True stories - this is a little long but it leads up to the question:

Story the 1st -

It's very early in 1980. I'm a new Texan, I've settled in, and it's time to buy my first revolver (I'd say "handgun" but I had two little .25 ACP pistols already). I venture into the only store I actually know at the time, Oshman's in Highland Park Village. A nice, older gentlemen (older at the time; now, probably he would be a peer!) assisted me and I wound up buying a lovely 4" Model 19 (I daresay it was under $200 at the time but I could be wrong). Armed with very little knowledge about certain aspects of shooting, and calibers, at the time, I asked the salesman for just a box of .38s, not .357s. I take my prize home, totally delighted.

That evening, because I'm sure I didn't wait for the weekend, I tried to load the revolver. The ammunition does NOT fit - it's too large for the chamber. I am thoroughly confused but, okay, maybe I'm an idiot, so in the next day or two I meander back over to Oshman's (it was very easy to get to because back then I drove by Oshman's daily [I guess Beretta is in that space now, or close to it]) with the box of cartridges and I tell the salesman my problem. He looks at the box and mutters, "That's .38 Smith & Wesson; I don't know what I was thinking", he takes the box, and hands me a box of .38 Special, and I learn a valuable lesson about calibers, yes? [I recall the conversation and what he said like it was yesterday; same for the next one.]

Okay, end story 1.

Story the 2nd -

It's a few years later, not too many, I have learned some things but I'm no genius in re calibers, and I have also learned how to shop at real gun stores, not just sporting goods stores. I drive across town to a store I heard about to see if I can buy a magazine for my Remington Model 788 rifle, a .308 that I've had for some time and I'd like a second magazine. The nice person behind the counter who helped me was the owner and is a friend of mine presently. I can still picture the store as it was configured back then. Anyway, I told him what I wanted and he said he had one for me and we do this deal and then - here's where I'm fuzzy - I either asked him right there or called him after I got home, to inquire: "The magazine says .243, not .308." He advises, "Don't worry about it, it will work fine, it's the same size ammunition" or words very similar to that (I'm not as clear on the words as I am from Story 1) and, again, I learn a valuable lesson about calibers, yes? The magazine does function perfectly in the Model 788 and I still have it.

Okay, end story 2.

Commence the really fun part.

Story the 3rd -

Last Saturday, in a discussion with this same gentleman at the gun store, albeit several decades later, I tell him that I recently acquired a Smith & Wesson Model 32-1, a cute little J-frame in .38 S&W. Meanwhile, he did me a favor and checked my recently acquired Model 12 to ensure that I didn't crack it. Having accomplished that, and before I left, I told him that I shot that 32-1 using some cowboy action loads that I had in .38 Short Colt, not .38 Smith & Wesson. Then I said I better buy some .38 S&W if he had it, he says he has two boxes left, wadcutters, I'm good with that, and that's what I bought and brought home, in old boxes originally marked $5.97 from some long closed store somewhere, which we discussed for a moment. I did ask if they'd work for self defense if I chose to carry the little 32-1 and Ron says "They'll put a hole in someone", I laugh, end of story.....almost.

So, I bring the ammo home, toss it in my guest room where I keep ammunition, and I don't think about it again until a few days later, when I decide to play with some toys, ammunition, etc. I pick up the "new" .38 caliber ammunition and, obviously for the first time, I focus on the box. Hello? It says .38 Special. I laugh out loud! Okay, these tiny wadcutter rounds DO look a lot like tiny .38 S&W rounds. But, seriously, I ask myself, nearly three and a half decades and LOTS OF KNOWLEDGE later and I did it again, only in reverse? Really made me laugh.

So, y'all enjoy these stories, and then riddle me this - because here's the rest of the story, and my questions:

I went back to the store, we swapped the .38 Special wadcutters for .38 S&W LRN rounds and I remarked about them not fitting into cylinders, telling the shop owner the story above, again. He says, "The bullets are the same size". I shot back, "No, aren't, .38 Smith & Wessons true .38s, point three eighths of an inch, whereas .38 Special are point three five sevenths of an inch, like .357 Magnum? He says no and he's going to show me with calipers. I am with friends so I take out the loaded .38 Special J-frame I am carrying, unload it, and try to get a .38 S&W round into the cylinder. POOF - it goes in easily, with maybe just a touch of a shove. He measures the bullet at its base with the calipers and it's more like .342 and not .38 and he tells me if I couldn't get the .38 S&W rounds into my Model 19 the crimps were thick or the brass was thick or something. He even tells me they'd work if I fired the gun with them in there.

Question for you re-loaders and bullet experts - What's the deal here with bullet size? Why was I so very wrong for thirty plus years?

What are the bullet sizes in re ".38" caliber handguns, and the rest of the common calibers, like .44s, .45s (I know they're not true to those numbers), .380s/9mms, etc. Avoid a rifle discussion please - that's a whole different subject. I added the rifle magazine story just for fun.

I gotta know!!!!

Thanks.

***GRJ***

I'm gonna leave this to the experts, but it should be fun and educational.

Whoever first makes the cartridge gets to name it. Thus the .357 Magnum revolver cartridge and the .357 SIG auto cartridge---which do not use the same bullets, and the cases are entirely different.
Here's a listing you can start on:
Cartridge Specifications

Then there is the .380 which is a true 9mm, and the "9mm Makarov" which isn't.

__________________
Science plus Art

According to Ken Howell's "Custom Cartridges" book, the 38 S&W bullet is 0.361" and the 38 Special bullet is 0.356". But more importantly the mouth of properly sized brass measures 0.3855" and 0.3790" respectively. That is the reason the vast majority of 38 S&Ws will not chamber in a 38 Special chamber. .............. Big Cholla

Funny, I just posted on another thread about how blooming confusing cartridge designations are.

