I found the following article interesting.

It gives a percentage of one shop "stops" where the BG broke off the attack after one shot in the torso. Shots in arms and legs eliminated from the data.

What makes this interesting, is it looks at results for "back up guns" meaning revolvers (or semi autos) with 2" or 3" barrels.

All results for 4 or more inch barrel guns not included.

The results were that 32 acp, 380 acp, 38 special, and 38 +p all gave about the same percentage of "stops" (as the author defines them).

The percentages were from about 65% to 70% for the best ammo types.

For 357 magnum out of a snub, however, the percentage went up to around 90% -- a significant improvement.

The best results for 38 special were +P versions of the old lead SWC HPs. This is probably due to most of the fancy new ammo types not expanding from a snub barrel.

Dave

<http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=4593>

This article is from 2004; I recall there was some criticism of it but I can't recall what or if it was valid. It would be interesting to see what current data there might be with micro .380s, 9 mms, .40 S & Ws and .45s and more modern ammo if they exist.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I notice the "old and out of date" Federal Hydra Shok made most of those lists and not far from the top. Still good stuff to this day it seems.

I truly think any "study" of one shot stops while interesting, totally unquantifiable. There are just too many variables in exact bullet impact & target size/density + the state of mind of the attacker plays a huge roll in whether they stop an attack or not. Everything is pretty much 100% with a CNS shot, so that gets tossed out of the "data base" as well. Yes interesting, but not definitive.
No one is getting me to believe a 32acp is the same as a 38sp+p LSWCHP load. Mass alone prevents good penetration w/ 32 & even 380, UNLESS ball ammo is used & you might as well be poking holes with an ice pick.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I think that most of the same data (and a lot more) is contained in Marshall & Sanow's book "Stopping Power." Many people throw rocks at the M&S book about the methodology used and the published effectiveness of various calibers and cartridges given, but the fact remains that even Jesus Christ couldn't please everyone. And to my knowledge, there is no other publication which pulls all this data together.

The flame alone probably ran them off.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Interesting, but I'll stick with the philosophy that you can't count on a one shot stop with anything and I'm planning on pulling the trigger more than once. I think that will take the percentage closer to 100%.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Re: OP. Not surprised. Do a good bit of deer hunting. It doesn't take a cannon to kill a deer stone dead right on out to a couple of hundred yards. Hard off the muzzle, just about anything will do. The .30-30 is just about unbeatable within 125-150 yds.

As applied to having to use a pistol of a person, it just doesn't take a cannon to get the job done. As with deer hunting, magazine articles and such will always push the line that one must have the hottest most powerful most newest engineered round/bullet/rifle combination to hunt deer. It just isn't at all the truth.

When it comes to self-defense calibers and revolvers/pistols, it's about the same thing. It just doesn't take a cannon to get the job done. It makes for lots of articles in magazines and on line, the quality of which varies. But, when you look at reports of actual incidents, the overwhelming vast majority do not support the idea that one must have a hand cannon to handle a SD/HD situation.

It isn't glamorous, it will not sell a lot of articles or generate a lot of views on YouTube, but the conclusions you reference are reality. The cognizant may decry them and look down their long noses at them, but calibers such as the plebian .32 ACP, .380 ACP, .38 Special, 9mm and... not surprisingly the .22 LR simply work.

But, all that not withstanding, it is fun to sit around a chew the fat about what makes this or that caliber superior to any and all others when it comes to critical things such as SD/HD or ... poking holes in bowling pins or paper targets. JMHO. Sincerely. brucev.

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<><

I think a lot of what causes the controversy is most tests of 38 special are made with "service" length barrels -- 4" or more.

And most tests of 32 acp and 380 are done with very small hide-out guns.

From a 4" or greater, 38 special is much superior on paper.

But, when you compare a 38 from a 2", the muzzle energy and likelihood of expansion is very similar to the 32 acp and 380.

Check the ballistics by the inch, if you don't believe that.

What ever works!

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John

That is a nice report but there are others with a little different take on
the bullets used and the data moved around a bit.

Bullets and guns have their good days and bad days............

30 fps can make or break a bullet hitting a gel pack with or
without a 4 layer denim patch. I prefer the plain gel reports.

