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Old 02-03-2014, 09:24 PM
adktim adktim is offline
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What ammunition do the US Air Marshals use?
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:31 PM
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Don't know for sure, but it probably is some type of frangible ammo.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:43 PM
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They've been carrying SIG pistols (can't remember which model) in 357SIG for quite a few years now, the ammo is standard production Speer Gold Dot.
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:34 PM
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Apparently the notion of explosive decompression sucking someone out a porthole or through a bullet hole is overdone a bit on TV. The plane are engineered to fly with a few holes in them.
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:51 PM
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If I told ya, I'd hafta... well, you know the rest. ;-)
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:53 PM
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Wasn't an Air Marshall, but when I flew armed it was with standard .40 180 grain HST.
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:54 PM
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That new close range frag ammo that's been posted as new ammo here.
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WC145 View Post
They've been carrying SIG pistols (can't remember which model) in 357SIG for quite a few years now, the ammo is standard production Speer Gold Dot.
They carry a SIG 250C--
Mine came with BOTH barrels--

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Old 02-04-2014, 04:00 AM
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I wouldn't say that airplanes are designed to fly with a few holes however the airplane is basically one air leak because of all of the joints and the cabin pressurization system just pumps in more air than can leak out
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:28 AM
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Thanks all. And I promise, cross my hart. Not to tell any one else.
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:51 AM
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cant go wrong with a sig
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:56 AM
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I heard the first 2 bullets are coated with radio active material, so if (God forbid) they have to shoot and the flight crashes,, the authorities will be able to find the "evil doers'".
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roarindan View Post
I heard the first 2 bullets are coated with radio active material, so if (God forbid) they have to shoot and the flight crashes,, the authorities will be able to find the "evil doers'".
Seriously? You're teasing, right?
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:15 AM
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Are there still Air Marshall's?
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:27 AM
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A few holes in an airplane fuselage would mean nothing, and even if the airplane somehow completely lost cabin pressure, it would stay flying and no one would die.
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Old 02-04-2014, 02:15 PM
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Now there's a thought for mythbusters.

Put everyone in parachutes and oxygen gear (just in case), and take a pressurized airplane up to 30,000 feet or so, and then take a 12 gauge and blow a hole in the wall. Better yet, blow out a window.

See if anyone gets sucked out.
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  #17  
Old 02-04-2014, 02:27 PM
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They carry Speer/CCI 125 grain Gold Dots in .357 Sig...
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  #18  
Old 02-04-2014, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roarindan View Post
I heard the first 2 bullets are coated with radio active material, so if (God forbid) they have to shoot and the flight crashes,, the authorities will be able to find the "evil doers'".
Um, that would be a 'no'. Any radioactive anything which is strong enough for that would cause radiation sickness and death.
-edit- I didn't get that you were probably joking.

Transport aircraft are equipped with equipment that will enable them to be found, and 'evil doers' will be easy to track down; they are the ones with .40cal bullet holes in them

Bullets don't do much.

A US Airways pilot shot his aircraft by accident a few years ago, no fuss no muss.

These things are pressurized to over 8psi, and the engines pump vast amount of air into the cabin, so much so that there are huge valves that vent out the excess.

A <.4 inch hole has absolutely zero effect.

During the smoking days, loose rivets were usually detected by "smoking rivets" not because the rivets were smoking, but because leaky rivets left brown streaks of nicotine and tar!

Airplanes, even pressurized ones, are full of holes.
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Old 02-04-2014, 04:45 PM
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They do carry the Speer Gold Dot 125 grain JHP in .357Sig. I am pretty sure that they are not carrying the 250, but of their traditional DA/SA models. I do not recall, but I think it's a 229. One of the guys I met at an EAG class a few years ago is a FAM, and he swapped a .40 barrel into his issue gun so he could shoot more cheaply since he had to use his own ammo.
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Old 02-04-2014, 05:05 PM
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I was flying first class last year and was the first to board. There was a young man already seated a few rows back and I figured he was a marshal.
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:08 AM
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Several years ago I went through the "LEO Flying Armed" class. No need for any special ammo, holes in the fuselage were not an issue, the pressurizing system would compensate for them and, as has been noted, planes are pretty leaky already.

The three things they emphasized were:
a. ********************************************************
b. ********************************************************
c. ********************************************************
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Last edited by WC145; 02-12-2014 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Edited for Mike, even though the info posted was not secret, not tactical, common sense, and readily available elsewhere.
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Old 02-05-2014, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpo View Post
Now there's a thought for mythbusters.

Put everyone in parachutes and oxygen gear (just in case), and take a pressurized airplane up to 30,000 feet or so, and then take a 12 gauge and blow a hole in the wall. Better yet, blow out a window.

