Looking to satisfy some curiousity here.

I know .357 is a product of the 30's but have read that functioning hollowpoints were only around starting in the 80's mainly. I know SuperVel was around from the 60's.

What bullets were used in the "old days"? Round nosed lead? SWC's? Those old conical metal piercing bullets? Just curious what the knowledgeable lawman or gun guy would have put in his .357 long before I was born.

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Caretaker of a small herd.

158gr lead with some type of lube.

I think they were originally loaded with a 158gr LSWC. I don't recall ever seeing it loaded with a round nose like the 38 spl was.

Did they have any issues with pushing lead ammo that fast?

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Caretaker of a small herd.

Primarily SWC and Metal Point/Matal Capped RN style bullets.

That is correct. The early Remington ammunition catalogs list both lead and metal-capped (metal point) 158 grain bullets @1510 ft/sec. I believe metal-capped bullets had just the nose covered. The bearing surface on the bore was lead. Western also listed a 158 grain metal piercing bullet and a 158 grain Luballoy Coated bullet, which was a FMJ.

Anybody know where I can see pictures of some of this old stuff?

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Caretaker of a small herd.

I agree, I'm not saying a 158 gr. round nose was never made for the .357 but I've never seen one.

For general use today a hard cast 158-180 gr. is a pretty good load for the .357, especially for "woods carry".

The earlier .357 lead bullet cartridges I have seen all had the SWC bullet shape. I have not seen one with a round nose, but that does not mean that they weren't made. The bullets were deeply seated, with the "shelf" of the SWC bullet seated flush with the case mouth. The Remington catalog listing simply says "lead" for the bullet.

I think the originals were semi-wadcutter. Metal piercing were more like a pointed tip round.

I'm not sure what bullets preceded the 125 grain JHP for defensive purposes, but it was probably the 158 grain previously described.

However, the famous "man stopper" is the 125 grain JHP.

Back in the 1960's, big bore fans asserted that .45 ACP 230 grain ball ammo would achieve 95% one shot stops. Subsequent research has shown that 230grain FMJ .45 ACP loads actually provide about 60-64% one shot stops and several smaller calibers using expanding bullets are more effective stoppers. The most effective of all self-defense handgun cartridges is the medium bore .357 Magnum with a 125 grain JHP bullet, which provides 93-97% stops. Those numbers are supported by a huge data base and several different researchers, working independently, have discovered essentially the same thing.

From an interesting read: Handgun Stopping Power

Just ignore that bit about the 45 ball ammo being less than a 100% fight stopper. Blasphemy I say!!

Remington produced a 158gr JSP load which, for quite a while, was the only one of its kind. Winch's lead SWC had a much sharper shoulder than that of Rem. The Winch load was coated with a gold-colored copper wash, I believe it was called. Rem also produced a 158gr jacketed metal piercing load, but a poster on another thread said claims of metal piercing were too optimistic.

It took Norma to break the mold of the above loads by introducing their 158gr Magnum load; can't recall if JHP or JSP. Norma showed initiative by producing interesting .38 loads and the first .45ACP JHP.

There are different kinds of lead, and lube.

The major factories, especially back then, were notorius for using whatever "wrong" combination of lead and lube - and they often leaded the barrels pretty bad. So bad, that even today, some folks still believe lead bullets are bad and mess up your barrel.

Well, I don't know that the major factories have stopped doing that.

But there are some smaller companies that do it right. And some individuals as well.

I'm still learning, but the folks who know what they are doing, don't have problems with leading their barrels.

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

Handloads were popular in some places, and apparently worked well.

There are books, articles, and forums discussing how it was done and how to do it now. Look for articles by the gun writers of the 1950's through the 1970's.

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

In the early 70's I vaguely recall what was referred to as a SJHP. That was what most wheel gunners carried on duty. I do recall that we qualified with .38 Special wadcutter and practiced mostly with the SWC ending with a cylinder or two of our .357 carry round. Department furnished the practice stuff and the officer had to buy his own duty loads.

hardcase60

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You want me to do what?

