Over the past few years I have really gotten into testing and Chronographing various .38 Special self defense loads since that is what I carry in my Model 60-7. Many of the results have been posted on this and other Forums and would like to post some interesting findings from todays Chronograph tests.

As some here might already know, I am a huge Buffalo Bore fan and that is my daily carry load (158 grain HEAVY +P LSWCHP-GC - 1040 fps from a 2" bbl. and 1170 fps from a 6" barrel). Now, as some may know, Remington recently re-branded their "FBI load" and their long time designation of R38S12 is now known as High Terminal Performance or HTP. In a call to them about a year ago I was told that the new HTP load is identical to their older R38S12 and the only thing new was the packaging. Recently I purchased a few boxes of the new HTP ammo and while at the Range today Chronographing M1 Carbine and other loads I wanted to compare the old against the new Remington FBI load offerings as well.

Now just as a note, I almost always test .38 Special carry ammo from my 2" M60-7 but today I had a M27 with a 6" barrel since I was also testing some .357 offerings.

Firing 10 rounds each from the M27 here are the results of the old vs the new. Todays weather was 67º F, dry and very sunny.

OLD R38S12 158 GRAIN +P LSWCHP FBI LOAD FROM 6" M27

LOW: 953
HIGH: 969
AVG: 964

NEW HTP 158 GRAIN +P LSWCHP FBI LOAD FROM 6" M27

LOW: 859
HIGH: 884
AVG: 872

As the results show, Remington's new FBI load offering seems to have shed just under 100 feet per second when they re-branded it. I did only open and test one box so far but since they were fairly consistent I would expect that these results are reflecting what they are currently loading. I would really like to know if anyone else has done a comparison of the new & old and what their results were. Now remember, these results are from a 6" barrel and would expect a reduction of at least 100 or so F/S from a 2" barrel. That would result in around 770 fps out of a Chief's Special with their new HTP offering as compared to around 860 fps from their older one.

I am not saying the new bullet won't do what it is supposed to do, but I am saying that they seemed to have watered it down by more than 10%. I also realize that bullet performance is not solely judged by its velocity, but given the fact that the bullets in both the old and new are identical, I would think that bullet performance would certainly be affected by this velocity reduction. If anybody with a Chronograph has both new and old Remington FBI loads at their disposal, I would certainly like to know what their results might be. Please post if you are able.

Regards,
Chief38

Ughhh... gross.

I was in the market for some new Remington 158 gr. "HTP" .38 special +P LSWCHPs, but not anymore.

Looks like the old FBI load is dead, at least from the likes of Remington.

I'm not sure if Federal or Winchester even load their versions of the FBI load anymore, and that's a shame. As is this Remington watering down business.

My guess is Big Green did it to reduce price. I wouldn't doubt they were satisfied with reducing the powder charge or formula in order to cut costs.

These days, pretty much the only places you can find true full-power ammo are from companies like Buffalo Bore and Double Tap, Underwood, etc.

Guess I'm trying the Buffalo Bore stuff just in time. I still have a little of the old Remington version, which I'll hang onto.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Chief, nice test. I sure wish you would have remembered your snubby. I'll see if I can't chrono some of the new stuff in a 442 for a confirmation.

I shot some of the old stuff in a GP100 3" back in 2012 and got this for five shots:

833, 846, 834, 854 & 846. Avg. = 843 fps. The same day I shot some Speer .38 Spcl. 135 gr. +p Gold Dots & got this:

891, 890, 907, 921, 915 & 928. Avg. = 909 fps.

Buffalo Bore .38 Spcl. +p SWCLHP: 1045, 1057, 1055, 1066 & 1075. Avg. = 1060 fps.

Could the reduced velocity with a 6" barrel be due to the use of a faster burning powder in the HTP load? If it is in fact a reduced charge, a quick seperation of components and weighing of powder charges would confirm it.

More importantly though, the thing I'd like to see is whether or not the HTP LHP exhibits the same expansion characteristics of the Express version.

Anyone care to donate a box of HTP38S12 to tnoutdoors9?

I don't believe 'TN...' accepts ammo donations for test as he has been swamped, according to his video. Also, he has been very ill from flu: in a recent post, he was very weak and had lost 30 pounds. All testing on hold for the foreseeable future.

As to the R-P LHP results, now I am very ill. The original W-W FBI loads from the early 70s ran a measured 1010fps or so from 4", now down to the 890fps of recent years. Now again? This is a real kick in the teeth. Interested in what 2" and 4" tests would show.