Then there is also the "Wet pack" newspaper test if you are
not able to do the gel thing. I am a poor country pumpkin and
am only able to afford water jugs..... (I gave up the Reno Gazette a few years ago)

Generally I KNOW what I want to use in a certain weapon......
just that the weapon does not agree on my selection !!

You don't always get to shot what you want........... or you can
but have to make "Adjustments"......................

If you have a weapon that shots ammo that you think is right
and it works........... you are one up on a lot of us !!

Marshall and Sannow's work's aren't just flawed, they are utterly worthless. If you look at their work in depth, they are nothing more than a very poorly put together aggregate of very raw and unusable numbers. With all of the factors that go into a stop, and only analyzing one factor out of many, the numbers are so out of context that they have absolutely no meaning whatsoever. Real understanding of terminal ballistics and the science behind putting a man down requires actually knowing how and why things happen, careful analysis of individual cases to understand cause and effect, and established knowledge of how factors affect the end result. Putting poorly gathered, incomplete statistics without context is not science, or relevant, or useful, but rather nothing more than an indicator for real research to be done. Marshall and Sannow's works are, at best, junk science, and misleading at worst. Whatever you do with those garbage works, take it with heaping teaspoons of salt and do real research to understand how and why. Those percentages should be disregarded without a second thought.

Also, don't buy into the whole "all bullets are equal", or "all calibers are equal", because they certainly aren't. The truth is, there has been so many failures to stop that can be attributed to caliber, load, and bullet selection alone, that many calibers and loads have been, for good reason, called into question. People who will tell you that .22LR and .32 ACP work as well as 9mm, 357 Magnum, or 45 will point to the times they worked well in circumstances that favoured the smaller caliber, but conveniently forget about the cases where those smaller rounds failed to penetrate deep enough to kill or incapacitate, where the larger or more powerful rounds would have, and prove that those smaller calibers have severe flaws, and can fail even if the shooter makes careful shots. Its amazing how cherry picked anecdotes can trump other anecdotes completely contradicting a belief; people who tout .22LR always remember the stories where they worked, and conveniently forget about all the times it failed, and a superior round would have worked.

Yes, choosing the wrong load with the wrong gun, the wrong barrel, can cause under penetration, and an otherwise successful stop of an aggressor could turn into a potentially fatal failure. No, the range queens aren't right when they say that shot placement is the ONLY factor, and that choosing a better round, or a larger caliber is only for idiots who can't aim or have big egos. No, those who claim that barrels, bullets, and calibers don't matter are not even close to being correct. Yes, when you choose lighter loads, lighter bullets, shorter barrels, and smaller calibers, you are trading off one advantage to gain another.

Does it take a cannon to kill a deer? No, but the people I know who brag about poaching them with a .22LR don't brag about the 10 they wounded for the one they killed. Does it take a cannon to kill a man who is attacking you? No, but in a life or death struggle, you want every advantage you can get, and in real life circumstances, with stress, and long penetration angles, an inadequate caliber, bullet, or load, can yield inadequate results. When your life is on the line, over kill does not exist, and it is under kill that will prove fatal to you. Perhaps the cannon isn't necessary in perfect conditions to kill a man, but in an emergency it is the surer bet to save your life from a threat. What is base minimum in perfect conditions has no relevance to the situation you face, and what will be required of you and your weapon.

A .308 or a 12 gauge shotgun are better for self defense and stopping a threat than any pistol, no matter what people have to say about shot placement, and how the fact they can put hole sin paper in well lighted areas under no stress will magically allow them to shoot bad guys between the eyes in a self defense situation like some bad movie. A powerful weapon is no substitute for marksmanship and a cool head, but don't believe the idiotic mantras that good marksmanship is a panacea for every problem, or a replacement for adequate firepower in certain situations, either.

Unless you are standing right behind the bad guy and nail him in the base of the skull a one-shot stop is nothing you can count on with a hand gun or many rifles for that matter. That is no excuse to carry a mouse gun, but if it's worth shooting it's worth shooting twice.