The copper washed Winchester loads were called "Luballoy" and were pretty much a copy of their .22 lr high speed loads. Alas, the name was wishful thinking. 6 rounds and you couldn't see your rifling.

The metal piercing rounds were as described earlier, pointed metal cap on a lead bullet.

The Remington 158 SPs were loaded hot. I expect they were intended more as a hunting rounds than self defense.

Super Vel did indeed start the light bullet/high speed era in the mid-late 1960s. A friend got some of the first 125 gr JHP component bullets out (1970-71) and an ink-still-wet load data sheet (Hercules, now Alliant). They did expand, but very shortly Hercules came out with revised (downward, way downward) load data. Not really an issue, I'd looked at the data and decided that sticking the same powder charge I used in a .44 Magnum in a .357 case was not going to happen

BTW, lead hollowpoints were around even in the 1930s. There were even some interesting molds where you could cast your hollowpoint nose out of soft lead. This was then inserted into another mold that cast the bore riding body of the bullet out of much harder alloy while retaining the soft lead nose. But, you didn't see any of these from factories.

Exactly what "Lubaloy" means is open to interpretation. Western got a patent in the early 1920s for a copper-zinc-tin alloy suitable for bullet jackets. Its main advantage was that it did not cause metal fouling of bores when bullets were fired at high velocity. Prior to that, jackets were made of cupro-nickel, and sometimes caused metal fouling in bores. Usually, Lubaloy bullet jackets were also given a copper wash for a better appearance. However, lead bullets which were given a copper wash were also called Lubaloy - so I guess the term was applied to any non-fouling bullets.

I have a 1930s era box of Western .38 Special ammunition, labeled as Lubaloy. Those bullets are definitely FMJ, not copper washed unjacketed lead.

Western's metal piercing bullets were of the capped type, using a heavy metal conical cap over a lead core. The bore riding surface was lead. It was the heavy metal (Lubaloy??) conical cap combined with the higher .357 velocity which enhanced its metal-penetrating performance. Remington's metal piercing bullets were different, as they were made from a hard zinc alloy.

Were copper-washed lead bullets used in loading .357 ammunition? I frankly don't know.

Having been given lots of old '60's era .357 mag ammo, mostly R-P, do recall the short, stubby ogive and shoulder seated below case mouth. The 158 gr. LSWC was about it except for the 'metal piercing' option for a long time.
A quick thumbnail check on the SWC's would tell you they were soft, almost surely swaged.
And yes, a few cylinders-full of them would turn your barrel into a smoothbore with the lead left behind. You were in for a long and aggravating cleaning session.
One thing from the old days that I don't miss.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

You know you're old when you here the word "Lewis" and the first thing coming to mind is Lewis Lead Remover. I learned that bronze wool was faster yet for getting lead out. Nonetheless, before then I spent a week, yes a WEEK, cleaning lead out of a barrel and off a cylinder face once. Several hours every night. The face of the cylinder looked like the skin of an orange!! Simply awful.

I just posted this pic on another thread:

Says metal point conical bullets on the back

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My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

You can get some modern stuff like they used : https://www.underwoodammo.com/357-ma...-hollow-point/

Regards, Porkie

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Least expected, you’re elected

These bullets were loaded in 38 Special and 45 ACP as well. I sectioned a pulled metal piercing 357 bullet. It is essentially just a soft lead core with a thin metal jacket. Nothing exceptional.

Well Remington had them-- I had a box for years and fired them one day when I was out of the proper ammo for a 8" Python-- I won't tell you how long it took to get that bore clean--

I remember seeing some with the 158 grain lead round nose bullet. Mid to late 50s, I believe