See if anyone gets sucked out.

I'm pretty sure "Mythbusters " did this one.
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Old 02-05-2014, 09:04 PM
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Several years ago, I talked to a friend of mine who was with the FBI and worked with Air Marshalls. He told me they carried P226's in 357 Sig. As do a number of Texas Rangers.
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Old 02-06-2014, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcxplant View Post
......During the smoking days, loose rivets were usually detected by "smoking rivets" not because the rivets were smoking, but because leaky rivets left brown streaks of nicotine and tar!.....
The "smoking rivet" effect is caused by the rivet being loose in the hole and working away at the aluminum skin. Tar & nicotine may cause cancer in humans but they have nothing to do with smoking rivets on airplanes.
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcxplant View Post
These things are pressurized to over 8psi, and the engines pump vast amount of air into the cabin, so much so that there are huge valves that vent out the excess.

A <.4 inch hole has absolutely zero effect.
Exactly. I recall reading on a seemingly authoritative airline site a while back that a 747 can maintain cabin pressure with 3 entire windows missing. (Wouldn't want to be sitting next to one of those missing windows, though!)
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:58 PM
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You might have some problems, as a civilian, with some frangible ammunition made of tungsten particles. Although it is definitely not "armor piercing," some states, like Illinois, defines it as such because tungsten is much harder than lead or copper.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:18 PM
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A lot of the explosive decompression myth regarding shooting a hole in the fuselage of an airplane at altitude came from the old James Bond 007 movie "Goldfinger."

I have some experience in Air Marshal armament, but it's very dated - over 10 years ago. I don't know their current practices.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren Sear View Post
A few holes in an airplane fuselage would mean nothing, and even if the airplane somehow completely lost cabin pressure, it would stay flying and no one would die.
It's not the holes that are the problems with the aircraft falling out of the sky. It's the bullets hitting the hydraulics and electronics that control the aircraft that, when damaged, could cause the aircraft to fall out of the sky.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:11 PM
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While flying on the C9-A Nightingale in the early seventies carried sub nose S&W 38 with three rounds bean bag plastic nose and three rounds hollow point. You figure out the first three out the pipe.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:31 PM
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Fellow LEOs...

Please think twice about the information you are discussing on a Public Forum.
Remember the paperwork you signed when you went through the FAA class.
Although we are friendly on this forum we have no idea where the information ends up.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Grasso View Post
Fellow LEOs...

Please think twice about the information you are discussing on a Public Forum.
Remember the paperwork you signed when you went through the FAA class.
Although we are friendly on this forum we have no idea where the information ends up.
In no way am I being a smart ***, so please dont take this the wrong way, but why does it matter if an LEO tells what kind of gun and ammo he/she is carrying? Is there certain types of agencies where its a "secret"? I see FBI/secret service where its a mystery...
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:26 PM
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>In no way am I being a smart ***, so please dont take this the wrong way, but why does it matter if an LEO tells what kind of gun and ammo he/she is carrying? Is there certain types of agencies where its a "secret"? I see FBI/secret service where its a mystery..<

"They" tell you that everything is an operational secret and they pinky swear all non-members to secrecy before revealing anything. Having been "burned" many years in the past for talking about stuff that I truly thought was benign, I don't talk about the stuff I see and hear, either.
I won't even comment on what I think of the policy!
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod150 View Post
The "smoking rivet" effect is caused by the rivet being loose in the hole and working away at the aluminum skin. Tar & nicotine may cause cancer in humans but they have nothing to do with smoking rivets on airplanes.
That's true. The one place where you will find evidence of nicotine is on the outflow valve of the pressurization system. A&P school taught me that

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Old 02-11-2014, 10:51 PM
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Since when is the type of pistol or ammo paid for by taxpayers and carried by a civilian employee* of the government a "state secret?"

Last I heard, such information not only MAY be disclosed, it MUST be disclosed upon request under the "sunshine" or "freedom of information" type laws.

*Agents of the FBI, DEA, ATF, Air Mrashals, Secret Service, and all of the other federal, state and local law enforcement agencies are CIVILIANS (unless of course, a particular agent happens to actually be on active duty in the military).
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:52 PM
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Shawn, that varies from state to state and the feds are not near as open with info as many states are. I work in WA, which is generally considered 2nd only to Florida in terms of the broad nature of public records law and access to records. Ammo choice is no secret here, although the AAGs doing state agency records are often confused by the request. It would not surprise me if that info is not lawfully available, even if well known, with regard to some agencies in some states or the federal government.