Fortunately, I still have a few boxes of those 70s loads.

I WILL test these new HTP loads out of my 2" Chief's some time soon and WILL post results here. In the mean time if anyone has both new and old versions and a Chronograph it would be very interesting to see if they too get the same results.

By the way and just for info............ I've Chronographed Buffalo Bore's +P load many times from many different boxes and the results are always the same - they are incredibly consistent as are the Speer Gold Dot. Just wish the Gold Dots were 158 grains with the same results.

Seems perfectly consistent with my posted results from last years post shot out of my M60-7 Chief's Special. If you do a search you will find it I am sure.

Regards,
Chief38

The Federal and Winchester results were actually around what the NEW Remington HTP results were, and the OLD Remington R38S12 was the shinning star among the Big Three ammo Co's. 158 grain +P 38 Special FBI loadings. If you do a search here you should find the results from that posting as well.
I am a BB man myself, but anybody who prefers Remington should seek out the older R38S12 designated FBI load from a year or so ago from what I saw yesterday. Remember, the results from yesterday were from a 6" M27 and NOT my usual 2" M60-7 so you will have to extrapolate about 100 fps.

Heck, the standard pressure Buffalo Bore is much faster than that. Too bad.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

I did break down one of the new "HTP" loads a while back. I'm away from my notes at the moment, but will try to remember to post when I can get to them.

Re: OP. Do not question your results. Reason for lower velocity quite likely due to liability concerns. Solution is to handload using well tested data from reputable sources. This will allow the handgunner to produce ammunition that exploits the full potential of a cartridge without being unduly hampered by a industry whose guide is Chicken Little. For those who do not handload, Buffalo Bore happily offeres ammunition in a variety of calibers that produce full velocity and power using appropriate bullets. This allows those persons to have ammunition available that will perform at the highest level of power and accuracy.

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<><

When I tested a bunch of 38 Special SD ammo 6 months ago (from my 2" M60-7) Buffalo Bore's NON +P is almost exactly to the fps what the OLD Remington R38S12 was. Today's NEW HTP version is about 70 or 80 fps slower than BB's NON +P = dismal IMHO. Why the heck they had to mess with a proven product I do not know, but LIABILITY is probably correct.

Have you noticed how NEW is not necessarily BETTER? Usually it's cheaper to manufacture and we get charged more for it!
It's only better for them.
Gary

I'm in the crowd that thinks it's cost-cutting as much as liability. Massive numbers of products are getting a little (or a lot) smaller so the price stays the same (or nearly so). Take a look at a simple box of cereal - the 18 oz box is now 16.5 or 15.7 oz. That two-quart carton of ice cream is now 1.75 or even 1.5 quarts. Same with paper products like tissue or T.P. - the square footage you get is reduced by 10% of what it once was, because they don't want you to see a massive price hike.

If Remington figures they can cut 5% of the powder out of a load, and still have it perform "acceptably" (by their standards), they're going to do it. No company is going to turn down a 5% reduction in costs if they think they can get away with it.

To kaaskop49:

Sorry to hear tnoutdoors9 is under the weather and overwhelmed with tests. I'm a bit dismayed over the recent discoveries about the new HTP loading, but I'm reserving final judgement until someone can test it to see if the bullet performs the same as it does in the Express loading. My biggest concern is that we may have ended up with a load that only expands out of service length barrels.

To Ben_hutcherson:

Much obliged, and any info you provide will be greatly appreciated.

To everyone else:

There are lots of possible reasons why the HTP LHP is cheaper. Thinner brass? Reduced powder charge? Faster burning powders? All of the above? High standard deviations don't speak well for Remington's quality control, but the final arbiter is whether or not the new bullets exhibit the same expansion characteristics of the old ones within the observed velocity envelope.

All these ill tidings make me glad I have at least some Express LHPs squirreled away. Once those are gone though, I may have little choice but to switch to one of the more modern, light-for-caliber offerings.

Well, it was 85F with a stiff breeze and to the range I went. I chronographed the "new" rd. in question out of a Model 442:

789, 781, 805, 787, 794 + one "mulligan" of 800 to make an even six for a 793 fps avg.

I then shot five Buffalo Bore 158 gr. +p LSWCHP in the same gun for:

1020, 961, 979, 986 & 963. Avg. 982 fps.

As a quasi-control I shot one Speer 135 gr. +p Gold Dot that was 883 fps and one Corbon .38 Spcl. +p 110 gr. DPX that was 955 fps.

