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  #1  
Old 05-18-2013, 02:58 PM
CoMF CoMF is offline
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Default News for Remington "FBI Load" fans:

Apologies in advance if this has already been addressed, but while I was perusing MidwayUSA's website I noticed a new line of ammo from Remington called High Terminal Performance (HTP), and included in that line is the tried and true LHP (LSWCHP) +P!

The differences are where it gets interesting... According to Remington's own website, the new load has higher retained velocities and muzzle energy from a 4" vented test barrel (890/872/855 and 278/267/256 versus 890/855/823 and 278/257/238 at 0/50/100 yards, respectively), but has standard brass cases as opposed to the Express line's nickel plated ones and apparently will retail for less than the latter.

If anyone has any information to add about this new product line, please feel free to add to this thread. I can't wait until it becomes available so I can see for myself if the new HTP line is a better value than the old Express line. I'm especially curious to know how they achieved better RV/RME with the new stuff... Better powders? New bullet?
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Old 05-18-2013, 03:24 PM
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This looks very promising indeed, I look forward to trying some. I prefer unplated brass anyways, so the changes all sound welcome to me.
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Old 05-18-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Waywatcher View Post
This looks very promising indeed, I look forward to trying some. I prefer unplated brass anyways, so the changes all sound welcome to me.
If I reloaded, the brass cases would be a welcome change for me as well. My biggest concerns are the bullet being the same as the one that's been used for years (i.e. the one that "works" and has a proven track record), that the brass isn't the same cheap quality reserved for inexpensive plinking ammo, and that the QC isn't going to take a nose dive. I for one do not want to see a return to the days of misshapen bullet noses, sloppy primer sealing, bullet lube encrusted casings and bullets seated to the absolute bare minimum depth resulting in headaches with speedloaders due to the increased OAL.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:00 PM
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This may show my ignorance but...why? Isn't the "FBI Loads" sole purpose to be shot out of snub noses? Their stating 20 fps and 10 FT LBS at 50 yards???

Last edited by markush; 05-18-2013 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markush View Post
This may show my ignorance but...why? Isn't the "FBI Loads" sole purpose to be shot out of snub noses?
Well, not exactly... It's just a happy coincidence that Remington's version of this load seems to work surprisingly well at snub nose velocities.

However, I can see why this may feel like Remington is "reinventing the wheel," so to speak.

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Originally Posted by markush View Post
Their stating 20 fps and 10 FT LBS at 50 yards???
Seems to be, if the numbers are to be believed. My biggest question is: How the heck are they accomplishing this? I half wonder if they changed the bullet...

Last edited by CoMF; 05-18-2013 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:03 PM
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double post

Last edited by markush; 05-18-2013 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 05-18-2013, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by markush View Post
This may show my ignorance but...why? Isn't the "FBI Loads" sole purpose to be shot out of snub noses? Their stating 20 fps and 10 FT LBS at 50 yards???
The FBI traditionally issued "service revolvers," not snub nose revolvers. Their qualification course, until comparatively recently, had a 60 yard stage.
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Old 05-18-2013, 05:44 PM
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If both the old and new bullet are the same weight, and start at the same velocity, yet the new bullet retains down range velocity better, then they had to change the bullet somehow to slightly increase its BC.

Why, I don't know, as the increases are basically meaningless, and the soft lead Remington version of the FBI load always had a good reputation as it was for expansion and penetration.

Larry
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:31 PM
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Better BC bullet, I would think...........
What ever they did , I hope the bullet is still dead soft lead that will expand a little out of a snub nose.

I never checked..................Just shot them.
was the original "FBI" load a flat base, beveled base bullet or a small convex like some Federal target bullets?

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 05-19-2013 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:22 PM
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And Midway defines "coming soon" as 10/1/2013. I would expect that date gets moved back to sometime in 2014 at the earliest.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:07 PM
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And Midway defines "coming soon" as 10/1/2013. I would expect that date gets moved back to sometime in 2014 at the earliest.
Ain't that the truth!
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  #12  
Old 05-19-2013, 09:17 AM
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The general consensus seems to be that the most likely explanation for the mildly improved RV/RME numbers is a revised bullet design with a better ballistic coefficient. This makes perfect sense, at least to me anyway. However, I'm hoping it still retains the same construction and expansion characteristics of the Express bullet just as you folks are.

