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  #101  
Old 09-21-2014, 07:03 PM
LtBlue425 LtBlue425 is offline
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Originally Posted by STCM(SW) View Post
So, what am I to take of this?
A 135 gr Hornday critical defense is not as good?
Or a 147 gr FP Berry's is also not good enough to stop a BG?
Man, I'm confused on this 9mm thing...
It should not be so confusing but if you cut through the nonsense and egos it clears up. Listen to the sources closest to the actual shootings or investigation but they are usually drowned out by the din from the KoolAid Klan. I'll give you some direction.
1. FMJ or any non-expanding bullet = BAD NEWS.

2. The more tissue destruction the better. An FMJ penetrating 18" does not count.

3. Don't discount good ammo (with a good track record) because it's not currently fashionable. Good examples are Silvertip, Federal Nyclad, Federal 9BPLE, HydraShok.

4. Handguns need every fps of velocity they can get. Less velocity the shakier the odds of expansion. This generally means lighter bullets over heavier ones.

5. Don't become fascinated with heavy bullets that'll plow through windshields and sheet metal. Unless you are making multiple vehicle stops a day contacting unknown persons or being dispatched by 911 to calls with a high probability of a barricaded subject, you don't really need a bullet with the requirements of law enforcement. Fine if you have them but not an ironclad requirement.

6. Use multiple sources of information. No one source is the end-all or the "Last Word" in exterior ballistics. Don't listen to the hate and vile from people who are defending their favorite guru. Cops have access to records of actual shootings because of professional courtesy (verified, of course). This drives some people insane with jealousy that they don't have that privilege.

7. Also be aware that exalted gurus whose opinions are vehemently defended on the internet, do change their positions on topics as time goes on. Where does that leave the true believers if the guru is a moving target???? Case in point: I've got Fackler recorded on tape admitting he used to have a firm stand on a topic but did a 180 change years later.


A firearms examiner from a very large West Coast agency told me that he and other examiners were noticing failure to expands with Golden Sabre 147gr. This examiner carried 124 gr Golden Sabre in his 9mm. What's the diff....velocity!

Personally I carry Corbon DPX in 9mm, 380 and 40 (personal weapon) because I've been impressed with its performance.
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  #102  
Old 10-09-2014, 12:12 PM
G-ManBart G-ManBart is offline
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Originally Posted by DR505 View Post
Every time I go through Firearms Instructor Recertification, or any time I'm at Quantico actually, I stop by the BRF and see what is the latest. They have some interesting things going on...one of the most recent was the initial purchase, training, and issuance of 7.62 x 54 rifles (La Rue OBR) for our Indian Country agents. If any of you LE folks are ever in the neighborhood, swing by and have a visit.
I have had a number of friends that work at BRF over the years, and they really do some cool stuff. I'm 100% convinced that they're doing everything possible to come up with the best ammo possible. The big change seems to have been that ability to now compare street results, over time, with testing results. That has narrowed the gap between testing, and real-world shootings significantly.

Since we're talking about the 9mm 147gr Bonded Winchester ammo, I'm aware of more than a couple of shootings with it, and it has done extremely well. I don't carry a 9, but I would be happy with that ammo (I have done some testing with it) in any gun that liked it.

Those rifles were actually 7.62x51 (.308 Win)....the x54 is a Russian round.

I think we actually know one another....I used to be in NM :-)
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  #103  
Old 10-20-2014, 07:46 PM
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He generally recommended the authorized option (personal weapon, approved) of a G21. (Dunno if the 30 is approved; didn't think to ask.) The .45ACP is a lot easier to shoot. He had a Glock in .40, and it was not adequately reliable IMHO. It malfed a few times, as their reputation has been (a friend's agency is dealing with that now; several have been hit with crummy performance from their .40s). I suspect Glock will give them one heck of a deal, probably trading one for one on pistols and mags. The gear would not change, of course.
Gear? As in holster's, mag carriers, etc.?

I'm not doubting what you have relayed as second hand knowledge. Maybe you and/or the source of information do not have experience with Glock pistols? The 22 and 21 are actually very different pistols beyond caliber, dimensions and capacity. Quality holsters and mag carriers can't be shared between the two models. They share very few parts between them.

