I've heard for many years that firing 357 magnum loads out of short 2" barrel revolver gives only slight more velocity than 38 Special +P loads. Just exactly how much difference is there between 38 Special +P and 357 Magnum when fired from short barreled revolver?

Only comparison I've found in my records is for 125gr JHP bullet fired from 2 1/4" Ruger SP101. According to my chrono records from 1999 the 357 magnum Remington 125gr SJHP gave average of 1,182 fps. In 2009 I shot the Remington 38Special +P 125gr SJHP (Walmart 100 round pack) from the same revolver and it gave average velocity of 878 fps. That's 300 fps increase for the magnum load... more than just "slight".

Anybody else have any real world chrono data they can share?

Been a while now, but IIRC our snub M19's and M66's ran close to 1200fps with the old Federal 357B loads. Much more than any .38+P would have come close to. They could be a handful for some shooters however.

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Run Fast, Bite Hard!

I instructed K frame smith's for years chambered both for the 357 mag and the 38 spl......typically in the magnums we saw a 50-75 fps difference per inch in barrel lngth.....so if you were shooting full throttle mag's in a 4 " and then went to a 2.5, you could expect a 75-150 fps difference as a rule of thumb.....of course this is not engraved in stone....as there a lot of variables....from an instructors standpoint, I can assure you that there is a world of difference in instructing full power 357's in a 2.5 vs 38's in the same bl lngth......and I am talking abt std 38's, not plus P's or +p+'s ( which I have a LOT of experience with) +P+'s came close to low end 357 performance with the +P+ 110 gr loads....the difference is easy to spot on the line.....38's go "bang" - minimal recoil and recoil....full throttle 357's have that super sonic "BOOM", and there is a huge difference in muzzle blast(concussion), recoil and muzzle flash.....especially in low light.
As an instructor one of my biggest challenges was training people to shoot full power magnums in short barrel K frame revolvers, double action, rapid fire.
Over the years I have chrono'ed a lot of 357 and 38 spl loads in bl lngth's from 2" to 10"..the data you have is pretty well representative of what I found also - across the board...and yes, I can load some stout loads into 38 brass with 2400 that I shoot in my 357's and HD's, I would not drop one of those into a 38 spl revolver. As long as you are comparing "apples to apples" the 357 mag will produce significantly more velocity / energy with the same bullet weights in comparable bl length's.

One thing I learned from my father about shooting 357Mag and 44Mag handguns is to wear ear plugs and ear muffs to minimize the sound. For some reason if you don't hear the big boom it doesn't feels as bad.

Back in the day, the comparison was the .357 Magnum in a snub not being much different than the 6 inch K38s carried by LAPD. That, of course, was like comparing apples to oranges, as the .357 would be much better than the 38 in the same barrel length.

I'll bet that somebody got several theories intertwined along the grapevine.

For your database:

My results w/M340-Win..38S+P/125-804f/s, Win..357/125-1179f/s.

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Good shooting.

Anyone who really likes godawful flash and blast is welcome to shoot .357 Magnum from a snubby on my behalf. Regardless of the velocity differential, to me the magnum cartridge isn't something most people would shoot enough from a short barrel to gain real proficiency. I certainly wouldn't have, before I had to give up shooting .357 stuff. It's rowdy enough from a barrel of four inches or longer.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Your numbers are right in the ball park. The folks that use the highly technical term "Slight" usually do not own Chronographs

According to the Buffalo Bore website, and confirmed by at least two members of this board, the BB 158 grain gas checked hollow point swc .38 sp. +p attains a tad more than 1000 fps from a two inch j-frame. It runs around 1100 fps in a three inch j-frame. That is true low-end .357 performance, and makes the little j-frames viable defense guns. I had a 2.5" Model 19. I believe it might be the "sexiest" looking revolver S&W made, but I just couldn't abide the punishment of shooting full-house .357 ammo in it. I'm a wimp, I guess. The two and three inch j-frames with the hot BB ammo aren't nearly as punishing as the .357 short-barrel.

