What 38 Special factory ammo is loaded with bullets that will actually expand when fired from a 2" snubby?

Most, if not all, of the ballistics gel tests on YouTube show little or no expansion from a 2" barrel.

Or are full wadcutters the way to go?

Speer gold dot short barrel

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/short_brl.aspx

Speer Gold Dot short barrel as mentioned above works well.

Remington Golden Saber worked well in this Gel and denim test by Tnoutdoors9. Good penetration and expansion within the FBI protocol.

.38 Special +P Remington Golden Saber Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

and this one:

38 Special +P 125 grain Golden Saber Ballistic Gel Test - YouTube

All three of those look good, and should work well in my Ruger LCR.

But I was looking for a 38 Special standard special round for my M37 which isn't +P rated. I suppose the 37 would work with +P, but with all the cracked frames you see with old M37's I would rather use the standard pressure ammo.

I use a standard pressure handload with a cast wad cutter in my 37.
Velocity runs about 820 fps out of the 37, much better than factory
target loads.

FBI LOAD
LSWCHP 158 grain.


http://www.snubnose.info/docs/snubby_ballistics.htm

New Page 2

__________________
Have a blessed day ,
Bull

I favor the Gold Dots, but finding and affording them is another matter. Though the 135s are especially designed for short barrels, I think any Gold Dot is good if given decent velocity.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The Speer Gold Dot is typically a robust expander. The Remington iteration of the FBI load also expands well provided the dreaded 4 layers of denim aren't involved.

Ain't THAT the truth... Especially the "affording" part.

Here's a speer gold dot 125 grain shot from a 642 into water jugs. Not sure how accurate the test is though compared to ballistics gel. I also loaded some hard cast 148 grain wadcutters to full power to use in my snub 38's too.

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Jim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0M4qPSrc00

And it's not even the +P version.

FWITW, Here's what I use; 2" - 3" Bbl = Speer 135 GDHP+P 4" Bbl = Buffalo Bore 158 LSWC-HP+P ( They ARE full power loads, so beware ) There are many "decent" .38 Spl. loads available, but I don't think the above 2 loads can be beat for overall use. The BB loads can be a handfull, so I only use them in my 4" K frames. CCI / Speer (ATK) spent a good amount of money for R&D on their 135 loads, primarily at the behest of the NYPD & a few other large LE agencies that still issue, and or authorize the .38 Spl. caliber. The 135+P is also nice due to it's weight, as it's close enough to shoot to the sights of many fixed sight .38's. Most fixed .38's these days are factory set for either 125 or 158 grain heads, so the 135 is just right for both. As I said before, if you prefer, or have good results with other loads, stick with them, but the 2 above loads shouldn't let you down.

dpast32

The ONLY non-+P ammo that works that I know of is the.......
Hornady ammo.

I have a 125gr G Dot that never even started to open up out of my M49 snub nose into 4 jugs of water and came to rest at the partical board behind them at a distance of 10 feet for the first bottle.

+P speeds are needed to help get expansion started out of a snub nose, if you can use them.

I don't like 800 fps.......... 850 fps is better and I would like 900 fps with the 125gr if possible. I believe that is the area of the new Remington home defense ammo.

Good to know. I only fired that above one and no others into jugs. I might have to reevaluate my defense loads. Since it's so hard to find the GDSB I might just stick with my old fashioned full power hard cast wadcutters for now.

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Jim

The trouble with that video is they don't say what gun they used or the velocity.

There are other videos with Critical Defense where the author is using a 2" snubby where neither the 110 38 sp or the 110 38 sp+p expand at all.

I believe many of these 38 special (without the P) self defense rounds expand just find with a 4" barrel, but don't expand with a 2". Gold dot seems to be an exception, however.

I found some of the 135 grain Gold Dot 38+P at $27 per box of 50. So I ordered four boxes.

I figured that would give me enough to practice with it before using it for carry.

It seems more reasonably priced that BB or other SD ammo.

Dave

.38 special, 148 gr, DEWC come out "expanded".....

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There's nowt so queer as folk

On YouTube, the text below the video says "test revolver was the Taurus model 605 in .38/.357 with 2 inch barrel".

Four layers of denim is to introduce a worse case scenario to the round. Not to simulate four layers of denim on a human.


Here is some good info:

BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp

Cliffnotes:

OK, I couldn't see that when I clicked the link in your post.

