I recently bought a 1000 rds of American eagle 180 grain fmj for target load

and then someone asked me if I had hollow points in my home for self protection.. Am I missing something here mistake me if im wrong im a few month old 1st pistol gun owner. But wont target load hurt just as much If god forbid I had to use it in a self defense situation...


Thanks..

It's all about placement. Where you hit the bad guy. Although I do have hollow points and target ammo. I don't think the bad guy will notice the difference if you had to drop him. Of course there will be tons of differences that will be posted here, I'll go grab my popcorn.

Hurt v. mortally wound. That's the key. In a SD situation, you are likely looking to be sure you stop the intruder. Hollow points give you the best chance of doing this with much more tolerance of placement.

This thread will go on a while with a lot of bickering, arguing, and disagreement back and forth. Personally, I don't care to be shot with either one, but I fully intend on not putting myself in that situation either.

Get some nice hollow points (Many opinions to follow) and keep a mag in the gun when you're in the house or in a SD situation. Save the FMJ stuff for the range and plinking.

Having said that, I always keep a FMJ as my first and sometimes second round. Why? I'll give somebody a fighting chance. Second shot I'm telling them what's coming if I have a chance. Some will disagree with this way of doing things but I don't care. That's what I do.

I'm assuming you have a 40 cal pistol.

If you are in the mode of learning your new gun, and practicing shooting IMO you are just fine with FMJ 180 grain cartridges.

In the unlikely event that you need to protect your home, a couple of hits with a 180 grain FMJ will do a bad guy a world of hurt.

After you shoot those 1000 rounds and become familiar with your new gun, then you might buy some hollow point ammo for home defense.

But you can't just buy one box of HP and keep it for defense.

You need to determine if your gun will handle it without jamming and with reasonable accuracy. That will also take some practice with the HP ammo.

Good defense HP ammo is expensive.

Might as well get your feet wet with the low priced target FMJ like American Eagle first.

Just my opinion here.

One advantage to hollow points is that they will expand and that will help to keep the bullet from going all the way through the bad guy. Its best if the bullet stays in the person who you had to shoot to minimize risk to bystanders.

Responses to the above should be good for a second batch of popcorn.

Nice of you to give fair warning twice to someone who may be willing to kill you or yours.

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Incoming fire has right of way

I believe the thought about hollow points has to do with penetration. You want something that will hopefully stop the bad guy. But you don't want a bullet that will go through walls, possibly hurting innocents in the other room. Hollow points will spread out, thus slowing it down, and help eliminate the chance of going through walls and keep going as opposed to regular ammo that does not have anything to slow it down.

Go on youtube and search for videos of hollow points vs fmj in he'll tests.

Generally hollow points are better. They expand, causing a bigger permanent cavities

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Told you I fully expected that. Told ya I didn't care. Still feel the same. Still will at the end of the conversation also.

thanks guys ... I don't want any arguments im asking cause I really wants to know..

I have already put nearly 500 rds thru my 40 I bought the 1000 rds from cheap ammo and a excellent price ... my range does not allow hollow points to be fired there.. I don't know why.. but my gun has shot everything without a problem except for the Winchester winclean rounds... had many FTF with the hard primers..

Should you shoot a few of the HP's you're going to carry or keep in the gun at home to make sure they feed correctly? Sure. Do you need to do it with 50 boxes. Not really. Run a half to a full box thru. If they run OK, leave the rest in a mag for self defense and put it in the gun when you need it.

I have a FS 40, a compact 40 and a Shield 40. They all eat anything I throw at them.

Oh boy... talk about opening a can of worms.

The number of varying opinions on what constitutes proper/adequate self defense ammo is as numerous as the grains of sand on a beach.

Many, including myself, believe accurate shot placement into a vital area that results in a rapid and catastrophic blood loss to turn out the lights, is more crucial of a factor than ammo type.

Unless hit in the head, people do not stop in their tracks and crumble into a dead heap upon being shot, as seen on TV and the movies.

Read this and form your own opinion: FBI Training Unit - Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

Page 8 "The Human Target"... most interesting.

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Conrad
SWCA #1830 SWHF #222

This is my thought process. More worry at my home than out and about. Don't want to hurt anyone in my family, or worse.

Point 2: Every bullet has a lawyers name attached to it, you shoot a bystander, even through a bad guy, you have a problem.

Finally, for me I went the way of Hornady Critical defense, has that little rubberized point as not to clog so it will (in theory) expand as soon as it hits, where as a HP tip gets clogged with say denim, it may not expand (but most likely will) and keep right on going like a FMJ.