That's why I want a 3" barreled gun. More easily gets up to that magic 1000 fps with a decent sized slug.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Perhaps one of the reasons 32 ACP is more effective than one would think is with such light bullets (60 grains in the case of Win Silvertips), the velocity gets up into that range and you get some expansion.

That will get their attention too.

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John

And the stopping power arguments go on forever. And probably always will. Huge numbers of people have been killed with a .22 LR. Huge numbers of people have not been killed by a .45 ACP. It all depends on where those bullets landed.

And around and around and around she goes, and where she stops nobody knows...

I just try to balance what I can shoot (in old age with bad hands) with what has a long track record of working in real life. There are as many answers as there are gun owners, I guess, but for me it's .38 Special LSWCHP, +P or the equivalent, in both two-inch and four-inch revolvers. So far.

If that changes it will be for reasons that make sense to me, and me alone, because only I will be trusting my life to it.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Well so will a $100 bill but it will not likely stop the fight soomer than later.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I've seen war footage showing a running solider still advancing for about 10 seconds after being shot in the chest with a a 50 caliber Browning machine gun round. What does this tell us?

I fell well armed with a 3953/ 9mm Speer 124 Grain Gold Dot Short Barrel or 60 with the 135 Grain Gold Dot Short Barrel .38 +P load.

Either are better than pleading for your life.

There are those that want the minimum recoil ammo for a
airweight 38 special that is a non +P loading and the only
load that I feel might work in expansion and penetration is
the 110gr Winchester Siler tip load.

The next best load would be the 125gr Federal "Nyclad load
that does well in gel and phone books but fails in some of the
4 layer Gel test to expand but is as good as it gets for those
that want a heavier bullet and can handle the extra recoil.

If you can handle these two loads that are a light +P in the
light J frames at 16 oz. or less, I would feel a lot better with
the 110gr DPX or the 125gr Rem GS that has a 100% record
of expansion......unlike the 125gr Gold Dot that has failed in
my and Youtube tests, due to a low velocity round from the box
and its heavy copper jacket made for the longer barrels and
higher speeds.

The 135gr Speer is a good SD load but there is also the new
Winchester 130gr Bonded if you can find it, for the snub nose.
Both were designed for the short 2" barrels and lower speeds
but they do carry a heavy recoil that needs to be mastered.

Once, while working vice back in the 70's, I had a no-shot stop with a .25acp. I stuck that muzzle in his ear, and he stopped. Call me superstitious, but I carried that vest pocket colt for the rest of my career.

Let's for a moment say that we all agree that Marshall & Sanow's results stating that the Federal C357B 125 grain JHP is the Holy Grail of stoping power (90%). I would be willing to bet that MOST here would not be able to affectively get off 3 or 4 well placed, fast shots out of a 2.5" Snubby while under attack and when the adrenaline is really pumping. I am not insulting anyone here and I would bet there are a select few that do use this load and practice with it often, but for the most part this load in a Snubby is relatively hard to use for repeated, rapid shooting. It kicks hard, has lots of muzzle flash, is super loud and I have personally fired this round from Snubby's. By the way........ just as an aside, the 125 grain .357 Magnum is famous for flame cutting and causing cracks in the forcing cone area on K Frames so lots of practice in that kind of gun and this ammo is not any longer recommended.

With the risk of sounding like a broken record, I always recommend to new CCW Guys and Gals that they use either one of two loads in their SNUBBY .357's. #1) Buffalo Bore #20A 158 grain LSWCHP-GC +P 38 Special. Out of a 2.5" - 3" barrel you will get about 1100 - 1130 fps, little muzzle flash, great accuracy (poa = poi) and will do no harm to the gun. #2) would be the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain JHP Short Barrel .38 Special offering. That will produce over 850 + fps out of a Snubby.

Remember, the best bullet in the world is useless unless it hits its intended target in the right amount of time. YMMV, and just my opinion of course........

Just wanted to add that MOST .357 Magnum data on the boxes and in catalogs of Companies is from 6" barrels or "Test Barrels" and NOT a SNUUBY. Look at BB's web site and you will see that they test their ammo through actual guns and state all barrel lengths and results.

