So, I was walking around the woods today with my Charter Arms .44spl loaded with Hornaday's "Critical Defense" 165gr FTX but had a box of MagTech 240gr L-Flat Nose Cowboy loads at the house and it got me to thinikin'. If I were to come across a ferrel dog, bear, 2-legged vermin, Zombi, (name your nemesis) would it really matter? Looking for your oppinion.

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"You're messin' up my Zen"

Shot placement is more important that type of bullet, a hit with a FMJ is better than a miss with a Black Zombie Explosive Expander bullet. With that being said, if I were to limit my self to one bullet style for woodland or social situations it would be good full weight for caliber hard cast SWC bullet.

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

No.
Constitutional law would be suspended , martial law would be declared and citizens would be disarmed on sight.

As the Marine stated,...... it's all about shot placement. Good projectiles are important but you must place your shots where they will do the most good.

OK, so martial law be damned and shot placement not withstanding.....

What really got me to thinking about it is the fact that the 165gr FTX was ASTRONOMICALLY expensive and the Cowboy loads only marginally so. When I got back up to the house, I touched off a few of the FTX just for fun I realized, "****, that was a quick $2.00" and wondered why I paid what I paid for the FTX when, in reality, the Cowboy loads would probably do in a life and death situation.

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"You're messin' up my Zen"

Which ever it may be, it matters that it goes bang every time.

Doubtful. The civil authorities would have their hands full with the various riots and such to go about confiscatin weapons. So unless your walkin about your neighborhood with an AR or whatever slung out where everybody can see it, I wouldn't fret it much.
Most cops know that the civvies will take care of their own if the balloon goes up.

As for the ammo question, no it doesn't matter. Just so long as you put it in the right spot, it'll do its job. Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

It's that "probably do" part your paying for, ie, trying to make the probability of your survival greater. That may or may not be worth $2 a round for you, only you can be the judge.

ETA I think some folks are confusing SHTF with TEOTWAWKI

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

OK, clearly I should have asked the question differently:

If I'm in the woods and confronted with bear, ferrel dog, 2-legged vermin, etc. Does the $2.00 per round (figuratively) really make that much difference in survival than the $1.00 per round does?

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"You're messin' up my Zen"

Along with the idea that shot placement is the chief consideration, I need to use ammo that I can consistently shoot accurately with. I try to shoot the same round I would have to shoot, if I had to shoot it. I have, and carry a Bull Dog 44, and I shot it a while back, forgetting to remove the flame thrower "self defense" rounds, and I couldn't shoot them very well. I like the big, heavy, slow, gum ball lead bullets, but that's just me. See how you shoot with the cow boy stuff; find out what works for you. Just the sound of that sucker will suffice for many occasions.

Placement and penetration are the most important considerations (aside from having a gun with you when you need it). No argument from anyone about those two. Bullets (any kind) from most non-magnum handgun rounds don't expand much anyway. Except maybe in Alaska and a few remote areas in the lower 48, it's unlikely that you would come across any hostile animals (even human ones) you couldn't handle, if necessary, with a .22, which is more effective than many realize. I suppose the current shortage of .22 ammunition might substantiate that belief.

In my handguns I shoot FMJ or wadcutters, carry loads get one of the high price spreads.

Maybe not even that. When I used to dispatch fire/EMS in a Southern California fire comm center we'd sometimes talk about what if the Big One, the killer quake hit; would you stay on duty or respond to work if off duty? Every single one of them said, "No!" Family came first 100%. So it's highly likely that you'll dial 9-1-1 and just get a dial tone. BTW I was the chump who said I'd show up even if I had to use a portable to communicate.

Nowadays I'm retired and don't need to worry about firing up the ambulance or answering the radio. Just give me a rag to wipe up the S when it HTF and any useful caliber, and it'll be fine.

I'd advise keep 500-1000 rounds of the good stuff around and a few thousand rounds of anything that goes bang in case the "event" is a long term one. .44,.45 etc makes a big hole, before expansion, there are a lot of German and Japanese War dead who can attest to that.