I got into Law Enforcement in 1977. Most guys that carried a .357 had some kind of LSWC. There were a few JHP but they were expense and didn't expand unless fired into concrete. The JHP bullet was simply a FMJ with a HP bored into it. There were Super Vels but they were really expensive. I bought one box for my 1911 .45, I used'm as long as I could then went to a 200 gr LSWC. I just didn't have the income to afford more. BTW, lead in the barrel was no problem. You covered the forcing cone with one finger, poured mercury in the barrel, covered the muzzle end of the barrel with another finger and tilted it back and forth a few times. A cloth patch pushed all the lead out and you could use that mercury over and over. There were guys carrying .38s, I only remember the LRN being used in them. The guys with 9 mm all carried the RNFMJ. I was carrying a M28 in my first gunfight. I loaded my own ammo because I knew the factory stuff wasn't the best. I found a Sierra Bullet, I think it was, that had a 3/4 jacket, with a very soft SWCHP front end. It worked very well. In the late '80s we were discouraged from carrying our own loads but there was some JHP ammo available by then. From '77 until '91 I provided my gun, ammo and leather gear. We then got the low bid gun, leather and ammo. Some departments issued better stuff and many didn't. Until the late 80s at least 50% of the guys carried a shotgun, their own, with buckshot, whatever was on sale.

"I was carrying a M28 in my first gunfight. I loaded my own ammo because I knew the factory stuff wasn't the best. I found a Sierra Bullet, I think it was, that had a 3/4 jacket, with a very soft SWCHP front end. It worked very well."

Those were the Speer bullets... .357s came in 146 grain HP and 160 soft point, .41s in 200 HP and 220 SP and .44s in a 225 HP and 240 SP.

If one is looking for commercial loads that were available "back then", just find a SHOOTERS BIBLE of the era you are looking for. They have a list of all that was available and many pictures.

Bob

I do believe you are right Bob. It's has been awhile. I shot a bad guy through the meaty part of his upper right arm when he pointed his gun at me. My round pushed a half dollar size hole through his arm and left meat hanging out the back. I liked it a lot.

Did the original .357 Cartridge have a large primer pocket ?

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

That metal penetrating round wasn't bad. We used to go out to any junkyard (back when we had junkyards) and shoot old cars and freezers with them. . .used 38 specials which was all we had. The penetration was really impressive. They were kind of like a baby high-powered rifle hard ball load. They have been outlawed since I don't know when. Over 20 years ago my friends at ATF told me they had been illegal for a long time. That's back when they were all worried about the Teflon bullets.

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Dr. B

I have shot those bullets into test traps of both water and wood and they are very interesting. The bullets don't "expand"...the nose kinda "melts" off and this little copper jacketed ashcan just keeps going... I once shot a BBQ propane tank using a 8 3/8" 57. The first load was a 255 Cast Performance hard cast that was going in the 1400s...it put a big dent in the bottle. A 200 HP backed by 23 grains of H110 punched a hole in the tank and dented the backside...

Was visiting Allan Jones who was the editor of their reloading manual and an old friend from Dallas in 2003. He showed me the machine that line of bullets had been made on since the 1960s. He said the machine was not going to last much longer and when it could no longer be repaired the line was going to be dropped...and sure enough a few years later they were gone...I miss that bullet...

Bob

I wasn't in LE and never had to use those 146 gr Speers in anger, but from an old 3-screw Blackhawk with 11/2 power scope they were AWSOME on coyotes and the bigger heavier "coy-dogs" we had to help get rid of around the farms and small town dumps west of Indianapolis. If I could buy them now I might start hand loading again.

Soft , swaged lead, semi-wadcutter, 158 grain , with a thin coating of dry lube .
They would lead the bore in no time. Too many fps and too soft an alloy, that gave the first 357 magnums a bad reputation.
Hard cast , gas checked and deeper lube grooves helped. Jacketed bullets cured the leading problem.

Later Super-Vel came out with those neat jacketed hollow points and we haven't looked back .
Gary

I'm no Leo, but my most accurate load was the Speer 140gr jhp. Pin point accuracy out to small rocks on the berm at 100yds. Python 6" barrel.

Wasn't the s&w ammo in 357mag, 125gr jhp 1597 f p s? Rated at?

Back in the 70s and 80s, LE administrators were absolutely terrified of SJHP loads. Those were the days of the antis braying about dum-dum bullets. On one job, we were restricted to 158 grain lead bullets in .38 Special. Obviously, they expected us to use RNL. I just never told anyone, but the FBI/Chicago LHP load I used was a 158 grain lead bullet...

