Ran across two boxes of Peters 158 gr .38 Special ammo that both appear to be high velocity 38/44 but have different cartridge index numbers . . . one is marked 3842 with the head stamp 38 SPL HV . . . the other is marked 3844 but only 38 SPL on the head stamp. Can anyone tell me more about the approximate age of each and any ballistic difference between them.

Here is what I believe is the older of the two:








Here is the “newer” of the two:








Thanks for your help,

Russ

I can't tell you the age, but the "index 3844" ammo is what I call the classic 38/44 ammo. I have shot this ammo and it runs right around 1100 fps if it has been well kept out of a Heavy Duty.

I have only seen "index 3844" ammo in the box like your upper picture of the "3842". I would be interested if you shoot any of it to run it over a chrono and see how it did. Do it in an N frame or a 357 magnum though and be watching for squibs.

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The box with the Kings Mills address is pre WWII and with the HV headstamp the shells should be correct for that box (boxes sometimes get re-filled with the wrong shells). The red ball Peters box is 1960's era, made in the Bridgeport factory, not the original plant in Kings Mills. The difference in stock number could be due to a lot of things, change in specifications, factory, etc. The shells should have the RP over 38SPL headstamp. I do not know if any from this era would have had the HV headstamp, I have not had any in my own collection from that era with it.

The later box only has the basic safety warning about using the ammo "only in firearms originally chambered for this cartridge". It does not specify that it should only be used in certain models and many of the guns the factories were worried about in the 1930's (Police Positive, older M&P models, etc.) were still likely to be in use in the 1960's. Perhaps the stock number change may reflect a change in the loading specs.

Thank you both for very informative replies.

As pointed out by desi2358 the 60s vintage Red Ball Peters ammo does not have the restricted firearms use warning . . . and it does have the R-P over 38SPL headstamp. Based on that, I have to assume it is not the High Velocity loading of the pre-WWII 3842 box. How ironic though that the index number of the 60s vintage ammo happens to be "3844".

Even though I'd love to chrono both loads I probably won't since both are full boxes. I'll stick with using my Remington Dogbone ammo that is clearly marked 38-44 for exhibits and photos.

Thanks again,

Russ

Russ:
I have the index 3844 in a pre-war box and it is the Rustless variation, plain-Jane 158 grain load. I think the 3844 is a coincidence and was not given to it with the super speed 38 special in mind.
A postwar Peters ammo catalog lists the following load velocities:

3844- 158 gr Lead - 855 fps muzzle
3842- 158 gr Lead - 1085 fps muzzle (HV load)

FWIW people, I have the remainder of a box of the later version Peters .38-44 given to me years ago by a cop who was 'cheating' after standard velocity .38 service ammo had failed him. Headstamp was a simple R-P and .38 SPL HV. Hot stuff! No longer have the box. There was also a more modern version of the .38-44 with a double cannelure and a RNL bullet, no doubt diluted as were many other +Ps.

Anybody who loves revolvers should at least once have the opportunity to fire a Heavy Duty; the DA is smooth beyond words.

That's the truth. I am fortunate enough to own a pre-war and it's one of my favorites.

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Slightly off topic but I was looking at an old Colt manual the other day and they list the Police Positive Special and the Detective Special as being 38/44 capable. Also the FBI used the 38/44 Special round in their Colt Police Positive Specials when they issued them back in the 30's. If you want to verify this look on the Dusty Roads FBI historical website. They list their issue 38 load as 1125 fps velocity or there abouts.

Several years back someone posted a scan of a S&W circular for a particular J frame which listed all the 38 Special ammo it would shoot. The 38/44 was listed and caused a minor skirmish on this board as I recall.
Ed

Thank you for not shooting your collectible ammunition!

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Russ:

My guess, and that is exactly what it is worth: Without shooting it over a chronograph, my vote goes to the wording on the label. Thus, "Index 3844" is, until otherwise run over a chronograph, what it says it is on the label, the "police service load."

The police service load terminology was typically applied to the standard 38 S&W Special load, not to the 38/44 S&W Special load. I think the "index number" or catalog number is a coincidence. Sort of like how a "Glock 22" is not a .22 LR, but a .40 S&W. Obviously, if you decide to shoot those vintage loads, I would love to see the comparison on a chronograph.

Personally, I would not, but then again, I have tested pre-war large primer .357 Magnum ammo (the real stuff, you know, 158 at 1,510 fps), and the checkering of the magna stocks really did not feel all that pleasant, although the 8 3/8 inch barrel did help in recoil management.

As to another post, I have never seen any S&W ad for a J frame that said it was approved for 38/44 ammo. The ad that floats around is the 2 inch M&P revolver. It did say specifically that 38/44 could be used.

The ad inserts from Evaluator's Ltd. said the same thing about the Combat Masterpiece, i.e. that a limited amount of 38/44 could be used.

Those statements are still correct. In limited numbers, 38/44 is ok and will not cause any sort of catastrophic failure. It will only accelerate wear.

Period Colt catalogs, such as the one I have for 1933, the year the FBI adopted the Police Positive Special in 38 Special caliber, certified the Police Positive Special, the Detective Special and the Official Police for 38/44 ammo. That caliber was, according to internal FBI memo I have in my files, adopted over the .45 ACP on the condition that the ammo used would be 38/44 ammo with the Keith sharp-shoulder semi-wadcutter. Not a bad choice or horrible reasoning, I suppose, given the rather unsophisticated knowledge of terminal ballistics in 1933 and given the fact that bullet choices were pretty much limited to full metal jacket in the autos or lead round nose in revolvers. The aforementioned FBI memo even mentions the fact that the Keith type bullet specified to be loaded in their ammo was a "relatively recent development," which tells me that the committee, in consultation with the military experts that assisted, were on top of the then-current developments in ammo.

I have not seen a .38-44 round in person, but in my reading I thought it could be identified by it having a large primer as opposed to the small primer used in regular .38 Special Ammo.

Many thanks for the knowledgeable input . . . I believe we are all in agreement.


Here are pictures of two brands of the true 38-44 Hi-Velocity rounds. The headstamps are clearly marked REM-UMC 38-44 SPL on the Remington dogbone brand and PETERS HV on the Peters brand. Both appear to be standard small pistol primers.








Thanks again for all the education, questions & comments,

Russ

Thanks for posting the pictures of the head stamps. I had not seen any before.

Hopefully this is a better zoom in on the ammo.

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Thank you Peter . . . much better.

Russ

Interesting in that this was in my box of index 3844 ammo. This is the reason I consider it normal 38/44 Ammo since that is the head stamp on it. Nice stuff 150 grn and it would clock between 1050 and 1125 if I remember right.

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