Have seen a lot of write ups for the bullets and adds...........
has anyone put it to a test on accuracy, penetration and
recovered a bullet to see how it does in a snub nose?

With all the new powders this company has come up with in
the past few years and all the work and testing on their products
one would think that this load would pass with flying colors.

I don't know but I bought a box of the .38spcl lite 90 gr ftx's yesterday. It's supposed to work with the snub nose revolvers.

Well most responses you get on here are along the lines of. It has to be proven in the field. I got the Lehigh Defense ME 100gr, and didnt get very good feed back. Maybe since its Hornady, ppl will say it works.

First off, Hornady doesn't produce a 90XTP .38Spl factory load.

Secondly, using hand loaded ammo for SD is just plain foolish.

Lastly, back yard testing of ammo proves nothing when it comes to what works well for SD in actual shootings.

They make a 90 gr ftx

http://m.hornady.com/store/38-Specia...-Defense-lite/

Yes, i know, but the XTP and FTX bullets are completely two different designs. The OP's thread title mentioned XTP, not FTX.

The shop I work at got some of the Hornady 'Lite' pink-packaged stuff.
If you look at the printed ballistic data on the label - it's pretty much a .380 load in a .38 Spl.
Perhaps something good for the recoil-sensitive using lightweight revolvers.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

For me, if I want to use a 90gr bullet I would shoot a .380 Auto, not a .38 Special. I am not a fan of light bullets in any caliber especially since using one is only good for generating high velocity numbers.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

90 gr. bullets are very light for caliber and thus will likely hit somewhat lower than point of aim.

90 grain bullets have a very small bearing surface and thus might be subject to bullet jump. Need to check to see if bullets are slipping out of the cases after adjacent rounds have been fired.

These problems are fairly common with 110 bullets, so expect even more with 90s.

Better to stick with proven 125, 148, and 158 grain bullets in .38Spl.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

This is merely a ploy by Hornaday for a bigger piece of the female market as many women fear recoil and Hornaday is pandering to this with the philosophy that "something is better than nothing" and I wholeheartedly disagree. I have seen very elderly women shooting a good solid defense rd. in .38 and I subscribe to the belief that you train the shooter "up" and not dumb "down" the ammo.

I do not believe Hornady is trying to do anything but supply ammunition to those who need lighter recoil in a good self defense ammunition.

My daughter (60yoa) will receive several boxes of this ammunition for her 3" 37.

COLLECTOR:, Not arguing about the correctness of your statements, just seems nitpicking is your game--well have at it

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the world is round everywhere

You may call it nitpicking. I call it accuracy. And so far the OP hasn't come back to his own thread to clarify his original posting. Did he mean 90gr XTP (which I have pointed out that doesnt exist in a Hornady factory load) or was he confused and really mean the FTX load which does exist? Only the OP knows for sure what he meant.

There is a big difference between the XTP and FTX bullet. It's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm glad Hornady brought out a 90 grain .38 Special load. There are many that carry Airweight revolvers and simply cannot handle the recoil of the heavier bullets. It's a good option for them.

Just a quick note... Lighter bullets do not necessarily hit lower. It depends on the velocity of the particular load and how the gun is sighted also.

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Centennial Every Day

Uh, no.

Maybe not something you would do but don't disparage the thousands of us who choose to carry ammunition of our own making.

Thank You.

I fired some comparison patterns from my 638 Airweight.

Hornady's 90 gr 38 rounds hit 3-6" below Point of Aim while some 158 gr SWC range ammo hit 0-3" above PoA at 20 ft down range.

I'm not a marksman with my air weight; but I shoot significantly below PoA with these lighter loads.

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M638-3, M36, USCCA Member

A few comments regarding some of the above comments...

Mossad Ayoob cited a case once where a hand loader's wife shot herself. Long story short, there were several types of ammo in the home in that particular caliber, and the police confiscated a self defense load. During their forensic testing they decided the lack of powder stippling meant the range at which she was shot was too long for it to be a suicide and the husband was charged.

He had to hire his own forensics experts (Ayoob being one of them) to demonstrate that she'd actually shot herself with a lighter target load, and that when test that load in fact did not leave powders stippling at the range required for a self inflicted gun shot wound.

This case gets used as an example of why hand loads are "bad" for a self defense load, but it's not relevant.

Yes, there are forensic data bases that can be used to help identify the load used in a criminal shoot, but thats not the issue in a self defense shoot, as you're already identified as the shooter, the handgun is known and so is the ammo. What matter is that any forensic testing done corresponds with your account of the events.