My thoughts on FMJ, for the range only. Most ranges won't let you use anything else and for practice it is usually the cheapest thing going. Even then, I burn 100 rounds, I'm out $40,00 plus range fee for one session. (I don't do reloads) That's just me, nothing wrong with them.

Phew, I'm done!

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Criminals don't register guns.

I am retired law enforcement officer, having joined in 1971. I was always issued hollow point ammunition for my service revolver and later my service pistol. If hollow points were good enough for law enforcement, then it's good enough for me. I always keep a loaded magazine with hollow points and one in the tube. I don't give warnings. The only warning they will get is if and when they break into my house. Warning over!

I've seen various bullet wounds at work. A person will die quite well with a FMJ bullet if hit in the right place. I've also seen the results of quality hollow points, and the amount of tissue damage can be amazing. Both will work effectively, but the HP give you that little extra in my opinion.

Develop comfortable competence with your pistol using the ammo you have. If you end up needing to shoot an intruder (being in NJ, I am going to assume you are among the vast majority screwed with their silly carry laws), skill with the pistol and a good knowledge of where to put the rounds (go to Tactical Anatomy - Tactical Anatomy and learn the target areas on a human) will be more important that having the utter peak of ammo performance. Will good HP duty ammo help performance? Heck yes. Will good ammo make up for crummy shooting and placement? No.

Once you have developed proficiency, do some research on LE ammo performance. The first step is to look for Doctor Gary Roberts' recommendations. Pick one of those loads you can get in a case lot. Put 500 rounds through the pistol with perfect reliability, and save the rest to use as needed. You can do almost all of your training with the ball you have and more ball afterwards. Shoot up your carry (a misnomer in NJ, and only LE can carry HP outside of home and some other limited places in NJ anyway) ammo once a year. Do not unload your pistol unless you have to (cleaning etc), and never chamber a round twice unless it is an emergency.

You did not ask a dumb question. It was an IGNORANT question, and there is quite a difference. Ignorance is cured by education. Stupid is not curable except in a Darwinian manner.

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NHI, 10-8.

the comment above that every bullet comes with a lawyers name attached to it..

Ive been reading what I can about self defense home defense... basically what ive read is that your screwed either way.. if you shoot someone who breaks into your home your basically going to jail in new jersey.. and if you do intend to shoot someone whos breaking into your home.. Ive read hed better have a weapon of some sort in which your life felt threatened.. and if you do shoot said individual youd better shoot him when hes facing you and not running away.. am I right to be thinking all this

Look at ballistic gel shots with fmj's and hollow points.

A hollow point serves 2 purposes. The first is to deliver more the kinetic energy into the target at impact therefore giving greater "stopping power".

The second is to "minimize" penetration. In other words supposedly the hollow point will not leave the human body and if it does there will not be any energy left to harm an innocent bystander.

A full metal jacket will go through a man and is still more than capable of harming other people after words (the exact extent depends on a lot of factors). With in mind if you do ever have to use the gun in self defense realize that YOU ARE RESPONSABLE for whatever comes out that barrel. In other words if you shoot, legally, a armed assailant and the bullet hurts or kills some one else YOU ARE GOING TO PRISON for attempted murder or murder, not to mention is the person killed is your wife or kid in the other room.

So hollow points increase your chances of stopping the bad guy and also prevent serious over penetration. That's what I use for carry and backup to the shotgun for home defense. They are expensive but being that you don't shoot much of them it's worth using.

Heck ya your right to be thinking this. You never want to shoot someone in the back

I noticed the OP is from New Jersey.
Better read the state law on hollowpoint ammunition in that state:

New Jersey State Police - Transportation and Use of Hollow Point Ammunition by Sportsmen

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NRA R.S.O. & Life Member

Yes, OP is from NJ...

-Cliff's Notes-

Basically, you can only carry hollow points 1) at home and 2) directly to the range and back - that's it. Otherwise, it's a felony with something rediculous like a 3 year mandatory minimum sentence. You can't even carry hollow points in NJ if you have a concealed carry permit, which is pretty much impossible to get to begin with. Brian Aitken served time for just having hollow points in his car.

The short answer is use Hornady Critical Defense bullets at home if you want a decent self-defense bullet that is NJ-legal. These have a polymer plug in the tip which doesn't technically categorize them as hollow points. I would absolutely use that at home and NOT FMJ ammo.

Wow, NJ laws are worse than CA laws. That's ridiculous.