Also, a quick Google search has revealed that there's a smattering of online sellers that have it listed in their catalogs. Naturally, it's "sold out" across the board... Then again, they could just be following the MidwayUSA example of listing something that hasn't even been released into mass circulation yet.

I'm going to see if my LGS can obtain some from their distributor later this week. If anyone's interested in trying to do the same, the Remington box number is RTP38S12. If, by some miracle, anybody is able to obtain some, by all means post some photos and perhaps a range review in a seperate thread. I intend to do the same if I can actually chase down this new load.
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  #13  
Old 05-19-2013, 12:00 PM
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Call me a sentimental old fool, but I'm going to need so see some real testing to think this will really be an improvement. I've carried the Express version for years, and am thinking about trying the Buffalo Bore non-+P stuff for the same reason: soft lead and bullet construction that lends itself to expansion.
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:06 PM
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Appreciate CoMF's thread and all the feedback about the LHP upgrade. As do some other posters, I wonder what this 'improvement' will accomplish. If R-P wanted to improve the LHP, they should bump up the velocity back to the measured 1014 fps it chrono'd in a 4" revolver back in the mid 70s. That was a whizz-banger, as were many +Ps back then.

Afraid I won't be buying the 'new and improved.' I still have a couple of boxes of the 70s W-W ammo, both the SPD-LHP and the WCP semi-WC, to use W-W's terminology. No, they're not for sale:
they're presently gainfully employed in the chambers of my revolvers.

CoMF: Thanks again!
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  #15  
Old 05-19-2013, 01:45 PM
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My opinion and only my opinion, it's the same old ammo packaged in a newer box so they can charge us more. With a brand new box and name we can charge them more!!!
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Old 05-19-2013, 01:50 PM
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I'd be remiss if not warning folks against using the FBI LSWCHP+P load in lightweight snubbies like the 642 and 442. These will drive the light gun back sharply, and the remaining heavy bullets, through the principle of inertia at rest, tend to stay in place; the effect is that the bullets can and will pull from their cases and protrude from the face of the cylinder; this ties the gun up. The all-steel versions such as the 640 and 649 don't have this potential problem.

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Last edited by PALADIN85020; 05-19-2013 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:57 PM
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kaaskop,

No problem, and you're quite welcome. I'm just happy to get the word out because I know this load has a pretty devoted following, myself included.

Also, I don't blame you one bit for holding on to that stash! If this new HTP line proves to be a waste of money, I fortunately have a decent quantity of the Express ammo stored away and will continue to buy it as long as Remington doesn't discontinue that line.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by shouldazagged View Post
Call me a sentimental old fool, but I'm going to need so see some real testing to think this will really be an improvement.
Funny you should mention that. I wonder if we could find out the answer to that by sending a box (once it's available) and a small monetary donation to Brass Fetcher or tnoutdoors9?
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
I'd be remiss if not warning folks against using the FBI LSWCHP+P load in lightweight snubbies like the 642 and 442. These will drive the light gun back sharply, and the remaining heavy bullets, through the principle of inertia at rest, tend to stay in place; the effect is that the bullets can and will pull from their cases and protrude from the face of the cylinder; this ties the gun up. The all-steel versions such as the 640 and 649 don't have this potential problem.

John
I have not had this problem in the 642 or 442 using the Winchester version. I have not tried this load in the AirLight Ti revolver line, so I cannot speak to whether it occurs with the 342 and similar scandium/titanium revolvers.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:42 PM
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yay! Hopefully it won't be $60.00 a box. Remington stuff has skyrocketed
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malpasowildlifer View Post
yay! Hopefully it won't be $60.00 a box. Remington stuff has skyrocketed

Follow the OP's link to Midway. The price is approx. $10.00 CHEAPER than the original.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn mccarver View Post
I have not had this problem in the 642 or 442 using the Winchester version. I have not tried this load in the AirLight Ti revolver line, so I cannot speak to whether it occurs with the 342 and similar scandium/titanium revolvers.
I have fired the Federal Nyclad 158 grain LSWCHP+P in my 340PD without a problem (other than very noticeable recoil).
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:56 PM
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Angel;

You might be on to something ?