Thus the key concern in a self defense shoot is to clearly identify the load you used. In the above example, self defense loads had nothing to do with the forensic error - the problem was difficulty identifying what load was used in the suicide.

It doesn't matter whether you use factory SD load or a hand loaded SD load - what matters is that you clearly mark your self defense loads and keep them separate from all other ammo in your home so that in the event you are involved in a shoot you can provide valid test ammo that can be used to confirm your account of the events. So, mark you SD ammo as such, and then load your SD weapon out of that box, and when the box gets low (les than 5 rounds left in the box, get a new box, mark it as your SD ammo and load your SD handgun out of that box.

I use hand loaded self defense loads for two reasons:

1. Given that I develop the load based on a velocity that is well inside the designed expansion envelops and based on 12" minimum penetration, I know exactly what performance I am getting out of my handgun; and

2. Even loaded in new brass with a 125 gr XTP, my .38 +P and .357 Magnum loads cost me about 1/3rd to 1/4th the cost of a similar self defense load. That means I can shoot my self defense loads 3 to 4 times as much for the same cost as a factory load.

There's a great deal of value in expending your carry ammo downrange every month or two. Your carry ammo very quickly becomes the crappiest ammo you own given the conditions you carry it in and rotating it on a regular basis limits how bad it can get. Expending it down range also improves your proficiency with your carry ammo and continually confirms that it functions as designed in your actual firearm.

The main problem with "back yard" testing is that it can lack rigor in terms of the ballistic gel used and the number of rounds tested. One or two rounds fired don't mean much, even in properly calibrated media, and 1 or 2 rounds fired into non calibrated media is more or less useless. But, if the shooter uses a well thought out and controlled experimental method, uses calibrated gel and uses a sufficient sample size, "back yard" testing can tell you a lot about how a particular load works in your particular firearm.

There's also the age old arguments between the folks who believe the repeatability of laboratory gelatin tests means something, and the forensics folks who put their faith in data from real world shoots.

In truth both areas have a great deal to offer, and ballistics gel tests don't mean much if you can't anchor the theories with actual results in real world shoots, with real world variables.

And at the end of the day, all pistol rounds are inadequate when it comes to stopping an assailant and it's solid bullet placement resulting in a CNS or cardio vascular hit that makes a stop.

And that requires practice, practice and more practice - particularly with a short barrel revolver like a J-frame or snub nose K frame. I've found that most people who carry them shoot them very poorly, and that's because few people who carry them are willing to shoot them enough to get good with them (particularly the J-frame).

I agree that Hornady is obviously catering to customers who want a lower recoiling load. That's a good thing if it gets them out shooting their handgun more frequently. (Read my comment above about "practice".) It's also a good thing if it gets more people, and in particular women, out shooting.

Every new shooter we welcome into the sport with open arms is another pro gun voter and we need every one we can get - regardless of whether they are black, white, brown, red or yellow; straight, or gay; Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Christian, atheist or agnostic; male, female or transexual; conservative, moderate or liberal. In fact we probably need to attract as many of the moderates and the liberals to the sport as we can as they're going to be the swing votes that matter down the road.

Here's a bit of a reality check for the .38 Special fans. You are going to be very hard pressed to find a traditional standard pressure .38 Special load that will achieve the FBI's penetration and expansion standards in bare gelatin when shot from a 2" revolver.

There are several standard pressure .38 loads that have a reputation for getting the job done - but that's when they are fired from a 4" barrel. In a 2" barrel it's another story entirely, and you need a .38 +P load to gain back the velocity lost in the short barrel.

In contrast, the lowly .380 ACP can meet the FBI criteria provided you use one of the half dozen or so commercial loads using a 90 gr XTP (or the hand loaded equivalent) AND use it in a barrel long enough to generate at least 1,000 fps. That generally means at least a 3.4" barrel (like the PPK/S). At that velocity you'll get just over 12" penetration and adequate and reliable expansion.

----

In terms of the 90 gr FTX in .38 Special, Hornady advertises a 1,200 fps MV from a 4" barrel, and realistically it should be able to make 1,000 fps in a 2" barrel. (My experience with 125 gr XTP .38 +P loads suggests about 170 fps velocity loss between a 4" and 1 7/8"barrel).

However, Hornady is using the FTX bullet, and that's not a good thing from a penetration perspective. The FTX is designed for rapid penetration and designed to avoid plugging in a heavy clothing test and it does both things very well. Unfortunately, it also expands very quickly and dramatically and at 1200 fps Hornady indicates only 8.25" penetration. That's not enough to get the job done in anything other than ideal circumstances.