As a bonus I shot five rds. of Atomic .38 Spcl +p 148 gr. "Reverse WC" and got:

829, 821, 821, 806 & 765 for an avg. of 808 fps. Not exactly a rocket.

Please do post more about these loads. Remember, firing .38 Plus P out of a .357 loses some velocity that you'd have in a .38-chambered gun. I think this averages some 40 FPS in a four-inch gun.

I wonder exactly what causes a mild load like that to be a +P?

A this point I'd say optimism.

Of course this is just my personal opinion, but I have no use for .357 Mag's from a 2" tube. I see too many disadvantages and zero benefits. IMHO the BB 158 Gr. HEAVY +P is the best and stiffest load I care to carry in a Chief's Spl. and there is NOTHING at all wrong with the Speer 135 Gr. Gold Dot either. I just prefer 158 grain bullets however if someone does not want the recoil from the BB Heavy, then the Speer GD makes perfect sense. The longer the Big 3 ammo Co's produce the "FBI LOAD" the more watered down they seem to make it.

By the way, from my testings the Winchester version is actually wimpier than Remington's and federal's is between the two.

Interesting here. I picked up two boxes of Rem 40sw HTPs, one 180 and the other 155.

I wonder these are going to be watered down as well.

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_It was love at first shot_

I do not own any .40's so I am unable to test them or you. I do think the S&W .40 is a great defense round and if I were an Auto carrying guy I would consider getting one. Most of my shootin' Bud's are old school like me and off hand I can't think of any friends who own 40's either.

Fun numbers for anyone who's interested.

Using Chief's chrono data (and omitting the "mulligan" from the Remington test), I came up with the following numbers:

Remington HTP LHP +P
Avg. Velocity = 791.2 FPS
Std. Deviation = 8.05978 FPS

Buffalo Bore +P LSWCHP
Avg. Velocity = 981.8 FPS
Std. Deviation = 21.31103 FPS

Standard deviation is simply the amount of deviation from the "mean" (or average) velocity for each respective 5-shot sample. Take it as you will.

The next figure is a 10 shot average fired from an M642 Airweight Centennial (data is from the late Stephen A. Camp's website):

Remington Express LHP +P
Avg. Velocity = ~800 FPS

The 10-shot average may not be a fair comparison, but in light of these numbers I'm not seeing a whole lot of differences between the old Express load and the new HTP one.

If you really want me to show you how I did the math, just ask.

Now that I'm looking again at the chrono data for the 6" M27, I suspect that Remington may very well be using a faster burning powder in the HTP load (that, and/or the Express cartridges used might've been from the batches that were loaded to greater OAL, for whatever that's worth).

Thanks, CoMF.


Here's a great old thread that I recalled here on the Forum:

Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

Much obliged, Boge. The Remington numbers kind of confirm my hunch about faster burning powders being used in the HTP.

(Off topic, but wasn't the LSWC +P the NYPD load back when they carried revolvers?)

Been out of NYC for 4 years now. I know the 158gr LSWC +P load was issued at the PD range in the mid 90s. I had some R-P boxes of it. It replaced the standard velocity 158gr SWC (intro'd in the early 70s) which was considered by the powers-that-be an improvement over the LRN 158gr.

Good to have you back, CoMF, your posts have been sorely missed.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Kaaskop:

I don't know if I add a whole lot to the discussion, but thanks all the same.

I've been busy with work and family, so I admittedly haven't been frequenting here as much.

Thanks for all the information Chief. I know how much effort that goes into collecting it...

Wow, after reading this thread I'm very glad I have 3 or 4 boxes of R38S12 ammo plus a half box I'm currently using. I'm not sure if it's 3 or 4 boxes, too lazy to go in the basement and dig it out! lol

I also have 3 boxes of Federal and 2 boxes of Winchester FBI Load. The Federal is in a white box (I think contract overrun) and the Winchester ammo is one old (late 70's) and one newer.

As soon as the weather breaks I'm going to try to find a new box or the Rem stuff and test the old and new Rem. and Win. along with the Fed. stuff and report the results of the 5 loads.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

FWIW, if I were you, I'd hang on to that W-W box from the late 70s. If it's yellow in color, and the cases are cannelured, those rounds are the original LHP loads that clock 1010fps in 4". The real deal, Neal, not the diluted stuff of recent times... Lovely!

One never knows, do one?