Maybe they cleaned that test barrel real good and left a little oil in it to get those extra fps...............................

Did seem on the low side for a "New Improved" load.............
but we all know what that type of label means in the grocery store. Less weight or size and higher cost!!
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
Angel;

You might be on to something ?

Maybe they cleaned that test barrel real good and left a little oil in it to get those extra fps...............................

Did seem on the low side for a "New Improved" load.............
but we all know what that type of label means in the grocery store. Less weight or size and higher cost!!
What bothers me about them telling you it's "New and Improved" means the original stuff was "Old and ******", no?? LOL
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn mccarver View Post
I have not had this problem in the 642 or 442 using the Winchester version. I have not tried this load in the AirLight Ti revolver line, so I cannot speak to whether it occurs with the 342 and similar scandium/titanium revolvers.
Same here.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:34 AM
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I wouldn't worry about bullet jumping if having a good tight crimp. I've shoot full blown 158gr .357 mag rounds in my 360 and the recoil is brutal, but no bullet jumping occurred.
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Old 06-02-2013, 05:23 PM
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Subtle changes in bullet design and lubrication might increase velocity slightly. This may be the route that the new Remington ammo took.
For example, a wasp-waisted bullet where only the front and rear portion of the bullet actually touch the rifling reduces friction.
Dry lubricants have improved somewhat over the years. However, the old Alox/Beeswax mix that has been used on cast bullets since the early 20th century is pretty hard to beat. It works well at every handgun bullet velocity.
Lead bullets with a knurled surface containing dry lubricant, such as those made by Hornady, is said to work better than grease grooves for holding lubricant. My own experiments show no difference between knurled bullets, or those simply sprayed or dipped in a liquid lubricant that dries.
Both work equally well up to about 1,000 fps, then leading becomes a big problem. This may be due more to the soft bullet alloy than the lubricant; I don't know of any bullet mould that produces a knurled bullet, or a device to put knurling on a conventional lead bullet, so experiments with a hard alloy bullet could be conducted.
In the 1960s, Super-Vel pioneered the concept of lighter jacketed handgun bullets at high velocity. Reloaders who tried to duplicate Super-Vel loads were generally stymied.
At the time, many believed that Super-Vel had access to a non-canister powder that gave it the edge.
At some point, the diameter of jacketed Super-Vel bullets, pulled from factory ammo, was measured. It was learned that Super-Vel was using .355" bullets in its .38 Special and .357 Magnum factory ammo: the smaller bullet created less friction than the standard .357 or .358" bullets that other factories used, aiding accuracy.
So perhaps the new Remington ammo has a very slightly reduced bullet size.
Super-Vel figured that its ammo would only be used out to 25 yards on the range, so a slight reduction in accuracy from using a smaller bullet wouldn't be noticed. And it wasn't.
Incidentally, for decades Colt was producing its double-action .357 Magnum revolvers with barrels measuring .355 and .356 inch. Smith & Wesson barrels ran .357.
Presumably, Super-Vel ammo was slightly more accurate in the Colts, but I've never seen that reported.
So, if I wanted to increase velocity without a resultant increase in pressure, and maintain the same bullet weight, I'd:
1. Reduce bullet diameter to .355 inch
2. Use the very finest dry lubricant I could find.
3. Create a bullet with minimal contact to the bore, probably a design where only the front and rear of the bullet ride the grooves.
It will be interesting to try this new Remington load, once shooters stop hoarding for the big U.N. gun takeaway, Zombie attack, end of civilization, legislation that strips citizen gun ownership from the Constitution or whatever they fear.
All of this hoarding is aggravating, but at least it's revealed which gun stores are friendly, and which have no qualms about gouging. After the shelves become restocked again, I'll remember who treated me decently -- and who looked upon me as a Walk-In Wallet.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:24 PM
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Just FYI... my LGS had a ton of this in stock this afternoon. A good 'ol FBI load for $29 / 50 rounds isn't too bad of a deal in this environment. I don't believe the brass is "unplated" however. (It's nickle colored.)
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:46 AM
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New AMMO, wanna bet the ATTORNEYS at Remington control the REAL ballistics.
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:20 AM
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I goofed up here, just popped on and posted before looking and basically duplicated your post. Didn't mean to step on your toes! Anyhoo, found these at a LGS for $28.00 a box.
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Old 07-14-2013, 11:02 AM
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I have fired the Federal Nyclad 158 grain LSWCHP+P in my 340PD without a problem (other than very noticeable recoil).
That has been my experience, also, in my 342PD. Does Federal still make that ammo?
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  #32  
Old 07-14-2013, 11:06 AM
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"New and improved" or putting a fancy new name on an old standby generally means an increase in price. Hopefully that will not be the case.
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Old 07-14-2013, 12:05 PM
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Gents, thank you for helping keep this thread current. On another thread, Ben hutcherson was kind enough to post a photograph of the new HTP load at my behest. From the looks of it, it appears that Remington decided to continue using nickel plated cases as opposed to unplated brass.