Restated: If I shoot a bear, zombi, 2-legged vermin, etc with the FTX in the same spot as I shoot it with the Cowboy load, will the result be the same?

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"You're messin' up my Zen"

If the same spot means "right between the eyes"... the result would likely be the same. The bear, 2-legged vermin, etc would be dead and the zombi would keep on coming.

I am assuming you are talking about encountering something with a handgun. Then, even if it is a .44 mag, you need expanding bullets. Men don't drop like you saw on Gunsmoke. Plus in the case of multiple attackers you may be throwing shots that are less than well placed. To defend your home a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot is just fine.

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Luke 22:36

I stopped worrying much about stopping power a long time ago. Use what works in your gun and that you can afford. In the case of that Charter Arms (if I understand the model correctly), you're going to be pretty much limited to standard velocity and pressure. If I had that revolver, I would find a deal on a case of standard loads with plain SWC bullets and call it good. You should get accuracy and consistent penetration with that combination if you do your part.

With "marginal" rounds, yes, I know it makes a difference. I've seen things shot with 180 grain WW FMC .40 S&W rounds and I've also seen things shot with the R-P 155 grain Fed-Spec JHP's. The maximum effort JHP rounds are far more destructive on tissue.

However, based upon more than 40 years of field experience, with heavy rifle rounds such as the .300 H&H, bullet selection is not nearly as critical.

This is an average, run-of-the-mill 180 grain Speer spitzer soft point at 80 yards. Muzzle velocity is 3,000 fps.

If you could predict your predicament, you wouldn't need a gun; you could just stay home. In an unpredictable world, Smith357's answer is pretty good. So is the FBI's. You should probably have sufficient penetration to make good shot placement worthwhile. After that, the greatest terminal cross section is best. This does not necessarily correlate to price of ammo, although it's hard to badmouth Winchester .44 Mag 250gr Partitions, if you can shoot them well in your gun.

Yes it matters....in a way. While something is better then nothing a quality hp self defense round is worlds better. In fmj bigger is better and of course price matters. This is why i only own common calibers. 44mag is over a $1/round, same for 44spl, 41mag and other odd calibers. I would not want to rely on them nor stock them. Stocking them is pricy and .....if we're talking shtf......if you have to leave your area or go mobile scrounging for those calibers wouldnt be realistic.

This kind of goes back to shtf in general. I would want a common caliber in a common gun that doesnt need tweaking or gunsmith tools. So for me its polymer guns and 9, 40, 45

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

You wasted Alot of backstrap on that shot FOR SURE (Sebago Son) ; )
Y/D

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GOD/GUNS/GUTS>GET EM ALL

On a heavy skinned or boned animal (bear) a solid bullet would ,IMO, be the better round as it will penetrate deeper. On light skinned or boned animals,the JHP would be better as it will hit hard, get bigger and and penetrate enough....hopefully.

No. Cowboy loads are for killin' cowboys.

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Forum consigliere

Although HP for handguns and SP for rifles may be ideal. LRN or round ball will do the job . (they have for several hundred years)

shot placement has been pounded, so that's a given......

with that being said, IMO, if things come apart, its going to be more important to have ammo that is going to be 100% reliable and go "bang" every time, than the wiz-bang hyper-expanding zombie-exploders.

Yes; the offendi critter will spring a leak, and suffer a hematoma of unreal proportions.

Will it mean they will stop assaulting you? I dunno. Buuutt.... that is why I never use a single shot for anything but dove hunting!
Bang. Bangbangbangbang.....THUD.

Most important was as stressed by Mr Jbk.... the ammo and gun need to get along well enough that the ammo works in the gun, every time.

No, they were for killin' Injuns.

Never played cowboys and cowboys as a kid, and never desired to experiment with that silly stuff as an adult, either!