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Georgia On My Mind

Somewhere I think I have about 8 or so 88 gr softnose 357 magnum rounds made by Smith & Wesson, when they made ammo. If you really want to see some awesome flame in a short barrel you should try those. I think they were simply 380 bullets stuck in a 357 Magnum case. IIRC, they were rated at about 2000 fps out of an 8 3/8" barrel.

I don't know why this false rumor about the .357 Magnum generating only slightly more velocity than a .38 Special +P in short barrel revolvers keeps surfacing.

When you start with higher velocities you end up with higher velocities. Sure both will deliver less velocity from a 2" revolver than a 4" or 6" revolver but you can't change the laws of Physics. If you get 1450 fps from a .357 Magnum in a 6" barrel and 950 fps from a .38 Special +P how in the world will the .357 Magnum be close to the .38 Special +P in a 2" barrel? If you lose 20% of the velocity because of the short barrel that would be 1160 fps for the magnum and 760 fps for the .38 Spl +P. (give or take a few FPS) Also, the load that delivers the highest velocity in a long barrel will deliver the highest velocity in the shorter barrel too.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Why are you trying to dis a perfectly good Internet Urban Legend with LOGIC

I'm so sorry I tried to confuse the matter with facts!
I'll try to stop doing that...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I use Speer GoldDot 38spc +P that are designed specifically for Snubbies (aka short barrel revolvers), however, my first round in the cylinder is a 357 magnum full load round (for initial effect & overall pizzazz) !

vfin

I stopped worrying about this particular issue back in the 80's. Lots of chrono testing with the big name loads of the day revealed that 2" - 2 1/2" .357 Magnum snubs were producing velocities in the 1100fps-1200fps range, (with an occasional one nudging higher, sometimes attributed to a "fast" barrel in a particular gun) ... which was still significantly greater than those velocities typically realized with .38 +P's of the day.

Most of these Magnum snubs were 6-shot medium-frame guns, though (K-frames, Pythons, Security/Speed-Sixes), which really helped mitigate the muzzle blast & torque effect during recoil.

Fast-forward to today's wealth of lightweight & ultra lightweight .357's, and the improved ammunition (bullet designs), and I ended up asking myself if the increased amount of disadvantages (muzzle blast & recoil) of the Magnum loads in the itty bitty guns were outweighed by the ballistic advantages ... for me.

I decided to continue using the better +P loads in my M&P 340's ... but all the usual magnum loads in my all-steel Ruger SP101 DAO 2 1/4" snub. Of course, it's also been quad-ported, which introduces considerations in grip positioning & indexing, so I avoid getting any hot gasses, powder or jacket debris directed toward my face. FWIW, it also results in having the gun remain level when shooting full power 125gr Magnum loads. The recoil force still kicks into the palm & web of my hand, but it doesn't torque the gun upwards and whip skyward. A cylinder load of Magnum rounds can be accurately fired as fast as I can function the trigger. Talk about a balanced compromise.

So, the long & short of it is that aside from the occasional "fast" or "slow" barrel (and variable BC gap), the snub Magnums still produce significantly more velocity ... BUT ... that may, or may not, be something desirable from the shooter's perspective, or necessary in order to achieve some degree of expansion along with desired penetration.

Being able to experience a desirable rate of sustained & accurate fire might dictate the use of +P, or even standard pressure loads (including target wadcutters), depending on the gun, shooter & ammo factors.

Maybe the extra velocity of Magnum loads will be good for someone, and maybe not.

Kind of depends on the shooter and the anticipated task(s) envisioned, too.