Outwardly, the quality appears to be the same as the Express loading. It could just be me, but I'd swear the noses on the HTP were just ever so slightly more tapered.

Last edited by CoMF; 10-23-2014 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:13 PM
Rgoodwin Rgoodwin is offline
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Here's some 9mm I shot yesterday .ImageUploadedByTapatalk1373854374.282685.jpg
Very accurate.
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Old 07-15-2013, 06:29 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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For those yearning for velocities from the 1970s.......

They were fired in unvented test barrels longer than standard pistol barrels and their pressures were measured by the copper crusher system.

The new piezo system has revealed higher than SAAMI spec pressures and vented barrels get closer to real world velocities.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:58 PM
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I agree that this is more than likely the same old FBI load with a new box (and probably a new price). AFAIK they always sealed the primers and bullets with waterproofing and they always used a soft lead bullet meant to expand. So what's new??

There is however a MISTAKE with the technical data that is posted on Midway's site. They state the velocity is 945 fps yielding 248 ft lbs. of muzzle energy. For a 158 grain bullet moving at 945 the CORRECT muzzle energy SHOULD BE 313 foot pounds. So ....... either the velocity or the muzzle energy is incorrect.

That said..............

Buffalo Bore has the same configuration and weight bullet available NOW. To compare, out of a 4" bbl. Vel. is 1162 ft/sec. and the energy is 474 ft lbs. which is low end .357 Magnum ballistics and blows away the Remington.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

Last edited by chief38; 07-15-2013 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
Buffalo Bore has the same configuration and weight bullet available NOW. To compare, out of a 4" bbl. Vel. is 1162 ft/sec. and the energy is 474 ft lbs. which is low end .357 Magnum ballistics and blows away the Remington.
Well, well. If it isn't my favorite Buffalo Bore salesman.

Sorry Chief, but those little boutique boxes are not as good a value as the Remington 50-count boxes, nor do BB's bullets expand as reliably as the tried and true Remington version, at least as far as informal testing with the standard velocity version is concerned. (Besides, aren't those Rim Rock bullets supposed to be SOFTER?)

I have loads of scientific data to show that the Remington FBI load penetrates a minimum of 12" and expands more often than not from a snub. Do you have any test data to support the "more MV/ME is better" theory? Not trying to be snarky, but I'm not buying into the hype. Real world terminal ballistics and scientific testing appeal to me more than big MV/ME numbers.

If it doesn't penetrate at least 12" and isn't a fairly robust expander, I think I'll just stick with my "clunky," proven Remingtons.
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Old 07-16-2013, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shouldazagged View Post
Call me a sentimental old fool, but I'm going to need so see some real testing to think this will really be an improvement. I've carried the Express version for years, and am thinking about trying the Buffalo Bore non-+P stuff for the same reason: soft lead and bullet construction that lends itself to expansion.
Yeah...It worked very well for all these years - no need to "fix" it...unless it's a sales gimick...


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  #39  
Old 07-16-2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoMF View Post
Well, well. If it isn't my favorite Buffalo Bore salesman.

Sorry Chief, but those little boutique boxes are not as good a value as the Remington 50-count boxes, nor do BB's bullets expand as reliably as the tried and true Remington version, at least as far as informal testing with the standard velocity version is concerned. (Besides, aren't those Rim Rock bullets supposed to be SOFTER?)