Suprisingly, no I didn't. The hit was high, as the rifle was sighted for 250 yards, but it only took upper ribs and slid in nicely under the backstrap. It was fine once I fished out a few bone slivers.

The point is that if you use enough gun to begin with, then bullet selection is not nearly as critical.

This is the result of a .35 caliber, 200 grain, off the shelf softpoint bullet at 2100 fps. This bullet's design is 50 years old.



Penetration was complete.

I've given this a lot of thought, given the experience and valid comments expressed here, and my conclusion is thus: a round that you've shot a lot of in a firearm that works every time when you pull the trigger, shot placement and practice, practice, practice works for me, regardless of the intended target. Besides, I wouldn't want to get hit with any of the afore mentioned calibers!

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Isaiah 55:8-9
Phil. 4:13

It's said here it's pick a caliber and the round your going to carry and one gun to practice, practice and more practice. Well said above for sure. But I would shoot at 25yards to practice too. Any caliber can be a stopper within reason, but the size of the varmit does matter.(bear?) When I walk in the woods with the feeling of walking into the unknown factors in and I ask myself do I carry enough gun for being situation that may arise two legged or four legged? A 9mm maybe ok for the common cities and small towns but out in the wilds the game does change. I live in the rural small farm area and we have coyotes, bobcat, lynx, mountainlions and bears all around us. To me a smaller caliber just doesn't cover it all. I seen a real life mountainlion attack in Canada on tv where a mountainlion had the Hunter by the head and it took 4 shots from a rifle before it let go. To me my 41mag or my 44mag is plenty of gun but it is about the shot placement.

I have taught my children since they were knee high to stay alert when there in the woods. To pay attention to there surroundings, use there sight,
there hearing and there nose to smell the air foul oders too. So far while walking the dog in the woods they came across a mountainlion eating a fresh kill. Luckily the lion was too busy eating to notice them. They just backed out. My point is being alert a came save your life too and teach your kids about the wilds. About foul oders most of the time if the wind is right you will smell a bear before you see it.

Sorry I don't know too much about zombies but that zombie ammo has to be the best marketing ploy I have ever seen.

IMHO; No. Though I would carry a .357 instead of a .38 if I might encounter a big animal.

If you're talking zombies, then I vote for "weight of fire". Since zombies move slow and don't shoot back, I think anything would do. I guess they kind of run in some movies...

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But then, what do I know?

For general run of the mill problems, either of the two loads you cite would be very effective, if you put the round into the vitals. If you only hit superficially, etc., then you'll have to try, try again! Of course that would be the case regardless of if you were using anything from a .22 LR right on up to a S&W .500!

I do not own a CA .44 Spc. I do however own and enjoy using a S&W 21-4. When I could find them, I routinely loaded it with 200 gr. Gold Dots for HD. For out and about in the woods, it was loaded with Winchester 240 gr. LFN Cowboy Action loads. Either load POI was POA at 15 yds. I simply could not afford enough of the GD's to actually know where they hit on small targets at 25 yds. By experience I know that the WCA ammo worked well on out at 25yds. and beyond.

If you should have a chance, you might want to see if you can find some Winchester Silver-Tip .44 Special ammo. It is perhaps not now so fashionable in the present day era that supposes all ammo selection must bow down before the high altar of FBI protocols. But when bullets were only expected to work on people, etc., word is that it was very effective.

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<><

I'll have a chicken salad sandwich and a cup of potato soup.


if you're so worried about a few cents when defending kilth&kin best you carry 2-3 guns ,a knife, a ball bat and some bear spray!!

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UNDER THE CONE OF SILENCE

Years ago I was out target shooting with my brand new Glock-O-Matic 19 and decided to save one magazine full of 9 MM FMJ for the mile or so walk back to the house.

I ended up walking up on three feral hogs in the 250 lb. class. I slowly pulled the Glock out of my shoulder holster and took dead aim right between the eyes of the closest hog, about 20 yards from me. I squeezed off a round. The hogs all ran like hell and I urged them on by emptying the full 15 rounds out of the magazine.