It makes sense they would tell you the type of gun they used somewhere.

Here is another test of the 110 gr Critical Defense that shows no expansion at all:

Hornady Critical Defense 38 Special 110 Grain FTX - YouTube

Not sure what to make of conflicting results like this.

Dave

My link was posted by an individual who does controlled testing for law enforcement and military: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf


They don't do one test, they do a minimum of five shots per test to get a result. They also use certified and controlled gel for their test medium. The youtube video is a backyard tester.

Just saying.

The 125gr Gold Dot for the 38 or 357 is a great bullet design......
Just that its copper jacket is a little heavier than the 110 or 135gr bullets and was designed for higher speeds.

Out of a 3" it might be a fine load.......... I did not want you to think I was bad mouthing it. Heck, the next eight might have expanded...
I ran out of water jugs to do any more testing, that day......
hope I did not ruffle any feathers.

No feathers ruffled here.

In fact, I don't even have feathers.

I bought some of the 135 gr Gold Dot short barrel +P and will use them for now.

I also bought a 100 rnd box of Remington UMC 125 grn 38 special+P at Wally World today figuring it would make low cost +p practice ammo.

I've been practicing with standard pressure Winchester 130 grn target ammo in my snubbies, but want to get some practice with +P before I carry it.

Dave

I use the Speer 135 gr SB plus P in my steel J frames and in my M66 snub. I would like to get some magnum versions to test for recoil. They are only medium velocity magnums, and should work well in the M66.
I use BB 150 gr hard cast non plus P wad cutters in my M442. About 850 FPS in 2 inch barrel. Due to their high velocity, these have more recoil than other standard 38 SPL.
Double Tap makes a 150 gr hard cast WC that gives about 750 FPS in the same 2 inch gun. I think target WC's are around 650 FPS in the same gun.
The target WC's are soft lead. I prefer hard cast because I think the sharp cutting edge is important. We are talking about a shearing action here. Like sharp broadheads on hunting arrows. I don't want any mushrooming, even if it increases the diameter slightly.
Even if the Speer SB bullets fail (don't expand), they have a larger meplat than some others, like the XTP's. Around 80% of caliber. The XTP's that I checked were about 65% of caliber. The edges on the Speer SB bullets are reasonably sharp for a HP.
I have a box of the Speer SB bullets, and load to plus P with A#5 for practice.
I also shoot a lot of 125 gr plated flat point bullets loads with A#5 for practice.
I am down to about two cylinders worth of the factory Speer for carry, and can't find any locally.

Best,
Rick

I've never been able to figure how the FBI figured that 4 layers of denim equates to "worst case scenario". What is a "worst case scenario"? How does 4 layers of denim replicate that? I'd like to know how the FBI came up with that whole idea.

Worse case scenario to me is multiple layers of leather as in biker attire.

The four layers is enough to plug the HP and cause it to fail.
With more of a barrier, it might be better if the bullet didn't expand.
Similar to a tough animal hide. Penetration becomes more important in these examples.

Best,
Rick

Factory loads it's Speer Gold Dot and or Remington Golden Saber for my .38's. Handloads I use Hornady XTP's.

The Nyclad 125 gr load will expand, if you can find some. There is a standard pressure version available. The bullets are dead soft lead.

Buffalo Bore has a standard pressure 125 gr JHP load also but I havent seen any tests for it.

A lot of us like Remington for the cost and quality but........

I did see a gel test where TWO Remington 125gr 38 specials
went all the way through TWO Gel blocks, one shot after another.

I would go with their new "Gold" SD bullet if I were to use their ammo. It did well in test that I have seen along with reports.

Seems like each company has its high quality SD loading.....
you just need to find it and see if it works for you.

Here is your answer, good read:

Why Four Layers of Denim Cloth?

Cliff notes:

Old School W-W 158 LHP was what I used when I had a M37 . Still my default .38spl load.

The 4-layer denim test was Dr. Duncan Macpherson's brainchild. The FBI has used and continues to use their "heavy clothing" protocol to this day.

Guess those stuffy feebs never saw the "wisdom" of the now defunct IWBA.

The Nyclad was getting a good reputation but it's use in LE was cut short by the scramble to switch to 9mm's and the disastrous 147 HP subsonic.

Some bullet casters are making something similar but with powder coating.