I have loads of scientific data to show that the Remington FBI load penetrates a minimum of 12" and expands more often than not from a snub. Do you have any test data to support the "more MV/ME is better" theory? Not trying to be snarky, but I'm not buying into the hype. Real world terminal ballistics and scientific testing appeal to me more than big MV/ME numbers.

If it doesn't penetrate at least 12" and isn't a fairly robust expander, I think I'll just stick with my "clunky," proven Remingtons.
Not bad-mouthing Remington's FBI load at all. It IS a reliable expander and has been around for many many years. Yes you are also correct that the Buffalo Bore 158 grain HP will not expand as much as the Remington will - tested them myself, but the BB does expand somewhat. To me shot placement is #1, Penetration is #2 and expansion is #3. I also agree that the Buffalo Bore ammo is costly - more than twice the price of the Remington, HOWEVER...... I also believe that the same weight slug moving out of my 2' Chief's Special at 200 fps faster will penetrate much better ( especially when winter clothing is worn ) and will mean much greater shocking (stopping) power. Penetration is needed to reach vital organs when heavy clothing is involved.

1025 ft/sec out of a 2" bbl. is low end .357 Magnum performance - and I don't think too many will argue that the .357 isn't much better than a 38 Special. Don't want to turn this into an p. match and that's why they make both I suppose. I just wanted to simply point out the advantages of the BB over the Big 3's offerings IF you like them.

Since I do not use them for regular plinking and target shooting the cost is not a major factor in which defense ammo I choose. For practice I hand load and thus the cost is irrelevant and I am not looking for a bargain when it comes to the cost for self defense ammunition - just the best I can get into my 2" M60.

Last edited by chief38; 07-16-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 07-16-2013, 12:51 PM
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Oh by the way, just got off the phone with Remington and they confirmed that the "NEW HTP AMMO" in the 38 Special FBI load is the exact same ammo it has been and all that has changed is the packaging. The ballistics, bullet, powder, primers are identical to the R38S12 in the older packaging. Just thought some might be wondering.

Last edited by chief38; 07-16-2013 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 07-16-2013, 07:40 PM
JayFramer JayFramer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
Oh by the way, just got off the phone with Remington and they confirmed that the "NEW HTP AMMO" in the 38 Special FBI load is the exact same ammo it has been and all that has changed is the packaging. The ballistics, bullet, powder, primers are identical to the R38S12 in the older packaging. Just thought some might be wondering.
Hmm. Well at least they are still planning on including this old dog in there future line. That load takes freakin' souls!
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Old 07-16-2013, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
Oh by the way, just got off the phone with Remington and they confirmed that the "NEW HTP AMMO" in the 38 Special FBI load is the exact same ammo it has been and all that has changed is the packaging. The ballistics, bullet, powder, primers are identical to the R38S12 in the older packaging. Just thought some might be wondering.
That's good to hear. I'm an old-fashioned guy who likes stuff that has been working nicely for decades, like J-frames.
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Old 07-16-2013, 11:10 PM
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I shot some of the old & the new today in my trusty Model 13-3 DAO today and no difference in report or accuracy. It is a nail driver in this revolver. It's a great old load for sure.
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  #44  
Old 07-16-2013, 11:48 PM
CoMF CoMF is offline
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Hi, Chief. Before I continue, just so we're clear, I have nothing personal against ya.

I've always opined that if someone can achieve solid hits with their chosen defensive ammo, it's just as important as terminal performance so long as they're honest enough to admit its shortcomings. If BB works great for you, then by all means stick with it. For me, having fired everything from target wadcutters all the way up to CorBon's screaming lightweights, the Remington FBI load is about as much as I can personally handle from a wee Chief's Special without wandering all over the target while still having the peace of mind knowing it's a proven performer.

I'm also of the opinion that sometimes, less really is more, and the best evidence of this can be found in the reduced recoil 00 buck or slug loads by Federal or Speer's quasi-Magnum .357 Gold Dot short barrel load which I'd trust over BB's iteration of the FBI load if my EDC were a Magnum J-frame.

