I recently looked at a 38/44 Outdoorsman and the seller talked about the 38/44 round made for it. I could not recall reading of it and have never seen any first hand. I showed my ignorance by expressing doubts. I went about reading more closely in the SCSW which of course mentioned the round.

Could some one tell me what this round is with comparisons to the .38 special and the .357 magnum beyond what is published in the book (N Frame .38)? Cartridges of the World does not seem to address this round in a meaningful way.

Thanks.

Way back in the day, S&W came out with the 38/44 revolver. This was on the N frame and was available in .38 special and .44 special. Typically the serial numbers are a S series. I believe ther was a 38/44 outdoorsman version with fixed sights and a 38/44 target version with the narrow rib and adjustable sights.

The 38/44 if memory serves me, was the platform Elmer Keith used in developing the .357 mag based on his old load of 13.5 grains of 2400 under a 173 grain bullet in a .38 special case. (kind of stiff for the .38 special as Elmer was known to have blown up a gun or two in load development)

I have a 38/44 target version at home that my father had used as his target revolver when he started shooting for the Army AMU back in the '50's. Nice gun but big for the .38 special cartridge. My dad had a 38/44 target in .44 special and had the barrel cut down to 5" with the RR front and WO rear with TH and TT. Really nice piece - wish he still had it.

The round was developed between 1929 and 1930 for the 38/44 Heavy Duty which came out in April of 1930. Figure 1100 to 1150 FPS with a 158 depending on the barrel lengths. I have shot original 38/44 ammo and even though it was quite old (1940's vintage) with a 158 it did 1121 fps out of a 6.5" 1079 out of a 5" and 1010 out of a 4" 38/44.

The case is the same as a 38 S&W Special or a 38 Special is it is more commonly called.

It is not commercially available as a 38/44 since the pressures are way beyond what 38 specials can take today.

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SWCA 1646

Great photo of what must be some rare ammo.

Forum poster 1Aspenhill is the resident expert on the Heavy Duty (fixed sight) revolver. He has a collection that defies belief. The .38-44 round developed for this gun was a real humdinger as an earlier poster indicated with his chronograph. I have most of a box of the Remington load: a 158gr LRN bullet with the initials HV on the case head.

It was not recommended for extended use in K-frames, but when police officers in NYC and elsewhere began to be assaulted and murdered in the late 60s and early 70s, some officers, correctly believing themselves to be undergunned, quietly went to these loads for the extra punch they afforded. Remember, these developments preceded the introduction of HP ammo.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I think HP bullets were offered as far back as the 1930's in some calibers. I think Elmer Keith mentioned them, but he felt they didn't perform well. Memory is hazy here but think there may have been a HP load in 38 Super. ??

But GOOD HP ammo dates from the 1960's and later.

I read a book by a former Waffen SS officer who said that on the Russian front, his orderly had loaded his MP-40 with "exploding" bullets. I think it may have been an imperfect translation of the German word for "expanding" bullets. If so, they had them then in Europe.

True .38-44 ammo is quite a bit hotter than MOST current Plus P. But Buffalo Bore and others make some similar stuff, with better bullets.

In the mid-1960's, our USAF armorer bought some .38 Hi-Velocity ammo off base, due to shortages and fears that the weak M-41 ball round wouldn't stop an opponent well. It was full jacketed, to comply with the Hague Accords. I THINK that was a .38-44 loading. If so, the ammo was then still being made. I haven't seen any since, but that may be due to local dealers not stocking any.

I suspect that that Buffalo Bore stuff is a really good round for K-frame .357's. If I actually owned a real .38-44, it's what I'd use for defense. I'd cheerfully shoot an average deer to at least 25 yards with it, given a clear shot at the vitals on a standing animal. I think that'd result in venison for dinner. That might also penetrate and kill an alligator or a big Burmese python in Florida. I don't think it's legal, but if the reptile is trying to get hold of you or a companion... It ought to be a good, hot round for anyone using a .38 for outdoors defense.

I hope so as I've loaded all my ready revolvers with the Buffalo Bore 38/44 +P ammo. At a $1.75 per round I've only shot 20 rounds of it.

I also understand that 12grs - 12.5grs of 2400 with a standard primer are close to the equal of the old factory 34/44 load.

Thanks for citing my post. You may be right on all scores! I think there was a .38 Super round with other than a FMJ head. Don't know about such a bullet on .38-44.