I'd put more interested in FBI's testing if they used common clothing likely to be worn by perps.

The FBI's ammo testing program is starting to remind me of the medical field. What's gospel today and absolute will be changed or dumped on it's head a few years down the road.

There's a saying we used in police hiring....past performance is the best predictor of future performance, not the structured testing.

Anyone shoot/test Buffalo Bore's 20D offering? I'm curious about the claimed 868 fps out of a 2" barrel using "Standard Pressure" that will not beat-up my "older/fragile/alloy" revolvers.

Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Ammo - 150 gr. Hard Cast Wad Cutter

I would not be afraid to use +p in a old 37 for SD, anybody's, after all, it'll just be a few shots. Practice, of course not. The pressure difference in standard vs plus p has been bandied about forever. I'd pack the plus p and think nothing more about it .

Well, FWIW, the "heavy clothing" test protocol involves draping the gel block with one layer of 48 TPI cotton t-shirt material, one layer of 80 TPI cotton shirt material, one layer of Malden Mills Polartec 200 fleece, and finally one layer of 14.4 oz. cotton denim. (Source: Hornady LE) This may vary a little between manufacturers, but I find that protocol to be somewhat more "realistic" than wrapping the end of a gel block like a denim tamale.

Of course, if you ask the IWBA bullet salesmen, their 4-layer denim test is "superior" to the former. Their words, not mine.

Ahhh...IWBA.

I would rather have a little longer barrel than a snub to get some of the 'iffiness' out of .38 special loads. 2-1/2" or 3" sounds good to me.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

You carry what you have and pray you don't have to use it. In too many jurisdictions, you can't carry anything and just pray...

There's one poster in similar threads who says he carries a 37 with factory wadcutter ammo. He says he can make rapid and repeat accurate shots out to... (I forget what distance).

This is not someone I would choose to mug.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

It'll even handle +P+ Treasury Load. But your hand might not handle it depending on the gun and grips. I got this box from a Fed buddy back in the later 80's. Only 5 cartridges have been fired. There's a painful reason for that, a S&W 37 with factory grips.

There is not much a person can do with a 15 oz. J frame.....
a Steel J frame at 21 oz. helps the recoil a little but a heavy
M10 or 14 at 36 oz. cuts the recoil by 66% !!

A lot depends on a persons accuracy, pain threshold on what is carried.
I developed loads for my M49 that I thought were Pleasant to shoot.......

However my daughter in law just acquired a new S&W +p rated
M442 or 642 at 15 oz. and the 135gr +P might be her maximum
load..........and we will test out the 110 and 125 Jhp +P speeds
to see how she handles them, since it kicks more than my M49.

This is going to be interesting..........Might have to go with second best or even that 148gr loading?

Ed,

I'd start with wadcutters, then 110 -> 125 -> 135 gr. +P loadings to see what she can handle. A nice set of grips that strike a balance between concealability and controllability also help tremendously with recoil management. Is she going to be shooting this with the S&W factory boot grips?

J-Framew & Hornady Crit Def Lite 38SPCL 90-gr FTX.jpg
Earlier this year I hurt my primary shooting hand and had to make some changes in gear and ammo. I have a Model 37 with LaserMax grips, and a 642.
A little research satisfied me that the Hornady Critical Defense Lite .38 Special 90-gr ammo would do what I needed. I was trained to "shoot until the threat stops," so any perceived shortcoming of that light bullet would be mitigated by multiple hits in my opinion. I read reports of ammo tests that confirmed the penetration and expansion of this bullet.
The 90-gr bullet seems to be offered only in their pink-tipped FTX version. Their usual "lite" load seems to be the 110-gr. I use that, too.
Muzzle velocity of the 90-gr from a 2" barrel is reported to be 1,200 fps. At 100 yards it is still over 900.

I fired some from the 642 into water and am satisfied by the expansion.

If you're squeamish about buying ammo in pink boxes, note that some proceeds of the sales go to fight breast cancer, so man-up, get a cigar to chew and go buy some.

No matter what the .38 Spcl. rd. one can find a denim/calibrated gel test of it failing to expand out of a snubby. Yes, all of them.................with the exception of one: Corbon DPX. The only problem is that due to cost & paucity of use there are few if any Real World Street results for that round. Nonetheless, based on the rigorous testing it has endured I would expect the same on the Street.