The problem with the M&S book was that it was utter BS, because they loaded the deck for small bores and against big bores.
Up to .40 (or .40 and under, can't remember), they included CNS shots.
Over that caliber, they threw out CNS shots.
As a result, the M&S book and it's findings are utterly useless.

It appears Duckford beat me to it.
I called BS on the M&S BS back when it came out. It was easy to tell it was BS because none of it agreed with physics or physiology. Little bullets do not equal big bullets. Little bullet holes do not equal big bullet holes, no matter how much you like a cartridge.

It's much like the .5.56 fanboys who paraphrase the military's findings about small bore vs .30 cal stopping power. They like to spout that the 5.56 bullet has just as much stopping power as the 7.62 bullet.
Trouble is, that was NOT the result found. The result found was that the poodle shooter bullet COULD have the same or possibly better stopping power as a 7,62 bullet IF the 5.56 bullet had an impact velocity of 4,000 fps or more. That is something the 5.56 poodleshooter does not even do at the muzzle.

Anyway, proponents of inferior cartridges always cherry pick data to try to justify their choice of an inferior cartridge.
I don't carry and like .44 Spl/.45 ACP/.45 Colt/.357 Magnum because I like to carry a gun that recoils more and holds fewer rounds.
I like and carry them because they work better. You cannot change the laws of physics just because you don't like them.

I own more 9mms and .38s than .357s, .44s, and .45s.
I like shooting the .32s, 9s, .and .38s better because they are easier to shoot.
If I'm going to bet my life on a handgun round, it will be one that is a proven fight stopper with bullet designs ranging from the 1870s up to today, not one that only works well under perfect conditions with new wonder bullets.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

Took a 2" snubby .357 Magnum, made by Rossi, to a gun range. Used both .38 Spl, and .357 Mag loads in the piece.

When shooting the Magnum loads, I actually noted an audience of three other shooters (all strangers to me) gathered to watch me punch paper. It wasn't my accuracy they appreciated, but the literal "bloom" of flame which issued from the short barrel when those magnum rounds were touched off. Some of the guys had this look in their eyes, as if seeing a long lost love materialize before them. Sure made me grin to see their reaction. When I took a break, one of them asked about the revolver, so I wrote the name and caliber of my piece on a scrap of paper and passed it along.

SHOT PLACEMENT! SHOT PLACEMENT! A good snot locker shot with a .22 beats a total miss with a .44 mag. "1 shot stops" is a MYTH! I've seen a lot of gun shot wounds in my career. Two stick out as proof of the myth.

An AM/PM store caught on tape a very irate customer shooting another man just below the xiphoid process with an PMC Starfire .45 ACP JHP. The victim lived to testify against his attacker who was arrested that night. I was the 3rd unit on scene & thought the Vic was done for. Not so much.

The second was a neighborhood in my city that is like a mini Ciudad Juarez. Some puke shot is uncle in the gut with a piece of junk single action 22LR. When the police arrived, another officer & myself were assigned the watch the victim who was conscious & alert while others swept the area & apartments for the perp. The Vic was talking in Spanish to his brother then within about 3 minutes, his eyes glazed over & he turned grey then went limp. He died right there. EMS was staged as the scene wasn't secured & they did come in after we told them GET HERE NOW but no saving him. A homicide Det. told me after the autopsy that the slug evicerated his liver & he bled out. Immediate hospital transport would not have saved him. It should be noted the victim in #2 was a portly fellow with quite a bit of fat to penetrate. The small .22 did do just that.

So, there is no such thing as a 'one shot stop'. Both of the aforementioned cases are well documented and in both cases; the opposite SHOULD have happened. The .45 should have killed him and the shot placement was exactly where it should be. The second in theory should have hurt real bad but he should have survived. On top of that, each victim was shot one time.

Hit what you are aiming at. The purpose of the police bullet is to stop the threat, dying is a byproduct. Same applies for civillian self defense.

That's because getting shot SUCKS!

Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Shot placement is criteria #1. Adequate penetration is criteria #2. Everything else is almost academic. If you have to shoot the odds have gone south on you already. (All of this bumper sticker philosophy is just that, but it is still mostly true.

If I'm forced to pull the trigger I'm not going to just pull it one time.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"