Your Air Force story holds water. W-W did produce a high-speed FMJ in .38 Spl (advertised as being for highway patrol work IIRC) but I don't recall the bullet weight. I recall a pointed 150gr high speed, believe it was FMJ.

Early handgun HPs were tough and did not open easily. The Norma .357 JHP was one. R-P made one of the first JSPs in .357 but don't know how it performed. More for hunting than police/SD work. Mid-60s Super Vel were the first factory JHPs that would open up.

R-P did produce .38-44 into the 80s: I had a 1/2 box with LRN that were marked +P but they were nothing like the original planet wreckers!

Thanks for the trip down Memory Lane.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

The bullets the AF man bought were 150 grain FMJ RN.

Bear in mind the 38/44 doesn't compare to the 38 Special, it IS a 38 Special. It is a heavily loaded 38 Special. I have loaded 158 lead bullets to a clocked 1100 from a 4" revolver and this likely is close to what the factory put out. The advertised 1125-1150 probably came from a 6" test barrel.

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No life story has happy end.

1940's vintage 38/44 158 grn MRN (Metal Round Nose) ammo did 1121 FPS on a 12 shot string out of a 6.5" 38/44 Heavy Duty in my testing.

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SWCA 1646

Double Tap also sells a +P .38 Special 158 grain SWC that's good for a 1000 fps from a 4" barrel.

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I believe in the wadcutter.

Hot Double Tap, Buffalo bore, Cor-bon or similar 38 +P all approach 38/44 power levels. Some day I will buy a pressure barrel setup and figure out how much pressure they are really doing and figure out how to duplicate it. In the mean time I just keep my 38/44 loads in 38/44's and out of 38 specials!

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SWCA 1646

I just love this topic! Was lucky enough to find an original Remington Dogbone box at a gun show containing all three varieties- LRN, Metal Point, and Metal Round Nose; someone had sorted through Grandpa's stuff up in a closet, probably. Fired off a LRN in a Model 19 snub as a test- got my attention real fast! Too precious to shoot- really historic stuff!!

I shot some old Western Super-X 150 gr. RNL Lubaloy, High Velocity .38 Special loads out of a 5" HD and my chronograph said 1035 FPS.

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S&WCA #2815
Gun Scribe

Peter M. Eick and LaVista Bill deserve thanks for posting their chronograph results. I was very glad to see those.

It is because of such ammo and the hotter rounds from BB and Double Tap, etc. that I caution about firing plus P ammo at random out of older .38's on the K and J frames. I am especially concerned that someone may fire hot ammo in a M&P made before they began heat treating cylinders.

I realize that Saxon Pig and I have been at odds over this issue for years. Not all high velocity .38 ammo is really loaded to the specs that he presents, typically a 125 grain bullet at a nominal 950 FPS and sometimes not achieving even that. But I do believe that he has successfully fired that milder ammo from his five-inch Frankensmith. (A re-barreled M&P from the 1940's.) My concern is that high velocity loads do increase wear on the gun over time and that this especially affects older guns made of softer steels. And really hot ammo should not be fired indiscriminately in older guns, esp. those not heat treated.

Not knowing how ammo was stored may also be a factor. Some may have been in hot places where pressures may have been affected. It is with these issues in mind that I have posted here what I have over the years. I hope that SP and others who've fired modern Plus P in older guns understand this. I'm not challenging what they've posted. I just don't think it's the whole story re hot .38 ammo.

Oh thanks: I think that's the same stuff that our unit armorer bought off base in Denver in the mid-1960's. We were short of .38 ammo due, I guess, to the Viet war, and he probably also wanted a hotter load. Most of us armed with revolvers at that USAF base carried Victory Models scrounged from the Navy.
Only senior NCO's and officers got Combat Masterpieces then, at that base.

But we qualified with wadcutters, so I never fired any of that Hi-Velocity ammo. I don't think it'd have blown a cylinder, but frequent use would have caused such things as premature cylinder endshake, etc. That wouldn't have bothered me if I'd had to shoot a spy at the Air Intelligence School or trying to penetrate the Nuclear Weapons School or attacking our line aircraft or a drunk coming at me with a knife in family quarters or a club. I was really very worried that the normal M-41 ammo would fail in such circumstances. I often carried a .45 auto for that reason.

