Looking for something to feed the fiance's 64-3 4" for home defence duty.

Is the FBI Load 158 gr LSWCHP still the king of the hill or is there something better now?

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Caretaker of a small herd.

Speer gold dot and federal hydroshock are both excellent rounds but the fbi load you mentioned can still get the job done...I keep hydroshocks in my model 19 as a bedside gun

I use the FBI load in four-inch and two-inch revolvers. I don't know if it's "king of the hill", and I'm sure many people will jump in here and say it's not. But it has a forty-year track record of effectiveness, and I trust it.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Another vote for the FBI load. I used it during my 30 yr. LEO career and know it works.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Any favorites as to which brand? I like Buffalo Bore but know the regular ammo companies made it first.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

If you can find it the Remington load was the softest to aid expansion.

A small difference in your favor.

Good Luck

Remington has recently rebranded their FBI load and is marketing it to civilian customers -- but difficult to find right now.

Buffalo Bore has its version 158 grain LSWHC in both standard and +P pressure. From a four inch barrel, I'd opt for the standard pressure; from anything shorter, the +P.

Otherwise, you can shoot Speer's Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain +P or CorBon's DPX 110 grain +P with total confidence.

One more vote for the FBI load. It hits closer to point of aim than the lighter loads in fixed sight guns.

The "FBI" or "Chicago" load has worked for decades. It is comparatively easy on recoil, and in soft lead expands very reliably. In addition most .38 special revolvers with fixed sights (Colt & Smith at least) are sighted for a 158 gr lead bullet. The +P does not seem to matter much in POA/POI.
Not detracting from GD or other newer loads, but the older load is usually cheaper and the difference in actual performance is very minimal if any.

If she is not an experienced shooter, I would try a variety of loads and see which she gets along with best. A solid hit with a 148 gr wadcutter beats a miss with a heavier load, but even the 158 gr +P is not a heavy recoiling load in a 4" K frame.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I'm a little late to the discussion, but the Remington 158 gr. LSWCHP, Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot and the Winchester 130 gr. PDX1 are some of the highest regarded +P loadings in .38 Special. Speaking from personal experience, the one most likely to shoot to point of aim with a K frame is the Remington "FBI" load, but I encourage you to try all three to see if one or more of them that "work" well for your wife.

I can also tell you that while felt recoil is subjective, I've always found that the FBI load is a "peach" to shoot from a full sized service revolver like your M64. The recommendation to use standard wadcutters is also not bad advice in the slightest if it turns out she's sensitive to recoil.

It appears to be a slight change from the original, which has been marketed to civilians for decades and not actually used by the FBI for quite a long time.

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Oh well, what the hell.

What are the changes?

I'm surprisd not to see more posts advocating use of the various lightweight JHP whizbang loads that are all the rage these days. I thought for sure the original post would ignite a big argument about the merits of those vs the old-fashioned FBI load.

Out of a 4" barrel your options are expanded a bit.
Speer 135 g. SB
FBI load
Remington Golden Saber performs well out of a 4" barrel.

I haven't researched it to be sure, but I think I recall reading in a post here that the cases are unplated brass instead of plated, and there may be a slight change in the bullet configuration. I hope if they altered the bullet that it tests as being more effective--the old style is a thoroughly time-tested design.

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Oh well, what the hell.

I bought two boxes of the "HTP" line FBI load(the new version, not the old one) a few months back, and the cases are nickel plated.

And, just to pile on here, I like the "FBI Load" and the Speer 135gr +P gold dot.

OK. I'll do it.

I have a box of Federal brand FBI loads stashed in my bedroom, however, I have Glaser Safety Slugs in every caliber I own. I gave my daughter a m 37 loaded with Glasers. It is a fairly light bullet and therefore has mild recoil. I , of course have no first hand experience with it, up understand the Royal Hong Kong Police (when they were around) issued it to their anti drug detail. Mas Ayoob gave it a good write up years ago.

The FBI 158 +P lead hollow point is always, I think, a good choice but it turns an airweight revolver, a J-frame especially, into a nasty little bit*h for practice. My ears tell me that the CCI/Speer +P 135 Gold Dot hollow point has a decent record. It still stings a bit in an airweight, but less so. In a mid-weight K-frame, I'd choose the FBI load.