Overall, I'd have to say the 22 and 21 have equal reliability reports with LEA's and there are probably at least five times the numbers of .40 Glocks used by them as .45 ACP Glocks - within the last 30 years.
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  #104  
Old 10-20-2014, 11:09 PM
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I've enjoyed reading this thread. You'd never know who's bullet is "better" would erupt into such a spirited discussion.
Hey 505, I did my LEO time as a "dedicated local" but I was privileged to work around some of your counterparts from the Denver office, particularly during my airport assignment. Great group of fellas over there. Joel and Nick, in particular, were great, great people to have "in the house" during 9/11 and its aftermath. Lots of us owe them a lot.
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  #105  
Old 10-30-2014, 09:36 PM
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I'm new to pistols, so what I'm asking may seem boring or ignorant to some, but maybe it will help others like me.
A frangible projectile, (to my limited knowledge) is one that upon hitting its target, splinters in to several pieces. And a JHP spreads or mushrooms upon impact but does not splinter.
I've also read, "IF" I were to use a frangible round in an altercation, it could very well hurt my case in court, Due to it's damaging properties.
If this is true, why would police be ordering these? Seeing as I would be frowned upon if I used them. Is there a double standard here?
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  #106  
Old 10-30-2014, 10:58 PM
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I'm new to pistols, so what I'm asking may seem boring or ignorant to some, but maybe it will help others like me.
A frangible projectile, (to my limited knowledge) is one that upon hitting its target, splinters in to several pieces. And a JHP spreads or mushrooms upon impact but does not splinter.
I've also read, "IF" I were to use a frangible round in an altercation, it could very well hurt my case in court, Due to it's damaging properties.
If this is true, why would police be ordering these? Seeing as I would be frowned upon if I used them. Is there a double standard here?
First off, welcome to the forum.

Frangible projectiles are intended for training (i.e. practice) and are designed to disintegrate on impact with a hard surface; this is meant to eliminate the possibility of ricochets. Frangible rounds were never intended for an anti-personnel role, therefore it stands to reason that a quality JHP round is a wiser choice for self-defense than the former.

I hope this helps.
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  #107  
Old 10-30-2014, 11:24 PM
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I must have frangible mistaken with another type of projectile.
Seems I read an article or watched a video about a splintering or fragmenting type of ammo that was specifically designed to inflect more damage. I think it was called a Talon or Black Talon. It was recently introduced as personal protection ammo. Within the past year or so I believe.
Maybe I read too much into the article.
Thanks for the reply " CoMF" !

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  #108  
Old 10-31-2014, 01:22 AM
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Every so often someone brings out a new design of bullet for the defense market. Fragmenting bullets are one of the basic designs. Generic advice is to stay away from them.

The Black Talon was not a "novelty" bullet. It was the marketing that made it seem exotic and caused the uproar among the antis and soccer moms. It didn't go away, just the black color. It was introduced in the late 80's or into the 90's best I recall. Good ammo.
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  #109  
Old 10-31-2014, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by kakarote9130 View Post
I must have frangible mistaken with another type of projectile.
Seems I read an article or watched a video about a splintering or fragmenting type of ammo that was specifically designed to inflect more damage. I think it was called a Talon or Black Talon. It was recently introduced as personal protection ammo. Within the past year or so I believe.
Maybe I read too much into the article.
Thanks for the reply " CoMF" !
No problem.

Surprisingly, fragmenting bullets aren't that new of a concept. To the best of my knowledge, Glaser and Magsafe were the pioneers of that field. Their offerings used a pre-scored, hollow jacket filled with birdshot that was suspended in epoxy. Their wounding potential is severely limited by their tendency to underpenetrate, never reaching vital organs deep inside the torso.

It's a bit of a long, dry read, but I highly recommend checking out SA Urey Patrick's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness." I think you'll find it very enlightening.

Last edited by CoMF; 10-31-2014 at 01:42 AM. Reason: Corrected some misspellings.
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  #110  
Old 10-31-2014, 12:54 PM
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Forgot about Glaser, it's been so long since I've heard the name. IIRC it's primary selling point was greatly reducing ricochets but also alluded its massive (but shallow) wound made it a good defense round.

I think the maker was hoping it'd catch on with the police market but it never really took off. With the ever present concern of civil liability for stray or over-penetrating shots, I can see the where they thought they had the LE market. I never bought any as I could only envision very limited circumstances for its use, i.e. dispatching an injured animal on a hard surface.
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  #111  
Old 10-31-2014, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post
I have had a number of friends that work at BRF over the years, and they really do some cool stuff. I'm 100% convinced that they're doing everything possible to come up with the best ammo possible. The big change seems to have been that ability to now compare street results, over time, with testing results. That has narrowed the gap between testing, and real-world shootings significantly.