At any rate, it's good to know the load is essentially unchanged per your conversation with Remington save for the modest increase in retained MV/ME. Heck, it's essentially the Express load for less, and I won't complain about that.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:43 AM
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CoMF:

I appreciate that and no offense of any type intended here either. I am glad to be able to have these discussions so others might learn from them - one way or the other. Civil and polite debates are always a positive thing IMHO. I don't expect you to change your mind, and I don't think I'll go back either, but I do respect other peoples opinions.

The Remington FBI load is OBVIOUSLY a winner by virtue of its longevity and sales. It would have never survived if it were a dog!
I used it for 25 years myself up until about 4 years ago when I started testing others brands and types of ammo. I especially focused on the 38 Special because that is what my daily carry is and so I went out and bought a Chronograph and started doing some testing.

A man who can place 5 38 Special Remingtons in the right place rapidly and accurately is far better off than a man who can't hit squat with a 44 magnum - no doubt. When NEW SHOOTERS ask me for my recommendation on carry ammo I always tell them to start with either the FBI - Rem's or the Speer Gold Dot. Not that I think they are better loads than the BB but I know for a fact the BB takes some getting used to before it should be carried! 5 shots sprayed all over everywhere except the intended target is useless.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the HEAVY +P BB load out of a 2" revolver is about what a low end .357 Magnum would do. According to Sanow and other FBI tests that I have read over the years the number one man stopper has always been the .357 Magnum and so if I can closely duplicate that, handle accurately and quickly from the 2" snubby why not do so? I can tell you (from many Chronograph results) there is no load anywhere from any manufacturer that makes a more consistent performing round than BB! If you have access to a Chronograph try it - seeing is believing. then do some penetration testing, some small game hunting and you will see the difference.

Again, if you feel completely satisfied, comfortable and confident that you are carrying the best you can, then you are doing the right thing and I would not want to change that. I do think the Rem-FBI load is very good.

Oh, and by the way as long as we are discussing the FBI load...... for some reason the Winchester Brand (same load configuration) runs about 90 - 100 feet per second slower out of my 2" Chief's Special than the Remingtons do, so I would stay away from them as defense loads. And by the way I like Winchester ammo - think it's very high quality but for some reason THEIR version of the FBI load is a lot slower than the Rem. is.

Regards,
Chief38

Last edited by chief38; 07-18-2013 at 08:52 AM.
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  #46  
Old 07-18-2013, 12:15 PM
CoMF CoMF is offline
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Chief,

It's not just you. The late Stephen A. Camp also noted in his own personal testing that Winchester's version of the FBI load chronoed slower and more inconsistently than the Remington version. If memory serves correctly, the X38SPD bullet also uses a harder alloy which has expansion issues at slower velocities, so I myself would be hesitant to use it in anything other than service length barrels of 4" or more.

It's definitely a testament to BB's quality control if their ammo gives consistent velocities, and I can see where the increased velocity would be of benefit in hunting. However, wasn't Marshall and Sanow's top pick in .357 Magnum always the 125 gr. (S)JHP by either Federal or Remington? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression they favored light for caliber bullets over heavier ones.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:07 PM
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CoMF:

You are not wrong - it was the Federal 125 grain 357 Mag. SJHP that they rated No. 1 but that was before they fully understood the downside to the lightweight magnum loads (flame cutting and extreme muzzle flash), especially in K and J frames. I used to use the 125's and switched years ago to the 158 grainers to avoid some of these problems. The 158's are STILL quite good stoppers, almost as good as the 125's and there is less likely to be damage to the gun from them. I will gladly sacrifice a small loss in velocity for a gain in bullet weight.

If you are gonna stick with the FBI loads, the Rem's. are the best of the bunch from the Big 4 Company's (Rem. Win. CCI, Fed.).

By the way, the expansion tests on Youtube (at least the one I watched) was for the BB NON +P 158. The +P does expand more and more reliably. The expansion tests I have done have been informal backyard tests using wood, newspapers soaked in water, Phone directories and pails filled with water. I will not state that they are scientific, official or the best testing methods, but at least it gives me the opportunity to compare different load with the same test media. The Remington FBI load does expand more evenly and to a larger diameter, I just wish it had a bit more penetration than it currently has.

Let's hope neither one of us ever has to find out first hand how they work on people!
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