True about the FBI load in an Airweight. In an all-steel J-frame it's much more comfortable.

But since the OP asked specifically about loads for a four-inch M64, it's not a problem. As has been noted, there's a greater variety suitable for K-frames, but I still like old tried-and-true.

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Oh well, what the hell.

I'm new to the .38 special world. I just acquired a J-frame M36 with a 2" barrel. Would the "FBI" loads everyone is talking about be a good defensive carry round for this gun as well - provided I can handle the recoil?

If she is not a shooter, I would give her factory target wadcutters.

Yes; one of the nice things about the FBI load is that it tends to expand well out of snubbies.

This guy makes a pretty compelling case for the Remington 38+P 125 Gr SJHP

AT2 - .38 Special - Remington UMC 125 Gr +P SJHP - YouTube

So does this guy:

Remington 38+P 125gr SJHP Ballistic Gel Test - YouTube

On critters up to and including deer, the 158 grain lead SWC +P load is outstanding. Either in factory guise or in handloaded equivalent, I won't consider anything else.

Great! How can I identify it at the ammo counter? I don't suppose it says "FBI Load" on the box. What specifically do I ask for? Remington 158 grain +P 38 special? Any other specifications I need to reference when purchasing?

Sorry for being so ignorant, but I'm still learning. I don't know what some of the acronyms like "SJHP" or "HTP" or "LSWCHP" used by some of the posters in this thread mean...

The FBI Load is the LSWCHP. Lead Semi Wad Cutter Hollow Point.

SJHP = Semi Jacketed Hollow Point

HTP is I think just a brand name of Remington's for a line of it's pistol ammo.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

No need to apologize -- we're all still learning here.

The load is called Remington High Terminal Performance Ammunition 38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead Hollow, product #22301.

"SJHP" means "semi-jacketed hollow point"; HTP is "high terminal performance"; LSWHP is "lead semi-wadcutter hollow point", sometimes "hollow core".

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

From a 4" barrel this Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P LSWCHP .38 Special will give you just about .357 Magnum performance (1165 ft/sec) without all the drawbacks of the flash, noise, kick, and muzzle blast. IMHO it's about the best you can get for a 38 Special.

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

When the M10 and M36 were the main carry handguns by law enforcement the FBI Load was the common carry ammo. It was so common because it performed well in both and was street tested in both.

I do like all the new bullets that have been developed for the .38 Special because they do work well but I could be just as happy if I only had the original FBI Load. I do carry the FBI Load in my M36 but more often I carry the Speer 135gr short barrel +P load in my S&W M442. It all comes down to which is most accurate in the revolver I'm carrying at the time.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Here's a picture of a recent Remington "HTP" FBI load box

Attached Images

IMG_0534.jpg (54.5 KB, 180 views)

Great info guys. So the LSWCHP is a completely un-jacketed flat nosed hollow point. And that is better as a defensive round than a semi-jacketed hollow point? No lack-of-penetration issues with the soft lead bullet?

Cool. Are those plated brass casings? Re-loadable?

Actually the lead bullet penetrates nicely. Less drag than a brass jacketed bullet. May mean slightly less "gnarly" wounding inside but they make up for it with consistent expansion and nice mushrooming. Do a search on YouTube for guys testing these types of bullets. The tests get monotonous as they each result in nicely mushroomed 158gr lumps of lead.

The other nice benefit of the LSWCHP is IF (and I say IF because they have a reputation for expanding well) they don't expand it's still a Semi Wad Cutter and will likely bore a nice clean .355-357 hole straight through who/whatever you shoot. Lots of crushed and cut tissue damage with bleeding unlike round nosed bullets that tend to just push tissue aside as it goes through.
Nickel plated. Reload just like any other US made cartridge.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

No one said the FBI load is better or worse, it's just time tested and proven. We are talking about 50 year old technology that still works and it won't cost you almost $2/round.

I know it's hard to believe but back in history there was nothing but lead bullets and somehow people were able to stop the bad guys. Now I would never recommend the LRN bullet in the .38 Special because it just didn't work. It has the nickname of "the widow maker" and with good reason. The LSWC/HP bullet is a much better performer.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

LRN = Lead Round Nosed?

A little reading between the lines has me thinking that calling it "the widow maker" wasn't a reference to its ability to take out the bad guys?