I saw this in the law posted above:
They wrote right in the law that their intent is to limit the ability to get ammo.

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Freedom isn't free.

You are fine with any ammo that reliably works in your pistol AND that you can shoot.

Forget about the 'gee whiz' ammo.

Just hit what you're shooting at.

Use the ammo that works AND that you shoot most: it is almost certainly the ammo you shoot best.

I think that training is far more important than ammo selection (JHP vs FMJ). After all, the real objective should you get into a gun fight is to not get shot. The type of ammo in your gun won't prevent getting shot. Tactics and knowing how to use your gun in a self defense situation is far more important.

I only have FMJ because that's what I use at the range to practice and train with. In the the very rare event that I would actually need to use my gun, FMJ will work just fine if I can deploy it in a manner consistent with my training.


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I forgot to mention, my backup/spare mag is full of JHP. Only my primary is Hornady Critical Defense


Less toxic in FL.

Gotta love stand your ground. That DOES NOT give you the RIGHT to shoot anyone and unfortunately the Judicial system and lawyers abuse this law. It is currently being fine tuned to be more definitive as to eliminate the George Zimmerman types. There is a difference in Stand Your Ground and self defense shootings.

Stand your ground doesn't normally get to trial, but idiots who become cowboys have to plead self defense and it makes it hard on all of the rest of us who just want to live in a safe environment.

(I now have stepped down off my soapbox) thank you for your time.

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Criminals don't register guns.

Most of us have an overly optimistic perception of our accuracy potential during a dynamic, high-stress situation. "How could I miss at such close range?"

Your statement about expansion and the resulting reduction in penetration are spot on. However, this theory of minimized risk to bystanders assumes every round fired finds it's mark.

Truely, the biggest risk to bystanders are the misses which never hit the bad guy and are still zipping along at full velocity.

Edmo

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TRUTH: Don't delete my posts!

Please check out the following links:

Massad Ayoob

Defense Loads of Choice: The Word from the Street | Tactical Life

It wouldn't hurt others to read the info provided in the above links too. Many people are woefully (and for some are just willfully) ignorant about the use of FMJ/Solid bullets for SD purposes.

You asked a question that has too many answers. If you only had a muzzle loader that's what you'd use. Use what you have and don't get confused. Most of my bullets are lead and not hollow points so that's what I use. If you get expensive ammo it won't get used for a lot practice. I read that wad or semi wad cutters have better shocking power, Hollow points don't always expand.

Hollow points are fine, if they work, which in more cases than not they don't. But then there is no single bullet type that will be the best choice in every situation. The truth is that hollow points are not that much better than all the rest if they work, and are a lot worse than some if they don't.

The police, and many others, have been led to believe they are great by the ammo makers and their representatives because they charge such a large sum for them. Now they have a false sense of security thinking that because their high magazine capacity guns are loaded with hollow points, they are better off and don't have to worry about how bad their shooting skills are. But they are mistaken, often fatally. What you carry in what makes no difference in a real world shooting, it's how you use them.

I currently have my mags full of hps. I personally was really concerned with penetration since we don't have large properties and our homes are so close together. Fmjs tend to penetrate more which equals to potential legal consequences for me.

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I find the direction of this thread interesting.

In another thread, I mentioned that I would carry FMJ or hardball ammo in a .40S&W gun. Another member literally came unglued at the prospect that anyone would carry anything other than hollow points. So, I find it interesting that in this thread we have many who recommend standard ammo along with hollow points.

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Freedom isn't free.

That's enough for me. Use whatever the hell makes you feel confident and shoots well in your guns. This is becoming the same old same old. See you folks.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Just another tip to add. There is case law showing that people who used reloaded ammunition with cast lead bullets instead of factory ammunition, hollow point or otherwise, have been convicted of murder (somehow cast bullets in reloaded ammo shows intent to kill) in self defense situations. Long story short, make sure you have factory ammo in your firearm outside of the range, ball ammo or jacketed hollow point, whatever your State allows.

Oh, you'll have to post a link to that case law. Otherwise, I say BS.

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Freedom isn't free.

I'd get some hollow points. I like the Speer Gold Dots and Federal HST. Hornady is another great option and PDX1 is really good too. I like heavy for caliber (180 Grain) and bonded bullets. A lot of good stuff out there.

The military has pretty good luck using FMJ bullets, just sayin.

Jim

The U.S. military uses FMJ bullets because they follow the treaties set forth under The Hague Accords of 1899 that prohibits the use of soft lead, exposed lead tip and hollow cavity "expanding" or "Dum Dum" bullets against military combatants during international warfare.