The question then is whether the lower velocity in a 2" barrel would slow the expansion enough for the Hornady 90 FTX load to provide adequate penetration. I doubt it, but I'm willing to see some test results before I condemn it.

Hornady indicates the 110 gr FTX +P in a 4" barrel with a 1090 fps MV will make 11" and it's also a not quite up to the task, but again a lower velocity might slow the expansion enough to make 12" - or not.

----

Personally, I view the XTP as a much safer bet in a 2" .38 Special. The XTP bullets were designed for moderate and controlled expansion to meet the 12" minimum penetration and just barely meet the 1.5x minimum expansion requirement, rather than going over board at 1.6x or 1.65X. A such the XTP bullet are ideal for marginal calibers like the .380 ACP - or in this case a 2" .38 Special.

BAD ZOMBIE THREAD, BAD!

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

After finding some gel testing online I've decided to only carry the Hornady Critical Defense 110 gr 38 spcl. +P rounds in my S&W Airweight 638.

The gel tests showed that the lighter loads (50 gr copper 38 spcl. Liberty, 90 gr and 110 gr 38 Spcl) were very inconsistent when it came to expansion. The 38spcl. 110 gr and some of the 90 gr loads didn't expand at all in several tests and over-penetrated the 16" ballistic gelatin block.

The Critical Defense 110 gr 38 spcl.+P showed velocities just before impact on the Gel 940 Fps to 980 Fps in the tests I saw. All the +P tests I saw on that load expanded fully and penetrated 11" to 13".

Some of the lighter load, non-+P loads, in the words of the tester, "acted like FMJ rounds".

Since several of the old hands here and on other forums recommend +P loads for Snubby revolvers I guess I'll just have to learn to control them.

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M638-3, M36, USCCA Member

If you and "thousands of others" choose to carry handloads, that's certainly your choice. I wish you all the best of luck. But you may wish to read the following by Mas Ayoob.

Handloaded Ammunition: Not a Good Idea for Concealed Carry/Self Defense

It's his opinion that people shouldn't carry handloads, but it's based on sound principles.

I'm reading a Cunningham's book, "Defensive Revolver Fundamentals". It is an interesting read, especially since his focus is on using lightweight .38 cal snub nosed type revolvers for Self Defense. He actually prefers the J-frame type revolvers for the Criminal Ambush type of attack scenario that most of us are are likely to encounter in our ordinary living.

I know for me, Deciding, Drawing, Pointing and Pulling the Trigger is probably about all I'd be able to handle in a surprise attack from within 15 ft. (the typical recorded attack profile in the CCTV footage)

His recommendations on Ammo are based on actual field experience, of active duty LEOs and citizens who have survived this type of criminal attacks. He uses dash-cam and surveillance video footage to see how things are most likely to come down if we are actually attacked and need to use our CCW.

He recommended that for our .38 Snubbie revolvers we stick to 135 gr. -158 gr. self defense +P hollowpoints from one of the four major ammo manufacturers because those types of ammo have been proven in the field.

His opinion was that the Speer Gold Dot Hollow-point (GDHP) +P 135 gr. is the standard choice because it has about the longest proven record. However, despite the lack of field data on this round, he did call the new Winchester PDX1 Defender (130gr. +P) 'a viable choice that he would probably carry himself', because the Gold Dot line are very well engineered.

What I took away from his short chapter on self defense ammunition (implied not stated) is 'the stakes are too high in a Self Defense shooting to experiment with unproven gear or ammo.'

With regard to my previous post about the Hornady 110 gr. +P Critical Defense rounds; I believe that I'm going to move up toward the 130 gr. GDHP round. I'll just have to see how much power my old hands can control in my Airweight with those heavier loads.

Based on my last trip to the range, I know that I can put five Hornady 110 gr. +P within the 8 inches circle around my Point of Aim at 20', and 3 out of 5 out to 50'; but the 129 gr +P rounds I had were hit or miss at 20'.

One thing I did learn from Cunningham is that I've been using the wrong double handed grip on my Airweight. I've been using a version of the Semi-Auto grip that dosen't work for good control on my smaller J-frame.

His book walked me through a "Correct" twohanded grip for a J-Frame, and in dry firing drills I see much less front sight movement. (My finger joints don't ache as much afterward, either) Have to see how much difference I get on the range after the grand-kids leave.

So, right now I'm carrying Remington Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point 125gr. .38 spcl +P (SGDHP) as my carry ammo. (Pretty sure I can handle this much round.)

This round is almost the twin to the 125 gr. HP rounds that I have for my .357 carbine; same box design and everything, and on sale the .38 Spcl +P version only costs $0.96 per round.

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M638-3, M36, USCCA Member