However, what Mike was talking about is the "flying armed" class, which may well NOT be subject to disclosure and could in fact be restricted info, categorized as FOUO or more restrictively.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
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However, what Mike was talking about is the "flying armed" class, which may well NOT be subject to disclosure and could in fact be restricted info, categorized as FOUO or more restrictively.
Exactly. The type of ammunition is mildly interesting. The tactics and characteristics of those tactics are FOUO. I was reminding the LEO of his faux pas.

Mike

PS - To answer the numerous PMs about right to know, citizens right and such. There is a reason for TS/SCI, not every piece of information is known to the general public, even officers/agents are SCI'd. But that aside, equipment is one arguable point but the tactics to keep people and LEOs alive are not. Thank You for understanding.

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Old 02-12-2014, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn mccarver View Post
Since when is the type of pistol or ammo paid for by taxpayers and carried by a civilian employee* of the government a "state secret?"

Last I heard, such information not only MAY be disclosed, it MUST be disclosed upon request under the "sunshine" or "freedom of information" type laws.
Shawn, You said it yourself. "disclosed upon request" in following the rules/regulations regarding request for disclosure, the request must be in writing and follow proper channels to gain requested information. What we think is "public knowledge" or "public right to know" is all good... but proper channels must be followed.

I have worked jobs before where most information was public knowledge, catch was, part of the employee manual said we as employees were not allowed to discuss, confirm or deny the information.
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max View Post
I was flying first class last year and was the first to board. There was a young man already seated a few rows back and I figured he was a marshal.
My son is a federal agent (won't mention the agency but not air marshal) who flies armed and also boards first.
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:35 AM
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Which is a bad protocol, in that it allows a reasonably observant offender to discern the presence or lack of an armed LEO.
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Old 02-20-2014, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Grasso View Post
......The tactics and characteristics of those tactics are FOUO. I was reminding the LEO of his faux pas. .... There is a reason for TS/SCI, not every piece of information is known to the general public, even officers/agents are SCI'd.......
What do FOUO, TS, & SCI/SCI'd mean?
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:17 PM
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FOUO: For Official Use Only.
TS: Top Secret.
SCI: Secure Compartmentalized Information (I think; not sure on that one).

Different categories of sensitive information and the manner in which they can be used/distributed. One must have both the clearance to have some information, and also the need - hence SCI.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Grasso View Post
Fellow LEOs...

Please think twice about the information you are discussing on a Public Forum.
Remember the paperwork you signed when you went through the FAA class.
Although we are friendly on this forum we have no idea where the information ends up.
I agree, since 9/11 the world as we know it has changed. I've been retired for about 8 years, but was working when 9/11 occured. I was with a state LE agency, and quickly called our director in the state capitol city. He said get my bag ready, with 3 days worth of BDU's and wait. Nothing else happened to cause us to report in, but when I asked him later what were we to do after 3 days, he said clothing was not a problem. Being a state employee, the Governor was at top of chain of command. The governor also being commander in chief of the state National Guard, clothing was not a problem.
I flew about 6 years after 9/11, and although I was flying unarmed, I observed a couple of "persons of interest" while boarding. The Captain came through and I asked for a minute of his time. I explained that I was a LEO ( even displayed some cerdentials to him) and that I was unarmed, but if anything came up during the flight, that he could depend on me for what ever. He thanked me and took note of my seat number from my ticket. It was an uneventful flight, thankfully.
Just my two cents worth...

Last edited by Marshal Sam Holland; 02-20-2014 at 04:01 PM. Reason: left out something
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:15 PM
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KEN L KEN L is offline
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Are there still Air Marshall's?
Of course there are. Liam Neeson just played one in a movie! Geez man, aren't you paying attention?
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:21 PM
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Of course there are. Liam Neeson just played one in a movie! Geez man, aren't you paying attention?
So there are still Jedi also. (dammit didn't pay attention to the thread date, sorry about that.)

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Old 01-09-2017, 06:46 PM
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Potassium-40 in the human body is easily detectable. If someone added a radioactive element to bullets it would not have to be dangerous to be detectable. It's not a particularly good idea to "tag" the bad guys if a plane crashes, their pieces would be so scattered that they won't be identifiable.
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Old 01-09-2017, 07:12 PM
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Fellow LEOs...

Please think twice about the information you are discussing on a Public Forum.
Remember the paperwork you signed when you went through the FAA class.
Although we are friendly on this forum we have no idea where the information ends up.
The TSA has said that gun and ammo info was not SSI (Sensitive Security Information) ..

Sig Sauer's decision to publicize its contract. "The information in the Sig Sauer press release is based on publicly available information ! And if you look on the web you will find that the TSA released is own manual .. So nothing talked about here is sensitive !!
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