These accords do not prohibit the use of "expanding" bullets by a country's internal law enforcement personnel or by civilians.

Your attempt to try and justify the use of FMJ ammunition by either LE and/or lawfully armed citizens by saying FMJ ammunition works well for our military personnel engaged in warfare with enemy combatants is like trying to compare apples to automobiles. It's not even in the same ballpark.

Here is my 2 cents. Colder times with heaver clothing FMJ, Warmer times with thinner clothing HP. Always know where the other bedrooms in the house are with respect to where you are. If the BG is between you and the kids room DO NOT SHOOT! If no kids hole up in a corner behind whatever cover you have and call 911. Someone questioned direction BG is facing. you can only shoot if your or someone else's life is in danger, if he BG is running away from you then your life is not threatened, no shoot. As a final note PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!

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Retired Marine Gunny

Whatever the reason for using them the reputation of the 1911 .45 acp
as a very effective combat handgun was built on FMJ ammo. Worldwide
the most common handgun and sub machine round has been the 9 mm
with FMJ ammo for many years. If FMJ ammo was ineffective against
human targets you would think the armed forces of the world would
have figured it out by now.

" and never chamber a round twice unless it is an emergency."

I have always used HP ammo for home defense but I am curious about the above statement. I have always kept one chambered and when I go to the range I swap out to FMJ and after practice I hand chamber the first round and reinsert the mag fully loaded with HP.

Actually there is NO CASE LAW of someone being convicted for using handloads. That particular bit was made up by a magazine writer, probably on a whim to see just how gullible his readers were. The simple fact is that people typically get convicted for Murder when they are involved in a shooting that could not be fully justified as being Self Defense. Even California and New York have actual Case Law on the books establishing your right to defend yourself.

The plain truth is that in any shooting case the Police, Prosecutors, or Coroners won't even consider if hand loaded ammunition was used, those who load their own ammunition are actually a somewhat small minority of the shooting public. Keep you mouth shut and nobody will ever know if you used hand loaded ammo.

Now back to the subject at hand. Hollow Points are considered illegal by most Police and Prosecutors in the state of New Jersey. In addition I would bet if surveyed every single coroner in that state believes that hollow point ammunition is illegal for Civilians in that state. So, the Coroners reports will point out that illegal ammunition was used in a Civilian shooting if they see any evidense of an expanding bullet. This means that the use of expanding bullets that technically are legal for sale will likely produce a Coroners Report stating the opposite if the recovered bullets expanded. That same Coroner will also testify in Court that he believes that illegal expanding bullets were used.

I would suggest that the OP ignore every suggestion for Critical Defense or similar ammunition's and stick to honing his skills with plain old FMJ or TMJ. Yeah, overpenetration may be an issue, so make sure you don't miss and that you are within the walls of your home. One minor factor that may reduce the potential for over penetration would be to choose ammunition that uses a "light for caliber" bullet such as a 155 grain bullet in the 40 caliber. Another factor would be to hand load your SD ammunition to a somewhat reduced velocity. Of course the problem here would be an end result of a load featuring a 155 grain bullet at say 750-800 fps that is a lot less lethal than what those of us in Free States carry. However, one positive is that it would also be a load with near zero muzzle flip that the shooter could place with very deadly accuracy.

Another option would be to rely on a 12 gage shotgun for Home Defense and keep it loaded with 00 Buckshot. As far as I know Buckshot is perfectly legal in New Jersey, the individual pellets rarely penetrate more than 2 layers of drywall, and it's a real man stopper at close range with a good COM hit.

There is a very popular regurgitation on the internet about how much better modern factory handgun ammunition has gotten in recent years. It hasn't gotten better, it's actually worse than ever, it just costs a lot more.

The shooting industry is almost completely controlled by gun writers that know no more than most of their readers, and write nothing but BS and lies to sell their work. If this sounds a little personal, it is, because of what they have done to the law enforcement community. As scooter said above, there is no case law about anyone going to jail because he used reloads, the article appears to have been a malicious lie fabricated around a real trial.

Also, most of the information about hollow points not passing through people and hitting someone else is highly exaggerated, right along with their performance being better than any other bullet type.

I believe international conventions have long outlawed the use of expanding or what used to be called "dumdum" bullets.

As to the gunwriters controlling the shooting industry, I think that's backward. Most gunwriters are, I firmly believe, pawns of the shooting industry, and push guns and ammunition that are most heavily advertised in their publications. It seems to me that the gun magazines are largely advertising circulars these days, and you can bet the editors and publishers will favor the products of their biggest buyers of ad space.