Since we're talking about the 9mm 147gr Bonded Winchester ammo, I'm aware of more than a couple of shootings with it, and it has done extremely well. I don't carry a 9, but I would be happy with that ammo (I have done some testing with it) in any gun that liked it.

Those rifles were actually 7.62x51 (.308 Win)....the x54 is a Russian round.

I think we actually know one another....I used to be in NM :-)
Of course I know you!

And you are right about the 7.62...mistype on my part!
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  #112  
Old 10-31-2014, 09:24 PM
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This thread is a good example why I joined this Forum.
Need an answer, just ask it here.
Thanks Guys!
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  #113  
Old 11-01-2014, 04:03 PM
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Gear? As in holster's, mag carriers, etc.?

I'm not doubting what you have relayed as second hand knowledge. Maybe you and/or the source of information do not have experience with Glock pistols? The 22 and 21 are actually very different pistols beyond caliber, dimensions and capacity. Quality holsters and mag carriers can't be shared between the two models. They share very few parts between them.

Overall, I'd have to say the 22 and 21 have equal reliability reports with LEA's and there are probably at least five times the numbers of .40 Glocks used by them as .45 ACP Glocks - within the last 30 years.
*
I meant the gear for the 9s (17/19) and 40s (22/23). I am well aware that the 21 is a significantly different platform.

The serious problems with the 22/23 platform and malfunctions that cannot be resolved or even diagnosed as to cause (various combinations of mag springs and followers, recoil springs, etc seem to either work, or not work, with no consistency or logic) have been well known for years. This is even more true with mounted lights, which are less and less optional as we learn more. There was a string on the old 10-8 forums from late 2007 or so that went heavily into the issues. It has been discussed in some detail on lightfighter, along with the problems created in the 9s by trying to make the 40s work. I actually saw that FBI agent running a .40, and it was not adequately reliable. If I was going to carry a .40, I have little doubt that the first choice would be the M&P.
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  #114  
Old 11-01-2014, 04:07 PM
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I decided to make a separate reply on the FBI's work on this issue: FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division - Soldier Systems Daily. According to a very credible nationally known (in LE/firearms circles), this is legit. I've pasted it in, but the formatting is a bit messed up.

Remember that any who expects a fight they can't avoid and is not taking a rifle is not very smart. All pistol rounds suck.

"FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division
This has been making its way around the Internet and we thought it was worth sharing.

May 6, 2014

FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades
Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore
Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best
In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident
Handgun stopping power is simply a myth
The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)
LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers
Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization. Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.” Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago.

Caliber, when considered alone, brings about a unique set of factors to consider such as magazine capacity for a given weapon size, ammunition availability, felt recoil, weight and cost. What is rarely discussed, but most relevant to the caliber debate is what projectile is being considered for use and its terminal performance potential.

One should never debate on a gun make or caliber alone. The projectile is what wounds and ultimately this is where the debate/discussion should focus. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 AUTO) there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing law enforcement officers and in each of these three calibers there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for law enforcement officers during a shooting incident. The choice of a service projectile must undergo intense scrutiny and scientific evaluation in order to select the best available option.

Understanding Handgun Caliber Terminal Ballistic Realities

Many so?called “studies” have been performed and many analyses of statistical data have been undertaken regarding this issue. Studies simply involving shooting deaths are irrelevant since the goal of law enforcement is to stop a threat during a deadly force encounter as quickly as possible. Whether or not death occurs is of no consequence as long as the threat of death or serious injury to law enforcement personnel and innocent third parties is eliminated.

“The concept of immediate incapacitation is the only goal of any law enforcement shooting and is the underlying rationale for decisions regarding weapons, ammunition, calibers and training.”1

Studies of “stopping power” are irrelevant because no one has ever been able to define how much power, force, or kinetic energy, in and of itself, is required to effectively stop a violent and determined adversary quickly, and even the largest of handgun calibers are not capable of delivering such force. Handgun stopping power is simply a myth. Studies of so?called “one shot stops” being used as a tool to define the effectiveness of one handgun cartridge, as opposed to another, are irrelevant due to the inability to account for psychological influences and due to the lack of reporting specific shot placement. In short, extensive studies have been done over the years to “prove” a certain cartridge is better than another by using grossly flawed methodology and or bias as a precursor to manipulating statistics. In order to have a meaningful understanding of handgun terminal ballistics, one must only deal with facts that are not in dispute within the medical community, i.e. medical realities, and those which are also generally accepted within law enforcement, i.e. tactical realities.