Dunno the answer for anyone else. For me, though, the M&P 340 I brought along as my LEOSA weapon for my driving trip out-of-state is loaded with +P.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

.38 Snub Vs. .357 Snub

I had a 2.5" Model 19 which I mainly shot with factory 357 mag. I didn't find it hard to shoot at all, and I favored the wood magna/ T-grip combination.
Last weekend, I got a 3" Ruger GP11 fixed sight model. Now, it did come with the big Hogue mongrip, but shooting it with magnums was a breeze. In fact, I did some of my best shooting ever this week. I actually felt like Hickok45 while I nailed the 80 yard plate.
As much as I like the 38spl, I doubt this GP will see much of it.
I have since replaced the mongrip with a Ruger OEM compact GP grip. I will be interested to see if I can repeat the incredible performance I got with the big mongrip.

I have a .357 load using a 180 gr LBT cast bullet over an "adequate" load of H110. I'm not sure what the velocity is out of my 3" M66 but the length of the fireball is 36". Right at dusk it commands attention at the range.

Surprisingly the recoil is not that bad.

Is this a great thread or what! The heavyweights (all Forum buddies of mine) have already weighed in, but Paul Weston, in the '68 Gun Digest, penned a fine article on this subject. The snub Python and 19 were the only snub Mags back then and the 158gr lead Mag ammo (few other loads available)chrono'd some 300-400 fps faster than .38 service ammo in a 2" Colt bbl.

Jeff Cooper was not much in favor of the snub Mag; he always wrote of his 146gr .38 handload in a 6" bbl K frame being faster than a factory Mag 158gr load in 2.5". I believe this is where this 'chestnut' arose.

Safe holiday to all. Don't anybody get burned by the muzzle flash from a snub mag! Or do! Only live once!

The original .38 R-P pre +P loads from 1969-70 with 125 and 158 gr JHP were also barn burners, like your 88gr .357s. Loaded with a heavy charge of slow-burning powder, they performed better in longer bbls. I finished off my 30-year old 'remainders' in a 16" Rossi '92 carbine bbl. Even in that long tube with no cylinder gap, flash and blast were something else.

Actual chronographed results have showed me that shooting Buffalo Bore 38 Specials #20A 158 grain +P (Heavy) LSWCHP-GC will produce around 1040 fps from a 2" barrel and a 158 grain .357 Mag. will do around 1130 - 1150 from the same gun. There is about a 10% difference in MV for the same weight bullet, but there is TRIPLE the muzzle blast, flash, recoil, wear & tear on the gun. Long & short of it is at least for me.......... go with the 38 Special in a 2" barreled revolver and relegate the Magnums for 4" and longer barreled guns. The difference is not worth all the negatives and it's now pretty much acknowledged that the 125 grain 357 Mag's are something to stay away from especially in NON L or N frame Smiths.

Looks like the original question was more than answered but I guess I'll enjoy the pleasure of chiming in and adding my two cents. I own a Smith & Wesson 340PD and a 340 M&P, both with 1-7/8" barrels, 11.4 oz and 13.3 oz weight respectively. I have scoured the internet for real world chrono results and everything I found shows a vast improvement in velocity with the .357 over the .38 +P round.

I have found that a 158 gr .357 out of a 340 averages around 1070 fps while a .38 Special averages around 700 fps, with 800 fps for +P in the same weight.

Make no mistake, the felt recoil is stout, the web of my hand was a bit swollen after 37 rounds of .357 through my 11 ounce 340PD, my hand was red and it was also sore for a couple days, but if I ever have to use that diminutive gun for self defense, I want all the power I can handle. I have read too many stories of determined killers soaking up .38, 9mm, or .45 ACP, somewhere there is a story of a cop who had to shoot a guy 13 times with a .45 to stop him.

Do you all remember the story this spring/summer of the Georgia housewife who had her home broken into, the attacker chased her and her two children, when the wife was cornered, she shot the attacker six times, hitting him FIVE TIMES IN THE FACE. The attacker then had the wherewithall to leave the house under his own power, get in his car, start it, and drive away, he drove some blocks before crashing, was arrested, and died days or weeks later. Shot FIVE TIMES in the face by .38 Special, that doesn't give me a while lot of confidence in the .38 Special.