To this day I am sure that first shot hit and bounced off hog noggin. It was fun. The moral of the story is that you use what you have at hand, and sometimes it is better to have a Model 629 with round house loads.

Some of the answer depends on the caliber of weapon being used.

I often times carry a 4” 629 loaded with Corbon’s 165 Grn JHP at 1300 fps. (44 Mag Light)
I think it’s a better load for self defense than a 44 Special lead SWC. I hope it will expand, offering better terminal perfomance, and not over penetrate, on humans. Though I’d feel quite safe with the LSWC’s too.

I also take a Marlin Guide gun camping a lot. Does it matter if it’s loaded with low pressure 300 Grn JHP’s or low pressure 405 JSP’s? Probably not, but I still choose the 405’s. On river trips I just might have to shoot a bear.

All of my 5.56 is M193. Mostly IMI. At $0.30 per round I choose to stack it deep, rather than buy some $1.00 a round zombie killers, and a mix of other 5.56, that is see a lot of other folks do. This round actually performs better terminally for my intended use than the barrier blind rounds.

I think smaller diameter handgun rounds like the 9MM and .357, have a lot of performance to be gained by choosing a good hollow point over a fmc or non expanding round.

With your particular round, the .44 Special, I think the actual bullet makes less difference. IMHO.

Emory

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Hard To Kill

Hog heads are REAL tough and it isn't unusual for a 9 to bounce. By the same token I lost a friend, in a robbery, with one shot from a .22 to the head.

.

.
My experience with the Charter Arms chambered in .44 Special, the lite weight revolver when fired with the heavier weight bullets....
They had a tendency to jump the case crimp and end up protruding out of the cylinder, tying the revolver up.

However, from more experiences,,,,

I once shot a 500# steer in the forehead (the steer had lost a run in with a ton pickup truck) with a forty sumthing caliber JHP round....
To my amazement, I could see the base of said bullet at the point of aim, sumwhat red faced, I return'd to my cruiser and retrieved a couple of hard cast SWCs from the door pocket and finished the job.

So what works on soft tissue may or may not work as well on bone and brawn.

So, for whilst woods bummin' around and general ranch chores,
I carry mostly hard cast SWCs over a reasonable dose of my favorite powder at moderate velocities.


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I believe that was the original ? and that could cover a wide range of scenarios and topics, from dogs to bears to Zombies to terminal ballistics to aftermath legal issues etc. since the threat may not be human, may not have a gun, let's just call it a "potentially life threatening encounter" MY BELIEF is rule #1 STAY ALIVE by any and all means at your disposal. all the other rules, refer to rule #1. if you are still alive and land in court afterwards let the lawyers worry about if you used handloads/ BLACK TALONS/ or NERF bullets or what type of clothes you had on etc. obviously placement is more important than bullet selection. having a bullet capable of reaching the vital areas is nice but no bullet is gonna be the perfect choice for dogs thru grizzlies. if you have good placement and penetration then an explosively expanding bullet should not be needed, but it looks cool on Zombies. I'm getting kind of retro when back in the days of black powder, big dangerous game in Africa and India, large caliber heavy cast bullets, moving crazy slow by todays standards, were the top choice and worked well. what are you most likely to encounter on your outings, grizzlies, cape buffalo, dogs, meth heads. often a simple loud plastic whistle will send most of them running and I've never heard of anyone going to jail over one.

In revolvers, I am a fan of the heavy for caliber, moderate velocity SWC. In a light .44 special, that may present problems with the gun, as noted above. In my 296 I carry the 200 grain Gold Dot loaded in the Blazer case. I tend to stick with proven service ammo for the 45ACP auto pistols in my revolver in that caliber. In other autos, I also stick with the proven service loads (see Doc Roberts' reports). I did not have any luck finding a reasonable quality, stout load, decent price SWC in .38/.357 , so I went with the short barrel GD in .357.

