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Old 08-02-2013, 04:58 PM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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Default 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"

Went shooting this morning. I'm shooting a 686-4 with a 4" barrel at 25 yards. Indoor range.

Two different loads: 158gr LRN and 158gr LSWC. Both are .358 diameter from Missouri Bullet Co. Both are handloaded with 3.7gr of WIN231.

The attached picture shows that the LRN rounds are roughly level with the X on this target. The LSWC (note the 'neater' holes) are hitting a couple inches lower. Please ignore the left-ish hits - those are my 'normal trigger pull problem'. Also, the circled groups on the right and bottom - I was aiming at the "7's" on the target and aren't (awful) fliers aimed at center.

Question: does anybody have a similar experience? Anybody notice any difference in POA vs. POI between the LRN and LSWC projectiles?

Not sure I would do anything different - not sure I can adjust the sights for 2" at 25 yards.

Note: The head on the target suffered 50 consistent hits from THE MIGHTY BOBCAT (gratuitous photo included) at 7 yards

Thanks in advance for any advice!
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File Type: jpg 20130802_120327.jpg (112.4 KB, 200 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2085.jpg (130.8 KB, 87 views)
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:28 PM
S&WIowegan S&WIowegan is offline
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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Question

No pix of your 686 bullet holes showed up.

Are you shooting .357 Mag brass or .38 Special. Your loads are very wimpy to say the least. If the two bullets have the same BHN rating, I know of no reason for them to shoot different POIs.

Are the groups all two-hand hold standing up or off bags? Single or double action?
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:43 PM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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Can you see the thumbnail-pics? When I scroll over them they get bigger. Let me check that.

It is .38 special brass, Both are Missouri Bullet Co.'s BHN "Brinell" 12. The LRN's come in a box 'cowboy #11', the LSWC's say '.38 match'.

For this test I was using a two hand hold, sitting in a chair, elbows resting on the shooting bench. I shoot .38 special a lot so the hold, trigger pull, etc is only as consistent as I am - (laughing) - the gun and ammo is clearly capable of more accuracy than I am.
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:55 PM
Steve C Steve C is offline
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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Never saw any difference in POI between 158gr LSWC and 158gr LRN. I load the 158gr lead bullets on top of 4.5grs of W231 to duplicate standard velocity factory loads and 4.7 grs for +P with Speer 158gr LSWCHP's.

The difference in POI of your rounds may be due to difference in seating depth if one bullet is longer in length between the crimping groove and the base.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:07 PM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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Good point! The seating depths are different. The LSWC's are seated a little deeper and have more contact surface with the rifling vs the LRN.

Oh well, more curiosity than anything else.

I too load 158gr lead into that range of 4.4-4.5gr of WIN231. I also load at other levels because I take my adult children and some friends shooting who are not avid shooters. That's one of the great things about .38 Special - you can load from mild to wild in one cartridge. 3.7gr is the standard recommended on Hodgdon's website.
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Old 08-03-2013, 04:03 AM
alwslate alwslate is offline
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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A few points; your load of 3.7 grs in 38 brass is a light load and you
are going to get velocity variations of 50-75 fps between shots unless
you elevate the muzzle before each shot to position the powder back
against the primer. For consistant grouping and load testing you must
shoot with your gun on a solid rest. Due to differences in seating depth
your RN and SWC loads will not have the same average velocity. Both
bullets are listed as 158 gr but if you check their weight on a scale you
will almost certainly find that neither actually weighs 158 grs and that
there may be several grs difference in the average weight of the two
different designs.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:45 AM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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In my 686 6", 4.7 231 gives me a +P fps of 890 fps and very accurate with the swc bullet, 4.0grs with the LRN is the minimum that shoots pretty good but other powders do better for me with this bullet, with a light to medium crimp.
You can try light, medium or a heavy crimp with the Lswc bullet and see if your POI might change for the better, never know, every gun is different.
My gun prefers a med/Hvy to heavy crimp for best ES and groups............ Good shooting.
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:13 PM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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Thanks for the good pointers!
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:48 PM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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I shoot both as well, but do prefer the LRN over the SCW 158's. When the SWC are gone, I will stick to the LRN shape. Both shoot POA / POI with just about all of my guns. The reason I like the LRN better is they tend to lead a bit less and I just like the LRN bullet shape better.

The sharper shoulders of the SWC could be catching the forcing cone area or the lands & groves slightly different causing a different POI. Since your gun has adjustable sights, decide which holes you like better and if the SWC's are leading more. Once you settle on a bullet design just dial in your sights.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:56 PM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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3.7 of Win 231 under a 158 lead is indeed wimpy.

I load 4.5!
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:13 PM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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If you get a chance you might try 4.0 Red Dot or 3.7grs of Bullseye in that 686 and see what happens, if you run out of the w 231 powder.

All three powders work in my 686 6" for a maximum target load. Below 800fps is not as good for me for some odd reason.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:20 PM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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M3Stuart: Everything I thought of has been said. I have looked at the photo for quite a while and it appears that neither the rn or swc appear to be cutting "round" holes. It is prob my old eyes!! Are they "tumbling" @ 25 yds? I have run into that with a 3" speed six while the loads shot perfect in the 6" SW 19. Mine cleared up with a little more velocity. Good luck. Be Safe,
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:32 AM
tracybumgarner tracybumgarner is offline
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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My Lee book and the Win. powder website list 3.7 as the MAX grains for 158 gr. lead with W231. Where are you guys getting the load data for these loads of 4.5 grains?

Last edited by tracybumgarner; 09-16-2013 at 09:34 AM. Reason: not enough info
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:53 AM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracybumgarner View Post
My Lee book and the Win. powder website list 3.7 as the MAX grains for 158 gr. lead with W231. Where are you guys getting the load data for these loads of 4.5 grains?
Look at Hodgdon +P data. Until IDPA changed the SSR power factor, we all had to load mild +P. http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:02 AM
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158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4" 158gr LRN vs. 158gr LSWC in 686 4"  
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Quote:
Question: does anybody have a similar experience? Anybody notice any difference in POA vs. POI between the LRN and LSWC projectiles?

No, and I'm skeptical that's what the target shows. Too many variables and not enough shots to say the difference is due to the bullets.

Suggest mixing 3 of each in the cylinder and shooting at least half a box, then looking at the target. That way, you will not know what bullet is being shot, and you have a better chance of holding the gun consistently. Unless the center difference is larger than the group radius, it is of questionable significance.
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