Medical Realities

Shots to the Central Nervous System (CNS) at the level of the cervical spine (neck) or above, are the only means to reliably cause immediate incapacitation. In this case, any of the calibers commonly used in law enforcement, regardless of expansion, would suffice for obvious reasons. Other than shots to the CNS, the most reliable means for affecting rapid incapacitation is by placing shots to large vital organs thus causing rapid blood loss. Simply stated, shot placement is the most critical component to achieving either method of incapacitation.

Wounding factors between rifle and handgun projectiles differ greatly due to the dramatic differences in velocity, which will be discussed in more detail herein. The wounding factors, in order of importance, are as follows:

A. Penetration:

A projectile must penetrate deeply enough into the body to reach the large vital organs, namely heart, lungs, aorta, vena cava and to a lesser extent liver and spleen, in order to cause rapid blood loss. It has long been established by expert medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that this equates to a range of penetration of 12?18 inches, depending on the size of the individual and the angle of the bullet path (e.g., through arm, shoulder, etc.). With modern properly designed, expanding handgun bullets, this objective is realized, albeit more consistently with some law enforcement projectiles than others. 1 Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness: Firearms Training Unit, Ballistic Research Facility, 1989.

B. Permanent Cavity:

The extent to which a projectile expands determines the diameter of the permanent cavity which, simply put, is that tissue which is in direct contact with the projectile and is therefore destroyed. Coupled with the distance of the path of the projectile (penetration), the total permanent cavity is realized. Due to the elastic nature of most human tissue and the low velocity of handgun projectiles relative to rifle projectiles, it has long been established by medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that the damage along a wound path visible at autopsy or during surgery cannot be distinguished between the common handgun calibers used in law enforcement. That is to say an operating room surgeon or Medical Examiner cannot distinguish the difference between wounds caused by .35 to .45 caliber projectiles.

C. Temporary Cavity:

The temporary cavity is caused by tissue being stretched away from the permanent cavity. If the temporary cavity is produced rapidly enough in elastic tissues, the tensile strength of the tissue can be exceeded resulting in tearing of the tissue. This effect is seen with very high velocity projectiles such as in rifle calibers, but is not seen with handgun calibers. For the temporary cavity of most handgun projectiles to have an effect on wounding, the velocity of the projectile needs to exceed roughly 2,000 fps. At the lower velocities of handgun rounds, the temporary cavity is not produced with sufficient velocity to have any wounding effect; therefore any difference in temporary cavity noted between handgun calibers is irrelevant. “In order to cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly.”2 2 DiMaio, V.J.M.: Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Company, New York, NY, 1987, page 42.

D. Fragmentation:

Fragmentation can be defined as “projectile pieces or secondary fragments of bone which are impelled outward from the permanent cavity and may sever muscle tissues, blood vessels, etc., apart from the permanent cavity”3. Fragmentation does not reliably occur in soft tissue handgun wounds due to the low velocities of handgun bullets. When fragmentation does occur, fragments are usually found within one centimeter (.39”) of the permanent cavity.4 Due to the fact that most modern premium law enforcement ammunition now commonly uses bonded projectiles (copper jacket bonded to lead core), the likelihood of fragmentation is very low. For these reasons, wounding effects secondary to any handgun caliber bullet fragmentation are considered inconsequential. 3 Fackler, M.L., Malinowski, J.A.: “The Wound Profile: A Visual Method for Quantifying Gunshot Wound Components”, Journal of Trauma 25: 522?529, 1958. 4 Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness: Firearms Training Unit, Ballistic Research Facility, 1989.

Psychology

Any discussion of stopping armed adversaries with a handgun has to include the psychological state of the adversary. Psychological factors are probably the most important relative to achieving rapid incapacitation from a gunshot wound to the torso.5 First and foremost, the psychological effects of being shot can never be counted on to stop an individual from continuing conscious voluntary action. Those who do stop commonly do so because they decide to, not because they have to. The effects of pain are often delayed due to survival patterns secondary to “fight or flight” reactions within the body, drug/alcohol influences and in the case of extreme anger or aggression, pain can simply be ignored. Those subjects who decide to stop immediately after being shot in the torso do so commonly because they know they have been shot and are afraid of injury or death, regardless of caliber, velocity, or bullet design. It should also be noted that psychological factors can be a leading cause of incapacitation failures and as such, proper shot placement, adequate penetration, and multiple shots on target cannot be over emphasized. 5 Ibid.