Correct on both counts. The lead round nose bullet as a self-defense or law enforcement round was a dismal failure!

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

While the 158gr LSWCHP is a solid choice bullet technology has developed in the last years and I would not write off the Speer Gold Dot and Hornady Critical Defence loads. They are tailored to perform in a 2" but work just as well in a 4"

Thanks got posting that. As a long-time user of the FBI load I found that reassuring. To my less-than-efficient old eyes the cavity looks as if it could be a tiny bit wider, but if so it's very little. Looks as if it still would work very well indeed.

I'm by no means writing off the Gold Dot Short Barrel load. If it's good enough to be approved by NYPD it should be quite effective. The problem is finding it.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Buffalo Bore has two +P loadings in the 158 Lead for the 38 special, with a 2" barrel.
I would think the 20A at 1040 fps was designed for the revolvers with a K frame or heavier...........

the 20c load at 850 fps being for the lighter J frame. (Note) both use a gas check to minimize leading.

Federal, Winchester and Remington all have made the "FBI Load" with the Remington getting most of the use in snub nose revolvers due to the softer lead bullets used.

There are several "Bonded" new style ammo loads now, that will do a good job........ if they will be accurate in your guns and shoot close to POA.

Most K frames will shot 99% of ammo well, it is just a matter of finding a box of ammo that hits where you are aiming or has a recoil that you feel comfortable with...............
and today, if you can find it.

Good shooting.

Well Ed, there's a thread in the CC forum stating that Buffalo Bore does not "keep exemplars" of each lot produced, making them the same as reloads in the eyes of those who fear theoretical court reprisal.

I've got the Remington brand FBI Load in my nightstand Combat Masterpiece.

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Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

I use a .38 + P load of a 140 gr. Sierra HP going about 1000ft/sec. I prefer Gold Dot bullets but haven't been able to find any. I load these in my .357 because I want to keep our hearing (musicians) and not fire .357 rounds in the house. I think they are perfectly adequate for close quarters.

Speer doesn't recommend 158 gr bullets for .38 because they don't stabilize. I know when shooting out of a 2" barrel they don't. You've got a 4" barrel that has to be better. If I load low-end .357 rounds instead I'll use a 158 gr bullet.
I don't know if being unstable really affects a bullets terminal performance. I really can't see a bad guy gasping, "That bullet wasn't stable" before he buys it.

I vote for the FBI load also. The Remington S12 or the Winchester SPD load are the correct loads. Winchester is the original.

The original "FBI Load" from 1933 is still not too shabby. Try Buffalo Bore 20H/20, which is a Keith 158 grain Hard Cast Semi-Wadcutter at 1,150 fps (the real 38/44 load). This is the load the FBI adopted in its Colt Police Positive revolvers in 1933.

I have a partial box of this load, and have been looking for more for a year or so now. I have not seen any locally in that time. About the only 38/357 Gold Dots I've been able to find anywhere are the 125 and 158gr loads in 357 Magnum(I did stock up on 125s when I found them at the gun show for $20/box).

About this time last year, SGAmmo had the 38 special short barrels in Law Enforcement boxes(50 rounds rather than 20 for the consumer boxes) for a really low prices-I think around $30. I'm still kicking myself for not buying a few.

Could you clarify for me, please? I've never heard that about the +P 158gr. LSWCHP from a two-inch barrel.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Supposedly one of the greatest features that it always work well out of snubnoses. Lord knows there's about a zillion videos on YouTube about that round being shot through snubnoses.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

I think the old velocity standard was 980 fps.

Well, I think I have a choice, at least for now.

I have three boxes of Buffalo Bore non +P short barrel flash suppressed 158gr LSWCHP's. I intended it for our snubs and didn't think too much of it out of the 4" K frame until I noticed on BB's site they list it at 980fps or so out of a 4".
She can shoot regular 158gr ammo well so this isn't much harder recoiling. It's in "+P" territory when coming out of the 4" tube. I also have it. The flash suppressed powder is also a plus.
If I can ever find any of their more hotly loaded stuff and/or the Remington or Winchester version of the LSWCHP +P I will pick it up. Right now I can't locate any.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

The "original" Remington Express catalog # for the FBI Load is R38S12

Remington recently changed the FBI load from the Express labeled stuff to their HTP line of ammo and it is catalog #RTP38S12.