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Back in the 80's & early 90's, prior to the advent of the semi-automatics, I carried a Smith & Wesson Model 686 4 inch. One of the most effective anti-personnel rounds at the time the the Federal Cartridge Corporation 125 grain jacketed hollow point. I believe that Federal may have loaded the Sierra 125 grain jacketed hollow cavity. I have no scientific evidence, but recall articles in LE periodicals that, with proper placement, this was a very effective fight stopper. It came with a cost however. There was tremendous blast and, with sustained use, flame-cutting to the top strap just above the forcing cone. No such thing as a free lunch.

I carried this cartridge for many years. Fortunately I never had to employ this on two-legged animals, only those with four. We got, and still get, many calls to euthanize deer. Very rarely did I ever have to shoot a deer more than once.

Nothing scientific here, just my observations. I never felt out-gunned with this weapon/cartridge combination. I still have boxes of this ammunition and shoot it occasionally. With practice there is no problem shooting quickly and accurately.

jm2c.

Joe

..you should have come to Texas...they didn't care what we shot people with as long as it got the job done...

My wife was a Border Patrol Agent in the mid-80's. While she carried .38 Special Treasury loads in her older Security-Six, you could get a box of .357s if you wanted. She got a box to try and it was Federal 158 grain JSP. We both tried them in her Ruger with the small wooden grips: ouch! Some of the agents at her station had the newer Security-Sixes in stainless with a heavier barrel and Pachmyer Presentation grips and I imagine those would have handled the magnums a lot better.

Amongst knowledgeable 357 shooters, one of the most respected cast bullet designs was the Lyman 358156. Also known as the Thompson bullet, named for it's designer, it is a gas check SWC that can weight between 155 and 160 grains depending on alloy and when the mold was made. One of the unique features is a pair of crimp grooves allowing you to use it in 357 or 38 brass and still achieve the same overall length. I also seem to recall seeing a hollow point version, but I can't remember if that was a special order or someone's custom work.
In any case, assuming your cylinder throats and groove diameter were a good match, and bullets cast to throat diameter or .001" over, you could count on fine long range accuracy and fairly flat trajectory. The gas check really helped, which is noteworthy since many times it doesn't help too much. Cast hard, it is a real penetrator and fine hunting bullet. Loaded down a bit from full loads, and cast a little softer (1:16 tin lead) and it is a fine service load.
It had been my observation that the JHP/JSP trend really started to catch on around the same time that Colt and S&W started letting guns out that were out of spec (timing issues, excessive variations in cylinder throats, etc.)
Then again, I'm one of those guys that is cast bullet biased!

Best regards,
Jim

Grips can have 2 "faces:" one when installed, and a 2nd when fired. The Colt Mk V .357 snub had a nice-feeling service-style wood grip that turned into a beast when fired with Mag loads. I found a pair of Pach Grippers, but they made the gun as heavy as a 4". Adios, muchacho.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

At least some of the original 357 ammo used large primers. This is a partial box I was given in the 70's. Fired a couple in a Model 28 back then and I remember they had more recoil than commercial ammo of the time.

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Groo here
I think the 38-44 high speed also used a large primer

I remember having Super Vel .357s in my Colt Trooper when I was a Reserve Deputy back in the 1970s. I will have to look around and see if I still have a box to take a photo of.

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RudyN
NRA Patron Life Member

I used those old Speer 146gr 1/2 jacket HPSWC bullets in my S&W Model 27 with 8.375" barrel when I shot IHMSA metallic silhouette. It was VERY effective on the 200 meter rams!

While the early 357s were loaded with 158 SWC bullets, I think that you will find that many of those bullets wore gas checks on the heel of the bullets to minimize leading.

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Judge control not gun control!

I am learning a few things I didn't know, and I do appreciate the personal experiences shared. Kudos All!

A little off topic, but the popular loads back when I was getting into shooting were the 125gr semi-jacketed soft point rounds. I wasn't reloading then, nor shooting much .357, so the brands and velocities are hazy, but I seem to recall Remington (or Federal???) being pretty darn hot. I was really impressed with a piece of 1/4" steel plate that a buddy had with a nice .357 hole in it, big crater too. He just said it was "a kind of hot load"....yeah, right!