That is exactly what I have and I know it already. (but thank you for the info) I have been holding on to that stuff for a good long time. Like I said, I know it's the real deal but unless I prove it what good? I just want to document how really anemic ammo is these days. We are being cheated of the full potential of our chosen SD round. It's no wonder so many younger shooters have no respect for the .38 Special. The .38 Special ammo available today isn't very special at all... (pun intended)

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

As an aside, I purchased a few boxes of Atomic Ammunitions +P .38 Special reversed hollow body wadcutters. Initially, I was disappointed, they did not fit flush in my K-frames. However, they fit fine in my 686 SSR.

All I can say is Lord have mercy. Stout, but not too much. Accurate 15 yards in.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

Nice test and I am glad you ran it. More data to back up the reality that the 38 special is being watered down to the the 38 S&W power levels.

Long live the old FBI load and the old 38 Special. Now it is the 38 "So So"

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SWCA 1646

I wouldn't be so quick to write this one off. This could be something as simple as lot to lot variation which does occur. Here is an example

Remington 38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead Semi Wad Cutter HP Denim and Gel Test - YouTube

On the flip side of the coin I've seen just the opposite of the above.
shown here.
Remington Express 38 Special +P 158 Grain LHP Denim and Gel Test - YouTube

So I strongly suspect that what everyone is seeing is lot to lot variation in this ammo, hey it happens.

The Big Three (Rem, Win, Fed) have changed their spec's so many times throughout the production of their "FBI Load" that it is very important to test the batch of bullets you buy.

I reported about a year or so ago that I sent back 4 boxes of Winchester's version - FBI Load because I actually thought is was standard velocity ammunition loaded in +P marked cases. The letter and refund check I received from Winchester confirmed my belief's and although they were apologetic that would not have helped someone who thought he was carrying +P ammo. When I tested them in my 2" Chief's Special and saw the dismal velocity (high 600's to low 700's) I knew something was wrong.

Buffalo Bore's HEAVY +P's and Speer's +P Short Barrel 135 Gr. Gold Dots are not only the best performing .38 Special SD loads I've tested so far, but they are and have always been extremely consistent from lot to lot. If you feel that the BB +P is a bit too stiff, look at their NON+P rated LSWCHP which is actually hotter than the Big 3's FBI +P Loads!!!

IMHO the BEST MAJOR BRAND (stuff readily available in stores) of Factory produced ammo is Speer/CCI. I am NOT putting Buffalo Bore in the same category because they are a "Boutique" type ammo Company - although they keep growing every year.

From the testing and shooting I've done over the years I would rate the major ammo co's as follows.........

#1) CCI / Speer
#2) Federal
#3) Winchester
#4) Remington

I'd rate Buffalo Bore right up with CCI / Speer but again I view them as a Boutique Co. even though their products (at least the stuff I've tested) consistently comes out on top every time!

I agree - it's about the bottom line. While I understand it's just business, I don't fancy the compromise they're making with my life. Furthermore, I believe the shift to lighter bullet weights is as much driven by cost reduction as anything else, esp. given the increases in metal prices in the last 10 years. A great many shooters have embraced the shift to lighter bullet weights, and now that's just about all I can find most places.

Mas Ayoob has written that Remington's FBI load has a softer lead alloy than Win or Fed. He used to be a big advocate for the loading - not sure what's in his J frame now . . .

My money's on the Speer GDSB load. And to be perfectly honest, I'm not pleased with the big push towards light-for-caliber bullets with reduced sectional densities. Throw expansion into the mix, and you're lucky if they even get close to the 12" penetration mark. What made the FBI load a winner was a combination of penetration AND expansion (under most conditions).

Now, with all this news, my biggest concern is Remington went the way of Winchester and we now have an "FBI load" that can only be reasonably expected to expand from barrels of 3" or longer due to reduced velocity and possibly a harder alloyed bullet.

I guess I should just find a 3" 36-1 for sale somewhere and stop worrying...

Couldn't hurt, but I'd still go with the Buffalo Bore rendition of the FBI load--either one. I'm carrying the standard pressure. Haven't been able to test it yet, but those who have seem to find it ballistically almost identical to the old, good Remington +P load, possibly a smidge hotter in some guns. I have a little Remington Express stuff, but won't be buying any of the new watered-down version.

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Oh well, what the hell.

I appreciate the advice, but I think I'm going to pass. I have enough R38S12 to last into the foreseeable future, and for practice I have the option of Speer Lawman TMJ or good old-fashioned LRN. When that's all gone (and I'll rue the day when it does), I'll either embrace the new light-for-caliber wonder loads or just get a 3" Chief.

As per my notes, the new HTP loads contain 4.7gr powder. I had it noted as a flake powder that "looks like Unique." I realize that commercial ammo rarely uses canister powder, so take that for what it's worth-it was just my impression at the time I took it apart last September.