Stories like that make me shy away from the .38, especially in a FIVE SHOT gun. So anyway, as you now know, the .357 has a substantial velocity advantage even out of the stubby little snub barrel.

As for blast, I never notice it during daylight hours, and I've never shot at night. Noise wise, I've never shot without ear plugs at the range because it is enclosed, but I want to try ONCE when out in the field to hear what it's like from this tiny gun.

Well, that's my two cents...

Hi Mister Smith! So I'm not the only one who believes a J-frame .357 carry gun is for shooting .357 ammo... Careful, you're stepping on a lot of toes here, just not mine.

I've been listening to this argument since the seventies. All the talk of velocities and chronographs are pure nonsense. I did a little testing of my own that should dispel any myths...

The Gun: Ruger LCR 357 magnum.
The Test Medium: A steel oil drum.

Fired from point blank range the .357 penetrated BOTH sides of the barrel like a laser beam. The .38 special +p penetrated ONE side of the barrel and left an insignificant dent in the other side. Several different brand and bullet weights were used. Results were the same across the board.

Conclusion? The .357 is the clear winner in power. Since most defense situations you are likely to encounter are less than ten feet away and less than three shots fired, I think I'll carry the .357 any day. In this particular gun at least, the recoil is a non-issue. Since malfunctions are almost non-existent, I call my revolver "Five for Sure".

Welcome to the Forum. Can never have too many new members! Appreciate your 'like' with your real-world take on .357 power. Just be ready for others to try to refute you, saying that power is wasted on penetration. Not me.

Can you give me the skinny on the LCR in .357? Any ammo restrictions like on the Scandium guns? What mag loads have you tried in it? Are double-taps possible since I know it weighs only 17 oz.? Many thanks!

Kaaskop49

As we are limited to the .38 Special Cartridge, our "maximum loading" is the .38 Special Heavy Duty rounds fired out of Heavy Duty's, Outdoorman, and home-made H.D. and Outdoorsman revolvers. (By home-made, I mean "other" N-frame revolvers remarked and sometimes rebarrelled. The copies are often VERY good.)

However, other stuff is out there as well. After all, if a 28 can become a nice 23, a 19 can certainly become a nice 14 or 15. A 66 could become a 67.

Testing last Saturday with "heavy duty" loads to make IPSC major with a bit of leeway, we were getting our 160 grain bullet up to a nice 1,250 out of the Outdoorsman with one-thumb extraction, and about 1,180 out of the 4 inch Heavy Duty (with one-thumb extraction.)

"Let's test it out of my snubby!" A friend decreed. This snubby would be a 2.5 inch nickled 19 that has become a 15. The load we were testing was using Green Dot powder, which burns rather faster than some of the others. Velocity out of the 2.5 inch barrel was a respectable 1,130 fps -- a 179 power factor. We are not trying for "maximum effort" here, there's no need. That load is already well known being either Elmer's or Skeeter's loadings using 2400 powder.

Safe loads -- although heavy -- from our 2-inch J-frames using the same bullet/different powder charge are up around 950 to 980 fps with rather painful recoil using the small wooden grips. I'd say it's a significant enough difference to be worth it.

All our Heavy Duty loadings have the primers painted red with a permanent marker, and are loaded into red cartridge boxes for rapid visual identification by ourselves while remaining unsuspicious to the "authorities" should we run into one of the notorious Highway Check-stops.

A "Mexican Python". Marked Diamondback. The work is usually very good. Jeff Cooper also said that "silly regulations provoke transparent evasions" and he certainly hit the nail on the head with that comment.

I consider myself somewhat of an expert on the subject of the LCR line. (I have both the .38 and the .357) The magnum model will fire any .38 or .357 round that will fit the chambers. The recoil is far more controllable and easy on the hand than the old Smith 19.