Texas Star,

I know this is bordering on a reloading post but I will tell you my long term plan. I am starting to think about retirement and what I will do in my retirement years. I have decided that I want to either write my own reloading analysis book or a series of books studying the actual pressure of ammo. I plan on buying an actual pressure barrel and am currently looking for some land here in Texas to set up my own reloading/pressure business. It turns out just up the road in College Station, Bill Wiseman & Company sells commercial grade pressure barrels and piezo sensors/block actions for just this purpose. Right now I am still learning about it but we are looking in the range of $100K to get really decked out in a few calibers and get the game going. Realistically I am 3 to 4 years out but I may buy the pressure barrel and vise early and start playing with it.

Anyway, back on the 38/44. I want to test the 38 special to 38/44 pressure levels and all of the old classic loads and find out how much pressure "really" commercial ammo is churning up and then the boutique shops like Buffalo Bore and then go back to like Speer 8 and what were there loads churning up.

I suspect that the 38/44's are a bit Hotter than we think while the commercial ammo is a lot weaker than SAAMI specs.

My next step (besides searching for land with a Realtor) is to run up to Wiseman's shop and just talk to him about what I need to buy. Maybe I will do that after the 4th weekend as I have some time off work.

So sorry for the sidetrack and if the admins think this is out of place go ahead and delete it. I just find the 38/44 round a fascinating study in how historical rounds have been changed over time to our current situation today.

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SWCA 1646

For God's sake, don't fire any of the original 38/44 ammo! It is now over $250.00 a box on the collector's market. I finally got a box, just for photographic purposes!

medxam

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Doc Garrett
Dead Man's Doctor

Too late, Doc. About ten years ago I bought four full boxes of Remington 38/44s for twenty bucks. All I have left out of that thousand dollars of ammo is about 200 reloadable cartridge cases.

Oh, well. That's the story of my life.

$250 is a small investment in the knowledge of what the ammo really was. I have 38/44 ammo that looks to have been stored well that is saved just for this experiment. I also have original 357 Magnum ammo for a similar experiment. The goal is to learn and for that some ammo must be shot.

OFT II, Please tell the tale!

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SWCA 1646

Peter, a friend and neighbor who was a WWII vet was selling off a lot of his shooting equipment. I bought several pounds of powder, an old Herter's spotting scope and some ammunition. Among the ammo was some oldies such as Remington 8mm Lebel, a couple of boxes of 22 LessSmoke and the four boxes of 38/44. I'm old enough to remember when the 38/44 High Speed ammo was available on the shelf at most stores so it didn't bother me in the least to shoot it. It appeared to be 1950 to 1960 vintage.

Don't sweat it! It's only ammo. Shoot it if it pleases you to do so. You bought 4 boxes of great ammo for an incredible price and you enjoyed yourself shooting it. Seems to me you came out ahead. This is how I look at things.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
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Best $1.80 I ever spent!

kasskop49,
It was neat to see you mention HV rounds! When I was a brand new Deputy Sheriff for the County of Los Angeles, we were issued our duty ammo which was Remington 38 special 125 grain Core-Loct "HV" that had just begun to be issued. Previous issue was the yellow box "Super-Vel" rounds.

I remember shooting the duty ammo which was loud and steaming hot. They were the first of the +p rounds as I recall. Later the case heads were changed to +p+. we used that ammo for as long as I can remember. By the time that the Dept went to the Beretta, I had moved to Oregon and the agency I was employed by, Roseburg, was issuing the Smith and Wesson 158 grain soft point +p in 38 spl. Seeing that term brings back great memories....

I still have some of those original 1969-70ish 125gr R-P .38 Spl JHP. Scalloped head with a narrow and deep HP. The 158gr load was similar in make-up. Both seemed to be loaded with a large charge of slow-burning powder. Unburned granules would fall from the case after firing.

Had about 1/2 box of the 158 JHPs, a gift from a NYPD cop who carried it against regs during the cop shooting period of the early 1970s. I fired it in a 16" bbl Rossi lever carbine: even from this long (for a HG round) bbl, there was a huge muzzle flash.

Also have some boxes of the original .38 WW 158gr LHP (stock # 38SPD) and SWC (38WCP) rounds from before the +P stamping. Hot stuff, a true 1000 fps in 4". Lotta guys on this forum would like to get their hands on that ammo, I bet.