I didn't really mean it as advice, just what I myself would do faced with what I understood were your choices.

I envy you your stock of the good Remington stuff. I have about thirty rounds. I'll hang onto it, but suspect I'll be buying more of the standard-pressure BB.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Ben:

Thank you for posting the info. I'm looking forward to hearing how the charge compares to that of the Express load.

Shouldazagged:

No worries, and I don't have a ton of R38S12 either. Maybe 260-275 rounds at most. While it was still available, I picked up a box here and there whenever I could afford it.

A couple of the boxes are from the lots that were loaded to a greater OAL and show signs of lackluster QC. The worst examples have poorly swaged/misshapen bullets, hollowpoint cavities plugged with tumbling media, and the occasional dented/scratched case; those are strictly range ammo. None of it has ever failed to go "bang," at least.

I personally test every lot of ammo I purchase for defense BEFORE loading into my carry guns. I no longer take printed data as truthful or realistic and must verify it for myself. The ONLY Company (and yes I mean the ONLY one) that performs exactly as they state is Buffalo Bore. The Speer SBGD come at least close. The others........ not even in the ball park.

I would urge some of you guys to buy a Chronograph (around $100 bucks) and actually test your defense ammo out of your real life carry gun. I think the results will amaze and enlighten you. It has changed my opinions - that's for sure! Nothing like testing for yourself to verify.

Has anyone else chronographed the new HTP load? I still want to believe the old FBI load is back!

Thanks for all the work and data on the new Remington "FBI" load.

If that is all the fps it gets out of a long six inch barrel, I think I will pass on putting this reduced loading in my 2" snub nose for any SD use.

I have to get 968 fps in my six inch, in order for the bullet to qualify for testing in my snub nose at a so called +P FBI loading.

I do have one load with a faster powder at 905 fps that just squeaks by in the 800 plus range.

I would guess that they dropped around .3 to .5 grs of powder on the new loads, in order to keep making a profit.

These soft bullets do well in plain gel...........just wonder what the slower fps would turn up in the 4 layer denim test?

Good shooting

Hello, Ed. As a rule, the FBI load tends to exhibit sub-optimal expansion from snub length barrels when fired through four layers of 16 oz. unstarched denim. Using Remington's version as an example, when this phenomenon happens the hollowpoint cavity flares out just enough to transform the bullet into a full wadcutter.

Regarding bare gel testing, I've seen photos of the harder alloyed Winchester version fired from snub and service length barrels into wet newsprint, and the differences between the recovered bullets were staggering. Reduced velocities from the snub caused them to "bugle" out to a diameter just slightly larger than a full wadcutter. Why do I bring this up? Anecdotal stories suggest that the new HTP LSWCHP alloy is not as soft as the former Express version. If that's truly the case, then it's possible that the new HTP load cannot be relied upon to expand when fired out of barrels of 2" even when intermediate barriers like heavy cloth/denim are absent.

Who the heck puts "four layers of 16 oz. unstarched denim" across their chest just in case they get shot with the FBI Load? That is not a real world test and we are not the FBI! If the bullet expands to a full wadcutter diameter that's just fine with me. I'm sure 2 or 3 full wadcutters will convince the bad-guy they don't want 2 or 3 more. (and don't give me that bunk about the hopped-up crack-head either)

The search for the "perfect bullet" is institutional and also very good for the ammo companies. In the real world when someone gets shot they don't want to be shot again, even when shot with a less than perfect bullet.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

ArchAngel,

Oh, don't worry. I've used and trusted the FBI load ever since I "got serious" about .38 Special defense loads. I don't take the IWBA 4-layer test for "gospel," it just is what it is. Even "Saint Fackler" himself recommended full wadcutters for snubs back when reliably expanding bullets at reduced velocities were a rarity.

The 4-layer denim test was the brainchild of a rocket scientist with a bee in his bonnet that thought the FBI's heavy clothing protocol wasn't "good enough." I'm not joking. Dr. Duncan MacPherson worked for NASA before delving into the world of terminal ballistics and laying the underpinnings of what would become the IWBA.

Anyway, FWIW, the IWBA has long gone the way of Disco, and those "stuffy Feebs" still use their "inferior" heavy clothing protocol to this day. Go figure.

I don't know where one would even find 16-ounce denim; but I have a hunch wearing four layers of it would be a fashion faux pas for most street thug types. Sort of like wearing a holster.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Which raises the question: If an attacker was wrapped like a denim tamale, would they even be able to move?