I'll admit that the odds of me encountering a 4 legged animal bigger or more dangerous than a feral dog or maybe a cougar (low odds of that) are slight; most of the risk is still "humans".

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NHI, 10-8.

If/when the poop hits the prop, ammo choice won't matter because the ensuing panic will cause people to get their hands on anything they can and use it as necessary. In an area that breaks out in violent rioting, looting, etc. armed defenders will be more focused on quantity than quality in their ammo cans. Think about those Korean shop owners on the roofs of their businesses during the LA riots ... were they worried about WHAT they had in their ARs, or HOW MUCH?

The bullseye shooters and snipers among us can be confident in their "one shot one kill" abilities, but mortals like myself prefer to have as much ammo on hand as possible. If I need 10 more rounds of imported 7.62 x 39 junk than Mr. $2.00/round Match Grade Ammo to ward off an attack by two or four legged vermin, so be it.

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I'm with the banned ...

My problem with the Bulldog was primer flow. One round and I had a total lock-up. As much as I liked the Charter, I no longer had any confidence in it.

Regards,

yashua

Truth is, what ever you have in your hand or on your side had better work right at that moment. There won't be a "time out so I can go get the appropriate ammo/gun for this situation."

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War Eagle!!!

Ive packed a 44 magnum into both the roles of urban and back woods.
Its a very dynamic caliber, it does everything well provided you stack the deck properly.

Backwoods as youve mentioned .. your thinking is dead backwards ... you dont really want a light whizzbang gadget bullet here. You want an honest chunk of lead to give you the penetration you might need against anything ranging from skunks to bear .. the 165 gr mentioned will only cover the lower half of your potential needs and give up penetration on the bigger problems. Don't worry about over penetration in the back woods. Probability stands in your favor that no bad will happen if a 240 FP is a gift that keeps on giving.

The light slugs come into their own in an urban environment where a baseball sized chunk of lead careening down the street has a highly elevated risk of unintended physical and property damage, being designed to deposit energy and stop short in a target .. providing you hit it

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it just needs more voltage

Ever see The Survivors? Robin Williams is mugged, so goes to a survivalist/paramilitary training camp, to insure it does not happen again. Gets into a gunfight with Jerry Reed, then suddenly says, "Time out".

Reed says, "What?!?"

"Time out. I brought the wrong bullets. I need to go back and get the right ones.".

The Survivors (1983) - IMDb

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I always take precautions

My most common round would be hard cast SWC in .357 medium load. That will take care of anything I'm likely to run into out here. If I have to hide out in Alaska or on Kodiak Island I'd have to opt for something harder hitting.

per post #19;

Looks like the 300 MAGNUM is just a little bit on the over kill side for that size animal.

BIG hole...........lots of blood shot meat.

At 80 yards I would have tried at least one neck or head shot, first, if the gun and shooter were up to it.

Mercy.

alright let's calm down re pic #19. I think it's not as bad as it looks (IMO). was that pic of the deer hanging taken after it was field dressed? even if it was that bad it's still mission accomplished. looks like a one shot kill to me. and a 300 win mag doesn't use a 35 cal bullet. I'd guess the good ol 35 rem in a lever, or possibly a 35 wheelen. I happen to like both cartridges and even own a 375 win myself, and I'll trade some meat for a quick sure stop with some game. if a smaller hole makes you happy use a 243. saying "I WOULD HAVE SHOT IT HERE OR THERE" is classic 20/20 hindsight, you weren't there. besides we are getting way off topic.

So in the interest of being prepared,

What it best round for dealing with a zombi attack, anyway?

Fact is, you are more likely to hit the target with that cowboy load than that expensive 165 grainer. If you've shot a few out of your Charter Arms, you probably noted that they hit way lower than where you were aiming. You are better off with bullets at least 200 grains, like the Speer/Blazer GDHP.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73