Steel case (Wolf, TulAmmo)

[Pinger5.56]

Hello, I decided to ask Smith&Wesson about steel case ammo and if it was safe to shoot in my M&P15 sport. Well they told me flat out not to shoot it. Also they said that if the rifle would break because of the use of Steel case ammo or even using steel case ammo it completely void out the warranty of the rifle. I have not shot any through mine at all, just Winchester 5.56 and PMC .223.

I got as a gift like 500rds, I have sold all of the except 60 that I forgot I had in 2 of my mags. Not sure what I am going to do with it. I do not want to void my warranty and also if it will mess up my rifle not going to shoot it. I get that PMC brass .223 for 9.50/box of 20 at my local gun store, the Wolf is $1.00 cheaper, I can live with a buck without the worry of destroying my rifle.

I also have a Bersa Thunder9Pro HC and I ask Bersa the same ?, got the same answer in return. They only handgun I own that can fire Steel case ammo is my old Star BM 9mm handgun. I know a lot of people have tried and used steel in both there AR's and handguns with on issues, but I am not one to go against what the manufacture recommends for my firearm. I am no gunsmith, but know enough to shoot and clean, repair minor problems. If Smith&Wesson and Bersa both Say no then I will believe they are out for my best safety.

[chief38]

I do shoot Wolf .30 Carbine steel cased ammo from my Carbine and it does beat up the extractor to the point where I replace it every 1000 - 1200 rounds. The extractors cost me $5 bucks each and I save at least $15 bucks per 50 rounds (over Brass cased ammo), so I don't mind replacing it every so often.

I recently scored some LCA Surplus (Military Brass) ammo from the CMP and that stuff is GREAT! Still have at least 2K rounds of the Wolf to shoot up though. Aside form the extractor being prematurely worn, I see no other ill effects from the Steel ammo.

Just as an aside........ I chronographed the Wolf ammo recently after noticing it to be a bit wimpy. It fell 100 fps short of the standard 1990 fps spec. from the Military. Still functions decently and does not jam so I don't really mind - only shooting holes in paper targets. I have also tried Tula and find it NOT as good as the Wolf. The Wolf is slicker and does not jam.

I suppose Smith telling you to NOT use it in your gun and voiding the Warranty might want to make you thing about swapping it with someone. They would know better than me.

[bhayles]

I just hung up the phone with S&W asking about this specific topic...steel case 5.56/223 in my M&P Sport. The results of that call:

1. Most important, use of steel cased ammo DOES NOT void the warranty.

2. S&W reccomends against using steel cased ammo becaause of what Chief38 mentions above...it can damage the extractor.

3. Given the savings in ammo cost, it would save money on the Sport, just like on Chied38's .30 carbine, to keep shooting steel cased ammo and have a spare extractor on hand "just in case". That is currently not possible, at least from Smith. Due to the gun's polularity 100% of all bolt related parts are being kept in-house in order to meet production demands. Spare bolt parts, or an entire spare BCG, must be obtained aftermarket at least for now.

[cyphertext]

If it wears the extractor, big deal... $5 gets you a new one and you don't have to get it from S&W... they don't make them themselves.

The steel cased ammo also uses a bimetal jacket that, in some tests online, has increased barrel wear, cutting barrel life by half. Again, with the cost savings of steel cased ammo vs. brass cased, you can afford to replace the barrel. A barrel and an extractor are wear items anyway.

The only issue I see is if you have a Sport, a 15T, a MOE Mid, or a VTAC II, with the 1:8 twist, 5R rifled barrels. I don't know how easy it would be to obtain one of these for replacement. I'll worry about it once I shoot this barrel out.

[bhayles]

Originally Posted by cyphertext

The only issue I see is if you have a Sport, a 15T, a MOE Mid, or a VTAC II, with the 1:8 twist, 5R rifled barrels. I don't know how easy it would be to obtain one of these for replacement. I'll worry about it once I shoot this barrel out.

Current Sport production has a 1:9 twist.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by bhayles

Current Sport production has a 1:9 twist.

I am aware of that. But the older models have the 1:8 twist... Notice I said if you have one with the 1:8 twist. If I had a 1:9 twist barrel, I would shoot it and not even think twice. Shoot it out and replace it with a 1:7 chrome lined or melonited barrel down the road.

[Arik]

You won't destroy anything. I mainly shoot steel case in all my guns. Everything from modern to old German guns. Nothing ever broke. The steel case is soft it's not some super hardened tungsten. If your extractor breaks from that there was a problem with the extractor.