Tactical Realities

Shot placement is paramount and law enforcement officers on average strike an adversary with only 20 – 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. Given the reality that shot placement is paramount (and difficult to achieve given the myriad of variables present in a deadly force encounter) in obtaining effective incapacitation, the caliber used must maximize the likelihood of hitting vital organs. Typical law enforcement shootings result in only one or two solid torso hits on the adversary. This requires that any projectile which strikes the torso has as high a probability as possible of penetrating deeply enough to disrupt a vital organ.

The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other. To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols. The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.

CONCLUSION

While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance.

Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile.

Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel."
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  #115  
Old 11-23-2014, 07:24 PM
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Anyone else catching word that FBI has selected the round and it's Speer Gold Dot's new 147 grain "G2" design? It's a Gold Dot with a gel/polymer filling like Hornady's Critical Defense/Duty.
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  #116  
Old 11-23-2014, 08:17 PM
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My college professor was a former ICE supervisor agent. In class one day, he said FBI stood for Forever Butting In. He said it with a laugh and a smile, so I'm pretty sure he was just teasing them a bit.
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  #117  
Old 11-28-2014, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Philadelphia Patriot View Post
My college professor was a former ICE supervisor agent. In class one day, he said FBI stood for Forever Butting In. He said it with a laugh and a smile, so I'm pretty sure he was just teasing them a bit.
I thought it was Forever Bothering Italians....at least back in the pizza connection days...
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  #118  
Old 11-15-2015, 11:09 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug M. View Post
Actually, Mike, my recollection is that what NYPD called a "phase 3" is not the same as a "type 3" (double feed). I won't swear to it. It's kind of odd, in that the only place this seems to have been a documented problem with G19 was with NYPD, and they had a hell of a time with it. Glock had to bring a mobile facility to the range to work on the pistols and they went through several efforts at repairing it. My old Gen 2 17, and my 19L worked up by Don Ellis have never done such as I recall.

Pat Rogers has described the experience and the events around it a few times. He's a member here but I almost never see him show up.
Here is an article by a retired NYPD Lieutenant about the Phase Three malfunction:

The Gun Zone -- Glock Phase 3 Malfunctions
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  #119  
Old 11-16-2015, 12:31 AM
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PR24 PR24 is offline
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Originally Posted by John P. View Post
It seems that the FBI has come full circle. I remember in the early 1990's they carried the Winchester subsonic 9mm. It was a 147 grain JHP at 950 FPS. Most agencies, including mine, went with this round, but over a few years most dropped it due to poor performance. Most agencies went with lighter and faster 9mm ammo. We went with the RA9TA the 127 +P+ Ranger SXT and we are very happy with it.
No lie! The ubiquitous Win 147 that was intended for suppressed weapons & not a primary duty round. My agency was issuing 147g GDHP's in the late 90's. We had some very bad performance from them in OIS's especially from the Glock 26's. So we went to the 124g GDHP & never looked back. More than a few felons have been planted by that round.

I really don't understand the logic used by the FBI? The 147gr 9x19 is a very 'disproven' street round by SO many agencies. Why pray tell makes them think it's so great now?
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  #120  
Old 11-16-2015, 02:26 PM
V0OBWxZS16 V0OBWxZS16 is offline
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Originally Posted by PR24 View Post
No lie! The ubiquitous Win 147 that was intended for suppressed weapons & not a primary duty round. My agency was issuing 147g GDHP's in the late 90's. We had some very bad performance from them in OIS's especially from the Glock 26's. So we went to the 124g GDHP & never looked back. More than a few felons have been planted by that round.

I really don't understand the logic used by the FBI? The 147gr 9x19 is a very 'disproven' street round by SO many agencies. Why pray tell makes them think it's so great now?
When you way that you "had some very bad performance" do you mean that the bullets failed or the bad guy didn't go down?

The logic is that bullet construction is variable within each weight class and therefore it's not possible to disprove a bullet weight. Only particular loads can be proven or disproven.
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  #121  
Old 11-16-2015, 05:53 PM
CoMF CoMF is offline
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Originally Posted by PR24 View Post
The 147gr 9x19 is a very 'disproven' street round by SO many agencies.
I respectfully disagree. Just citing one example, my understanding is that the Ranger-T 147 gr. JHP has had a rather commendable "street record" from all of the agencies using it. Not surprisingly, you'll find it on DocGKR's "list," as well.

These new 147 gr. loads aren't your father's Olin Super Match. Bullet technology has come a long way since the Miami shootout.
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