Tulsa Police) Ballistic Penetration Test
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Old 06-02-2013, 12:00 PM
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For in home work I'm happy with good old bird shot: 1 1/8 oz of lead #2,4,6, or 7 1/2 is plenty.
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