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[Arik]

Dt
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[tectrry]

I've put about 1000 rounds of Tula steel cased through my Sport since February and have not had a single problem. You don't have to pay .30/round for it though. If you look hard enough you can find it for .25 (about .27 to the door when you add shipping). I'll put the new extractor and new barrel on it like Cyphertext suggested. This is just an inexpensive rifle that I plan to shoot every week. Some day I'll build one with all the precision parts in it (or just an upper), but my Sport will probably have 10,000 rounds through it by then (probably mostly steel cased).

[Harrison]

I have put thousands of rounds of steel cased/bimetal bullet ammo through my Armalite M4. No problem. During WWII the Germans shot many millions of rounds of steel case ammo through their machine guns. The only problem was a bit of rust on some cases. The U.S. issued some steel cased 45 acp during the war. No problems.

[Pinger5.56]

Originally Posted by bhayles

I just hung up the phone with S&W asking about this specific topic...steel case 5.56/223 in my M&P Sport. The results of that call:

1. Most important, use of steel cased ammo DOES NOT void the warranty.

2. S&W reccomends against using steel cased ammo becaause of what Chief38 mentions above...it can damage the extractor.

3. Given the savings in ammo cost, it would save money on the Sport, just like on Chied38's .30 carbine, to keep shooting steel cased ammo and have a spare extractor on hand "just in case". That is currently not possible, at least from Smith. Due to the gun's polularity 100% of all bolt related parts are being kept in-house in order to meet production demands. Spare bolt parts, or an entire spare BCG, must be obtained aftermarket at least for now.

The email I received back from them was completely different. They said not to use steel and it would void out my warranty. Not sure your answer was different because You called and I emailed them. If I can find the email I will post it in here from S&W what there answer back about steel case ammo.

[BurgerBoy]

I shoot steel case ammo in my Bersa all the time and I have never had any problems with it.

[W.E.G.]

Originally Posted by BurgerBoy

I shoot steel case ammo in my Bersa all the time and I have never had any problems with it.

Comparing low-pressure autopistol rounds to high-pressure bottleneck rifle rounds is the worst sort of apples-and-oranges comparison.

Steel-case ammo in AR-type rifles is bad news most of the time.
Some will tolerate it for a while. Most will not.

[bhayles]

Originally Posted by Pinger5.56

Not sure your answer was different because You called and I emailed them.

I emailed rather than called again last Friday and got a rather grey answer this time.

"Shooting steel cased ammo can void your warranty."

That is a BS answer. It either does or it doesn't, right? So I called again today to find out the real, non ambiuous answer. The result:

Shooting steel cased ammo does not void your warranty, period, end of discussion, as far as it being steel cased.. ANY ammo, steel cased or brass of made from gummy bears CAN void a warranty for other reasons, like reloads being way, way too hot.

I asked about my email sayingf steel cased ammo can void the warranty. I was asked who specifically sent the email. When I gave the name he chuckled and said the guy was a contractor who does nothing but reply to emails and not a S&W employee, and, specifically, that he was wrong, probably doing the CYA thing.

So...bottom line...shooting steel cased will NOT void your warranty simply because its steel cased.

[Pinger5.56]

Originally Posted by bhayles

I emailed rather than called again last Friday and got a rather grey answer this time.

"Shooting steel cased ammo can void your warranty."

That is a BS answer. It either does or it doesn't, right? So I called again today to find out the real, non ambiuous answer. The result:

Shooting steel cased ammo does not void your warranty, period, end of discussion, as far as it being steel cased.. ANY ammo, steel cased or brass of made from gummy bears CAN void a warranty for other reasons, like reloads being way, way too hot.

I asked about my email sayingf steel cased ammo can void the warranty. I was asked who specifically sent the email. When I gave the name he chuckled and said the guy was a contractor who does nothing but reply to emails and not a S&W employee, and, specifically, that he was wrong, probably doing the CYA thing.

So...bottom line...shooting steel cased will NOT void your warranty simply because its steel cased.

The email I got in return was straight from the gunsmith shop where they repaired my SD9VE so not sure, Also the email I got from Bersa about not shooting steel was from all 3 of there gunsmith repair facility in the USA. So not sure who you are getting you emails from. I am going to call them this week and ask also I have some questions about my M&P15 sports extractor upgrades.