There are exceptions. Massad Ayoob, who is a member here, seems to be one notable example, and there may be others--I've stopped trying to track them. But if I had the money to buy guns in my old age, I'd do a hell of a lot of research before I'd buy a gun or a wonder round based on its being the one heavily pushed in this month's gun mags.

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Oh well, what the hell.

One thing nice about the FMJ bullet is that it very seldom jams............
The JHP bullets need to be tested to make sure they will "Function" in your pistols !!

Depending on the velocity of the FMJ, they may over penetrate, where the JHP design will normally stop after 16" but if plugged, they too will over penetrate.

I have seen test with the light weight little 38 special with a plugged 125gr HP go through a 21" gel pack with four layers of levi.....

two shots, in a row !!

Just try for shot placement and hope for the best...........

*
Sometimes this can result in subtle pressures pushing the bullet back into the cartridge case. Even relatively small amounts that we cannot perceive can result in serious increases in pressure. I'm not a physicist, but my recollection is that the decrease in case volume remaining under the bullet means pressure increases that are not linear but many multiples of the decrease. That means you can have real (as opposed to controlled) explosion; hard on the gun, your hand, your face. Ammo is cheap; body parts, not so much.

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NHI, 10-8.

I assume getting hit by a "target load" will not feel all that great, but I cannot confirm that it will "hurt just as much" as a hollow point.

What I can be sure of is that a target load is less likely to stop an opponent all else being equal. Hollow points are designed to expand on impact in order to lessen the amount of penetration in order to have all of the energy of the round expended within the target, as opposed to having a bunch of energy wasted if the bullet passes completely through the target continuing down range to do further damage elsewhere.

The other good reason for a hollow point is that it is less likely to overpenetrate, and therefore less likely to injure or kill a bystander or a loved one who is in the path of the bullet, but beyond the target or in the next room.

International treaties (Hague Accords) regarding warfare amongst nations PROHIBIT expanding, deforming "Dum Dum" ammunition. Those soldiers caught using such ammo can be summarily executed by their captors. This is why militaries across the globe use FMJ.

Regarding 45ACP FMJ ammo, if men can take multiple hits with rifle rounds, what makes you think that a 230gr bullet moving at 650-700fps max will be so much more effective than high velocity rifle rounds? The old popular sayings like "they all fall to 45 Hardball" is all just so much bull pucky.

Guns? You guys carry guns???

This is what the experts tried to claim back when they were trying to push the 9mm in the 9mm vs. 45acp. wars. They coined phrases like "total energy dump" saying the bullet had to stop in the target to be effective and if it passed through it wasn't. They tried to deny it for a long time, but the amount of harmful energy from a handgun round that is really transferred to the target isn't all that much, they didn't understand what kinetic energy really was, and I'm sure many still don't.

But even then, hollow points weren't about reducing penetration. Hollow points are designed to increase the surface area of the bullet to create a larger permanent wound channel to cause more tissue damage. They don't always expand and even when they do they don't always obtain the desired final shape to accomplish this 'wish'. Most modern HP's are designed to meet the FBI's standards after the tragic shooting in Miami in 1986. Their requirements are for a bullet to fully expand shortly after impact and penetrate for a minimum of 12" to a maximum of 18". To get the full understanding of that distance, take a tape measure down to your local prison and see how many inmates that won't go completely through.

That's exactly what I did in my younger age. I had bought a book by a well known writer and read it constantly. Then, after buying my first gun, I found most of it wasn't exactly as he had written, and it was even worse after I bought more guns and started reloading. I quit reading gun mags a very long time ago. I will occasionally pick an issue up in the store and look it over, and then regret I did.

There is no such thing as a "one and done" pistol round, any time, every time. Rifle rounds don't always do that and they have more power.

Larger bores do have a better chance at doing so but there is no guarantee.

Hollow points increase that likely hood and have the potential to no over penetrate but again, that is not a guarantee. It will require at least a double tap but don't count on that. Thus why we are trained in the carry community to shoot until the threat is stopped. Not killed, stopped.

Concerning the comment about the international rules on hollow point ammunition, that is correct. The military is not allowed to use hollow points except is limited circumstances, like special forces operations may get issued hollow points.

Concerning 00 buck for home defense, I happen to agree. My shotgun is loaded with it and my Taurus Judge is loaded with 000 buck since I live in a suburban community. Punching through my house and into the next is a big concern if I miss.