When I picked this M27 at the shop (GB sale) I found all the paperwork in the case under the insert (seller apparently never knew it was in there). The shop "assistants" were expressing great disbelief over some of the loads in the helpful hints brochure (I think that was it, CRS!) - some of the lighter grain loadings were listed at 1500-1600 fps or more! I should probably dig it out and scan it sometime... but whatever, there were many who regarded the .357 as a rifle in the shape of a handgun! Thank you Elmer Keith, Phillip B. Sharpe, and Colonel D. B. Wesson!

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

If "Older Days" means 1930s -50s , as noted , the store bought options were swaged 158 swc, sometimes with gas check, some times copper washed, or the metal capped " metal piercing "..In No Second Place Winner , Bill Jordan wrote of carrying .38Spl in towns, and .357 out in the brush ( pre- expanding era ). Skeeter Skelton wrote of frequently using .38-44 loads in his .357 guns ( again in pre- expanding era ).

A gun savy lawman in the day would have carried handloads. Kieth or Thompson or Sharpe SWC probably wouldn't expanand either, but : have sharper shoulders & larger meplats, less bbl leading, could be tailored to desired vel level ( aka desired level of recoil/ control).

For that matter , if not specifically required to use a .38/.357 , a gun savy lawman would also likely to choose a .44Spl .

Casting and hand loading really bring out what this round can do. Some of the molds were designed to maximize what can be done using (150 gr cast and 38Special brass) the shorter cylindered revolvers.



A lot of first hand experience and information has been lost in the last several decades as folks have passed away and trends have shifted.

The 357Magnum is one effective, and flexible, round.

For more fun, try it in a 16" barreled carbine sometime - 180 gr handloads with Lil Gun (out of the 16" barrel) approach or surpass some original 190 gr loadings for the 30-30 (out of a 24" or so rifle barrel).....

There is a reason the "modern" 125 gr 357Sig round works so well on the street - (paper ballistics do not tell the whole story (same as we find for the large bore revolver rounds)).

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

I have seen and shot metal point bullets in .357 magnum many years ago.
I bought these a few years ago, didn't know they made them for reloading purposes.

terry

These two rounds aren't from 1935, but they are over 50 years old, which is close to "back in the day." The one on the left is a Peter's "158 grain lead" (the identical round also came in a Remington box) and the one on the left is a Winchester-Western Lubaloy. Yes, both will lead the barrel nicely.

Found these in my archive. Would you suppose that they would do well in a J frame .357? They are a little old & probably not as powerful as when new. Not as expensive as you would think.

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An old neighbor, Joe E., retired from Immigration & Naturalization in about 1982 or 83. He had worked in the U. S. Border Patrol in Texas and Arizona before that. Great old guy, great wife, Lois. They were retiring to land they owned in Tennessee. He left me with some odds and ends to shoot up. He said the oldest was their original duty ammo (from his era, probably mid-to-late 1950's) Western brand .357 Magnum ammo. It was 158 grain SWC with a copper wash. Cases were nickel. He had been shooting them in his 2-1/2-inch Model 19 S&W. He gave me about 75-80 of them. I shot all but 2 or 3. They leaded my 6-inch Model 28 so badly the rifling was completely covered. I pulled the bullet from one of the last, unfired cartridges with an inertia hammer. The bullet was plain-based, swaged, soft lead. As soft as the Speer and Hornaday swaged bullets. Copper wash covered the entire bullet but made it no harder. They squished as easily with a pair of pliers as did a Speer swaged bullet. My cast bullets, mostly heat-treated cast lead alloy (mostly wheel weights with some plumber tin) were far harder .

He told me that all the agents complained about the lead magnums. Took a lot of work to clean their guns after qualifying.They were very powerful but really dirty and the agents were all very happy to get jacketed hollowpoints later.

I showed him how to clean his chamber and bore with some Big .45's Frontier metal scrub pad threads wrapped around the appropriate bore brush.