I have a m&p 9mm fullsize and been shooting it for some time now... brand new to the forum as a member but have followed it quite a bit... do my fair share of range shooting where I basically just shoot the 115 grain lawman **** bc I get it pretty cheap from a buddy that owns his own shop and carry hollows but recently he came acrossed some gold dot +p+ hollows and have been carrying those since. I have only shot a handful threw it and no issues but could definitely feel the difference... I know the wear and tear on the gun is substantially more but if I'm only gonna shoot them if its a life and death situation wear and tear are the least of my concerns... basically just looking for some input from other sources/people on the subject... and I can see the argument of the gun blowing up in my face but seems a far stretch to see that actually happening

This has been covered before but in a modern well made 9mm pistol, 115gr +P+ ammo will work for SD use, however the lighter standard and +P ammo is much better for targets and practice to prolong the guns parts and wear and tear.

In WWll the +P+ ammo was invented for the machine guns, that needed the extra energy to work the actions. The Luger used the standard or +P ammo, only.

Its fine. Its even fine to shoot a few boxes every so often.

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+P+ will not really cause that much more wear. I have used it for years, to no real ill-effects, including once firing 1,000 rounds of +P+ in the little SW9M as a test.

+P+ is about the same as 9 NATO in terms of pressures, and both are hotter than most of the 9mm that we in the US use for ordinary practice.

Look at it this way: S&W wanted its 2nd Gen 459 to be approved by the military to use 9 NATO, and by all accounts it fared very well in terms of its ability to handle that round.

Also, most big police departments use +P+, including the Illinois State Police in their S&Ws. S&W knows this and knew this when it designed the M&P.

The company official line of no +P+ is more about no official SAAMI spec than it is that the pistols cannot handle it. It is because without standards, any company can call a crazy load a +P+ and if the crazy load blows up the S&W, then guess who the "deep pocket" is in the event of injury.

So sounds like I was on the right track... its funny you say that the police use it just bc my boxes of the +p+ say for law enforcement use only and m&p having p for police I figured they would at least be capable of shooting it and i trust gold dot.... still don't necessarily care to shoot it much for no other reason than its expensive... appreciate the extra insight though wasn't aware of the 9 NATO being hotter than standard 9

The 9x19mm designation of "+P" and "+P+" did not exist during WWII. During this era there were some loads designed and designated for sub machine guns, some loads were for pistols. Many of the various 9x19mm loadings made before, during and after WWII were used interchangeably between both pistols and SMG's.

Just so you can't say that you didn't know, this is not an argument but it is a quote from your Owners Manual:

“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safe- ty. Use of “Plus-P” ammunition may result in the need for more frequent service.

“Plus-P-Plus” (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith & Wesson firearms. This marking on the ammunition designates that it exceeds established industry standards, but the designation does not represent defined pressure limits and therefore such ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated and could be DANGEROUS."

No doubt S&W has a special deal with LE where they will repair or replace pistols shot up with +P+ but we citizens don't have the same luxury. (shrug)

And, in WWII we didn't use 9mm on an issue basis, only rare specialties. There were no U.S. "standard" or "full" military loads for the 9mm.

The Germans were the users of 9mm in the Luger, P-38, and M40. They didn't have any designations comparable to SAAMI standards.

Up until the adoption of the M-9 in 1990, the U.S. military only issued 9mm to certain special units and for small numbers of General Officer S&W Model 39 and Browning Hi-Power pistols. The standard round for those pistols, the issue round, is the 124 NATO. Some specialized units such as the AFOSI and the Army's CID procure certain +P rounds for use in Sig 228s, etc.

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Ah, no. The agencies that requested the development of +P+ ammuniton (actually that's not what they asked for, see next paragraph) signed hold harmless agreements with the ammunition companies acknowledging that use of such ammunition would cause excessive wear and could result in damaged weapons, injuries and/or death of their employees. This insulated the ammo companies from liability and the agencies assumed all liability, including the repair bills. Then and only then was the ammunition delivered.

+P+ ammunition was developed originally to allow the use of .38 Spl headstamped ammunition to produce .357 Magnum performance and was intended only for use in revolvers chambered for .357 Magnum. This was done to avoid ACLU hysterics about magnum ammo inflicting cruel and unusual punishment. 9mm +P+ was developed in an effort to get the JHP bullets of the day to expand.

Unless you pressure test your individual rounds, you'll never know the pressures developed (and those results will only be good for that ammo lot), which is the point of S&W saying don't use it. It very well could be that some +P+ is about the same pressure as ammunition produced under CIP (European) pressure standards. On the other hand, the next lot may not be.

Typically, US made 9mm isn't loaded as hot as european ammo, our +P gets close. This isn't necessarily because of pressure limits, but because manufacturers load to a velocity specification, not a pressure limit. Some push the envelope further than others. Much of the production of US ammo companies is based upon a price point rather than performance.

BTW, some +P+ is dangerous, not because of pressures, but because a bullet is being driven at velocities outside it's design envelope. They don't expand, they shred. This can result in insufficient penetration, particularly where intermediate obstacles like limbs of the body are involved. I'd be less concerned about magic bullets, maximum performance and more concerned with bullet placement.

Also, doesn't anyone do a search for previous threads on any topic????????????????????

Did some research and found out that the German submachine gun model MP40 had a 10 inch barrel and the velocity of a 124gr bullet was 1312 fps.

This leaves out what we call today a +P+ load and leaves the High Vel load and the standard load used in the Luger.

Another post said that the MP40 ammo would mess up a Luger in just a few loads, so that leaves the "High Vel" load of the day for the MP40 (64 to a box)and the "Standard" load (16 to a box)for the Germans 9mm pistols.
Also found out that Euro load was raised after the war from 2600 BAR to 3000 BAR, which must have been the NATO rounds kicking in with a maximum of 34,084 psi.
Later the Russians had developed a supped up 9mm for their pistols with a steel penetrating bullet that had a psi of 41,000 !!
Later.

Obviously not.

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Thank for the full explanation.

Besides, if one does research previous threads in these forums, one will find that every possible question on any subject in the known universe has already been fully dissected and we would have nothing to talk about.