Good stories. Just a couple days ago I got some 7.62 X xxmm mixed up, but I didn't flog myself too bad on account of it. Easy mistake.

BTW The .357 Sig uses a 9mm bullet

Well, Big C, that doesn't match that chart referred to above (which is far too brief a chart and drives me crazy with the .380 and 9mm differences, but I digress) but "vast majority" also implies that there is a minority that will chamber. And I saw that this week.....hmmmm, hold that thought....

Okay, I just ran a quick test:

Model 12 - Remington .38 S&W LRN dropped right in; Buffalo Bore Premium (I guess they're semi-wadcutters) - the bullet fit - the brass would not chamber

Model 64 - both bullets entered the chambers but then the brass was too large although I think I could have forced the Remington into one of the chambers but not all - I didn't try it.

Model 10-7 snubby - the Remington dropped in with a little push; the Buffalo Bore bullet fit the chamber but the brass wouldn't chamber.

Model 10-7 snubby (different gun) - the Remingtons (I tried more than 1 in this gun) felt like I could push them in but I didn't try it - the bullets fit easily but not the brass; the Buffalo Bore bullet fit the chamber but the brass wouldn't chamber.

So, in ALL cases listed (I stopped at 4 guns) the .38 S&W BULLET fit the chamber but the brass either didn't fit easily (except in one case) or not at all. Weird that the LRNs from Remington dropped right into that Model 12, brass and all.

***GRJ***

Okay, one more weird item -

I tried the two types of ammo in my 642 - at the LGS the .38 S&W dropped right in, much to my chagrin - so this time I tried several rounds. Some fit, some did not; the Buffalo Bore ammo always stops on the case. So it's sometimes different for each round! SO WEIRD! But the bullets always chamber; it's the brass that sticks.

***GRJ***

It seems that recently loaded .38 S&W's- especially imported one, like Magtech, are using brass and sizers based upon .38 brass, which will not seal the chamber very well and get lots of unburned powder and gas around the case when used in .38 S&W guns.

It really doesn't hurt too much, other than accuracy and cleanliness. Companies just trying to save a dime.

Try some older .38 S&W rounds, and they will not go into a spec .38 Special chamber. My older boxes of Winchester will certainly not even start into a .38 SPL chamber...but it isn't by a whole lot.

__________________
Lost it all in a boat accident

It all started back with those crazys that shot those round lead balls out of those weapons that used Black Powder !!

With enough patches you could shoot a 36 cal. out of a 50 !!

Those molds got old and sloppy and before you knew it we had bullet of all different sizes and shapes!!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Buy a good reloading manual with bullet, case and chamber
specs and you will become an expert yourself after a bit of
reading. You will even understand why your new .243 mag
works with the .308 round.

I know why the .243 works with the .308 magazine, it's just a necked down .308.

As for re-loading, well, since I don't do that (for a host of reasons, mostly because I don't want to hurt myself or anyone else since I'm VERY unhandy), I'm not sure I want THAT much technical information!

***GRJ***

The Saami website has all of the American standards for each cartridge and chamber.

go to:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...tion/index.cfm

click ANSI/Sammi centerfire pistol and revolver

A big pdf file has all the info

There are also manufacturing tolerances to account for. My S&W 37 will chamber Remington 38 S&W but not Winchester 38 S&W. My 10-6 will chamber neither. I have a US Victory that chambers 38 S&W in half of the charge holes.

The cheap way to get information on pistol cartridges is via Wikipedia (List of handgun cartridges - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). You can find details on dimensions, internal and external ballistics by clicking on most of the entries. A reloading manual, such as Lyman 29th Edition, has all of this information and more, useful even if you don't reload.

Rules? We got no rules! Some of the definitions go back a hundred years or more. Bullets to fit a muzzle loader had to fit inside the rifling, some with a gap made up using paper or cloth patches. Most modern bullets fit the groove size, so that rifling is engraved on the bullet as it passes through the barrel. Some older calibers, like .44, used a skirted bullet, where the bullet was originally the same size as the case, with a smaller skirt inside. The change to a true 0.429" was made so that the lubricant on lead bullets was inside the case, where it can't pick up dirt. 38-40 was a common pistol/carbine cartridge in the 19th century, and is actually .401" in diameter. You find it used today in cowboy events.

In military usage, 45 caliber means the barrel length is 45 times the bore diameter. The venerable 1911 pistol shots a calibre .45 bullet (note the order and spelling), which is actually 0.452".

Bullet size is different than cartridge size and designation. Remember your .38 Special cartridge uses a .357" diameter bullet.

"Bullet size is different than cartridge size and designation. Remember your .38 Special cartridge uses a .357" diameter bullet."

Well, sorta. If you're loading cast bullets, you'll be better off with .358" bullets. Most come that way, either from the bullet companies or out of your mold.

And because neck diameter of 38/.357 is .379", bullets from any loaded 38 S&W should fit any 38 Special chamber, but not necessarily the brass (neck diameter: .3855").

I've loaded 38 S&W with .360" bullets in Lee dies for a Victory M&P. However, they won't chamber in my Mdl 586, Mdl 27, Taurus 82 nor Taurus 85.

They will fit....with some sticking, sort of, maybe....into an older Mdl 10. But it took some shoving, and because of the .360" bullet, I didn't fire them.

And to throw more petrol on the fire , the Brits used a similar cartridge during WWII in Webley revolvers that was basically a .38 S&W with a 200gr bullet.

They called it the .380/200!