Let me stop. It's after midnight and I can talk ammo for hours. Appreciate you recognizing and enjoying my post! Stay safe, partner.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

With regard to the early W-W 158 grain lead SWCHP ammo, boxes were marked MS. I had to call the East Alton Winchester ammo factory to learn that the letters meant Maximum Service. This was about 1972.

I was deliriously happy to see that load from a major factory.

Chuck Hawks has this to say.

John Taffin continues,

Years ago Now, I got my hands on a partial box of Remington 38-44.
I believe it had round nose lead bullets.
I shot it all in a 357.
Even though it was already kind of oddball ammo, I guess I never really thought that it might be collectible. And worth a lot of money!

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

When I started this thread three weeks ago I was trying to expand my limited knowledge on this round. My knowledge level was ZERO. What followed was a real education. Thanks to everyone who contributed here. This website is really incredible.

I agree. It was fun, no back-biting. The .38-44 version of the .38 Spl. was a very interesting cartridge with a great deal of untold history. It was probably in many places it should not have been, if you re-read my above post #5. A professional's round.

Try to obtain, or handle, an original Heavy Duty revolver. You will find the double action to be smooth as silk just as it came from the plant, with no 'smithing.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

A few months ago I managed to pick up a very nice Pre-Model 20 Heavy Duty. You are absolutely correct. It is a real dream to shoot!

I wish I grabbed the Outdoorsman but the money just was not right.

If you want to know what the original 38/44 is like, then get the Buffalo Bore "Outdoorsman" load. They might even be a tad hotter than the original. Remember, however, that as hot as the 38/44 load is/was, it was not as hot as the original .357 Magnum. The Buffalo Bore "Outdoorsman" load works fine in any quality 38 Special of reputable make in proper working order. It is not be pleasant in a J frame, but it is by no means unsafe. Colt certified its Police Positive and Detective Special for 38/44 back in the 1930s, and when the original 2 inch M&P was introduced prior to WWII, it also was advertised by the factory as being ok with 38/44 for anti-personnel use. One of S&W's famous distributors, Evaluators Ltd. of Quantico (Triangle), Virginia, advertised use of 38/44 with the Combat Masterpiece for combat work. It is harder on the gun, but in no sense dangerous. Your pocket book will give out before your gun does.

I would agree with your assessment. If you don't reload, Buffalo Bore is the way to go. If you do reload, Speer 8 will get you close but take it slow and use a bunch of horse sense as you are pushing the limits. Especially now that 4756 is going away and it was/is the "cat's meow" for 38/44 reloaders.

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SWCA 1646

Peter do you think the increased velocity of coated bullets such as Bayou would make it easier/safer for the reloader to duplicate the old .38/44 loads?

I look forward to reading more about your pressure testing work.

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The American dream is alive

I really don't know. I have never worked with coated bullets so you are in new territory.

I would work up loads over a chrono and mike the casing head to see if I could detect pressure signs if I were to try working with them.

Good luck.

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SWCA 1646

38/44 means that the gun is a .38 special on a .44 frame. They are all .38s, a .44 is just that, a .44. The fixed sight guns are called Heavy Duty, and the adjustable sight guns are Outdoorsman. The post war Ourdoorsman has a ribbed barrel, the pre-war doesn't. I may recall a rumor or allegation that a couple of pre-wars might have had RM ribbed barrels, but I'm fuzzy on that. I'm no expert, for sure. I do know I love 'em.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

Yes there are a very few post war transitional 38/44 Outdoorsman's with RM barrels. I have seen pictures, never seen one in person but I would buy it on the spot if I did.

I shot 500 rounds of 38/44 (reloads) today. Nothing like banging away with a 38/44 in my book.

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SWCA 1646

I picked these up at the local gun show last fall. The HD came from a dealer and the ammo came off a table full of old ammo.

Very nice. I see someone worked the front sight for a better sight picture. I bet it shoots well.

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SWCA 1646

Thank you, Peter. The front sight is the only modification, and it was nicely done. Stocks number to the gun.

My 1959-shipped Outdoorsman was the third I had owned, but never had a HD before, and the price was right, so the HD came home.

The only loads I have put through the Heavy Duty are a 130 grain wadcutter, which of course, shoots low. But, it is accurate and lots of fun to shoot.