The gun weighs in at exacly 20 oz. loaded with 125 grain. The way I practice with this gun is to find a tree about the width of a man's chest. Back off ten or fifteen feet or so, and blaze away. I can put all five rounds in an area the size of a pie plate every time at ten feet. I have fired an entire box of 125 "full house" magnums one-handed at that tree. I've shot both the 125 federal SJHP and the 110 grain version, and the 158 Semi-Wad Cutters. No issues with pain, blast, or follow up shots. Kudos to Ruger for the best designed close quarters revolver I've ever had the pleasure to shoot. Get one.


Can you give me the skinny on the LCR in .357? Any ammo restrictions like on the Scandium guns? What mag loads have you tried in it? Are double-taps possible since I know it weighs only 17 oz.? Many thanks!

Kaaskop49[/QUOTE]

Good posts Gentlemen. It is fun to discuss such issues as these when we like fine firearms, that are so well represented on this forum, but as some of you have stated above the original question has been asked and answered several times.
To me the bottom line is use what you want as long as YOU can get the hits/accuracy you need, after all a hit with a wadcutter and 2.5 grains of bullseye in a 38 special is better than a miss with a Maximum!!!
If you can hit what you want to at relative speed you will most likely be fine with whatever you choose, just my 2 cents and worth exactly what you paid for em!!!

I love the Diamondback Calmex! Wish I could afford one now.

Well, it's NOT really a Diamondback. It's a Python -- which would be illegal here due to it's caliber -- marked up and registered as a Diamondback. What we'd call a Mexican Python.

No, it's not mine. I wish it was. Here's a better shot of it. But believe me, it's a Python. I saw it "before" and then again "after". There's quite a bit of stuff like this around down here.

Oh the fun of reloading. Faster powders work well in shorter barrels, decreasing blast and recoil over slower powders in factory loads.

I have heard self defense described in naval terms - shoot until the enemy sinks, strikes her colors or catches fire.

If a .357 magnum in a short barrel shoots a 3 foot flame, there's a chance at all three.

I don't shoot many factory loads and my chrono records only show one comparison.

38 spl. 125 gr. Gold dot, 817 fps. out of my 2 1/8" model 60.
.357 125 gr. JHP Federal, 1165 fps. out of the same model 60.

Thanks for the data! A Happy Thanksgiving to you and to all Forum members.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

The Speer data for the "Short Barrel" ammo is taken in a 2" barrel. They use the same 135 grain Gold Dot bullet in both 38 +P and .357 magnum.

.38 +P is 860 FPS .357 Magnum is 990 FPS

Both of these rounds are usually readily obtainable. The nice thing about 38 is that it can be had in 50 rd boxes from LE distributors. The 357 is only available in 20 Rd boxes. I use both with the 38 mainly in J frames and the .357 in my 66's.

calmex;

That 160gr with Green Dot at 950 fps has to be one heck of a load.

I stopped with GD at 822 fps.... since I never found any +P data.

Here's a clip from the Speer website I saved some time ago. Although the Speer GDSB is loaded kind of light compared to others, the rounds do have a good rep in SD use. Just as a side note, while I consider the .38 spl. completely viable for defensive use, there's no question the .357 mag. will put more energy on target. Individual choice as to the trade off in shootability, but that's one thing the GDSB has going for it- it's somewhat reduced loading (compared to top loads) makes it very easy for followup shots. IMHO, of course...

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Ed:

We were using 7.2 grains of Green Dot in .38 Special cases with Lee 160 grain Tumble-lubed SWC's and it was working fine. Then a few of the guys ran into super-sticky extraction problems, and we backed off to 7.0. The 7.2 grain load always worked well in my guns, including my old Heavy Duty. One thumb extraction, which is what we want in our loadings. However, we had some real sticky "pound them suckers out with a rubber mallet" problems in some of the other guys' guns. Was it THEIR reloading techniques? Was it their scales were off? I don't know, but why take chances. I am not afraid of the 7.2 grain load in my guns if I'm reloading it but I kind of shy away from Green Dot loads made by some of the other guys around here. Voodoo, reloading. You know?