[Dezfan]

With the saving you get shooting steel cased ammo, you can buy multiple extractors, several barrels, and still be money ahead.

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally Posted by Pinger5.56

I got as a gift like 500rds, I have sold all of the except 60 that I forgot I had in 2 of my mags. Not sure what I am going to do with it. I do not want to void my warranty and also if it will mess up my rifle not going to shoot it.

One question, how in the world is S&W going to know you shot Steel cased ammo unless you tell them? Any ammo that is within SAAMI or CIP specs is supposed to be safe in all guns in good operating condition.

[RussellD]

Good read on brass case vs. steel can be found at the lucky gunner dot com. Click on the tab for labs.

[cyphertext]

Originally Posted by Pinger5.56

The email I got in return was straight from the gunsmith shop where they repaired my SD9VE so not sure, Also the email I got from Bersa about not shooting steel was from all 3 of there gunsmith repair facility in the USA. So not sure who you are getting you emails from. I am going to call them this week and ask also I have some questions about my M&P15 sports extractor upgrades.

Steel cased alone, as stated, does not void your warranty. Hornady makes steel cased ammo. Is S&W going to void a warranty because you used Hornady ammo?

The bi-metal jacket can increase barrel wear, but barrel wear is not going to be covered under warranty anyway. S&W is not going to turn you away over a broken extractor, but why would you send the rifle to them for that anyway?

[bhayles]

Originally Posted by RussellD

Good read on brass case vs. steel can be found at the lucky gunner dot com.

Nice to know. I've read their 5.56 vs .223 article, but missed the brass vs steel one. Thanks.

[BlueOvalBandit]

Don't take Lucky Gunner's test as gospel. Take it for what it is, a worst case torture test. If you're going to do mag dumps all day long for 10k rounds, then yeah you can expect those results. High temp will make a huge difference since it softens the metal and they got them HOT. If you shoot normally your rifle will last longer than the tests indicate, if your gun will even run it in the first place.

Also their extractor comparison is garbage, what is the reference datum to compare wear to? They did not do a before and after. Then just look at the non wear surfaces and lo and behold they're different! Which then invalidates the cross comparison between them.

If you want to know how steel on steel wears, go dig up a tribology study Shell did and bypass most of the stuff on the interwebs.

I get a kick out of the bimetal jacket deal, people who blast it will then happily buy and shoot US made M80 Ball ammunition which is often bimetal as well.

[josboy]

Originally Posted by Harrison

I have put thousands of rounds of steel cased/bimetal bullet ammo through my Armalite M4. No problem. During WWII the Germans shot many millions of rounds of steel case ammo through their machine guns. The only problem was a bit of rust on some cases. The U.S. issued some steel cased 45 acp during the war. No problems.

Just a note, I have a cache (probably a lifetime supply) of WWII .45acp military issue rounds. Most are brass and a few hundred steel. They were issued at about the same time and kept together under almost ideal conditions (dry, air conditioned and heated - depending on the season). The brass stuff continues to shoot perfectly. I sometime mix some with comparable spec new stuff and I can't tell the difference. On the steel stuff the experience is different - some won't fire and the rest shoot inconsistently (some perfect and some weak in the knees). I've examined what I've loaded my mags with and they are all clean - no signs of corrosion and are bright.

[Rick_A]

If steel case ammo causes an issue and S&W are aware of that fact don't expect a warranty repair.

Most of the Russian steel stuff has a funky pressure curve that some guns don't like. It also runs dirtier than anything else I've come across. The concerns of accelerated wear are a bit overblown.

Every AR manufacturer I've come across recommends not to shoot steel case and it's largely for functional issues and not because it actually harms the firearm. The carbine gas, sbr, and pistol length guns are the most problematic. I imagine they'd have a nightmare tuning guns to run the stuff under warranty.

I run steel as a function test ammo. I've found that if a gun runs Wolf or TulAmmo it'll run anything.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Just for sake of discussion, lets pretend that shooting steel case would void the warranty on your Sport. So what would be the solution to that? Pay $75/1000 extra for brass with the notion of preserving the warranty on a $500 rifle? And since it is a modular rifle anything can be replaced by the owner relatively cheap from a zillion suppliers. So after a couple thousand rounds of brass you've already paid for a new BCG or most of a new barrel. And steel case ain't gonna break anything anyway.

Now if you just don't want to shoot steel case that's another matter, and some guys just don't want to... whatever. But if you do want to shoot steel to save money it makes no sense not to.