We found it an exciting load for the "Super-Snubbies" (remarked .357's registered as .38's) but it does NOT provide the maximum punch from longer barrels. The original Elmer Keith load of a Lyman 358429 (or reasonable facsimile) and 13.5 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special case with a W-W standard primer remains the best load we have for that purpose.

A major plus for firing full house magnums in a short barrel is if the bullet misses the BG the muzzle blast will deafening him and the muzzle flash will set him on fire. So its a win win !

Now that I have grips I with which I can shoot my 640-1, the next thing to deal with is muzzle blast. I have a box of Speer 357 "short barrel" Gold Dot.

From advertising hyperbole, Buffalo Bore touts their 125- and 140-grain TAC 357 ammunition, both Barnes leadless AND JHP versions, as having "midrange" ballistics, little muzzle flash, . . . and less muzzle blast than their competitors' similar products. I have been trying to find this ammunition - ungodly expensive, but if the hype is not hype, it'll be worth its premium - but cannot. Unless I buy a couple of hundred rounds of whatever I might choose, a great choice might become a mistake that I would obsess on for years.

Anyone who has tried these Buffalo Bore selections in a snubnose 357 - is their muzzle blast really less than others? If you find it so, how noticeable is the reduction?

Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip .357 gives about 1200 FPS from a three-inch barrel. I think that's an especially potent round for shorter barreled .357's. I personally want at least a three-inch barrel in a .357.

A detective here studied some shootings with that load. I think this included both 2.5 and four-inch barreled guns. The ctg. was issued by both FBI and Dallas PD for .357 users. He found that the load performed VERY well, and said it seemed almost to be overkill. That's the performance I want.

Those shootings were all of men. But I think the load will work well on most soft skinned animals and probably on alligators, too. Might want more penetration on pigs and bigger bears. Not sure how deeply this 145 ST penetrates on large animals.

I have a catalog from Speer for 2008. Luckily, there full house 125 gr .357 was fired from a snub. They also list the 135 gr .38 +P round. The mag penetrates over 22 inches and only expands to.40 in heavy clothing. The.38 +P short bbl round penetrates 11 and expands to .57 in bare gel and heavy clothing. The fps is 1189 for 125 .357 from snub and 860 for short bbl load. The.357 125 works excellent from a 4 inch bbl. Doesn't expand well from snub. I think you are better off carrying the Speer short bbl load. Better expansion/penetration than full house.357s. So the extra magnum velocity doesn't really help you.

Flopshank tested the Speer .357 and .38+p short bbl loads. The.38 doesn't always expand through 4layer denim permagel but the.357 short bbl does. Therefore I recommend Speer .357 mag 135 gr short bbl load.

YES! Without a doubt the BB TSB .357 125g (and the Barnes tac-xpd 125g) has NO muzzle flash, not just less. I've only shot the Remington UMC SJHP 'full house' loads from the same guns and .... talk about muzzle flash..

I prefer the Barnes TAC-XPD over the Buffalo Bore. Primers are softer, and the 'rated' FPS is 1200 out of a 2" barrel. Higher than a BB TSB. The Barnes kicks a tad bit less than the BB as well.

I'll be verifying the Barnes and BB loads in my 2.5" night guard, 2 1/8" 649, and 1 7/8" 340 M&P hopefully this week of next. I have the chronograph but decided I'd order the blue tooth adapter and inside lighting kit before I started to play with it.... those items arriving today!

Many thanks for the information of this reply. I think, though, you misread part of my reply. One of my main concerns is muzzle blast, muzzle flash being less of a concern. Nowadays, I am rather noise sensitive. The load I presently use is Remington's "FBI Load" +P 38 Special 158-grain LSWC-HP. For now it is my benchmark for muzzle blast.