I just read where a ton of Penetrator ammo was due in from Europe to sell in the U.S. and that is why they are trying to ban it.

According to Michael Hammond, GOA chief counsel, "There is a massive backlog of M885 ammo from NATO, which is about to come into the American market as a result of the fact that NATO is being encouraged to go from lead to copper ammo".

We need to stop the BATF.

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Slim, U.S. Army, Ret.

I picked up a box about 6 weeks ago at a gun show without having a clue as to what it was. Got home and saw the green tips so I decided to look it up on Google. Good thing I did, because I might have blown the back wall out of the shooting range. Now that I know that it's super deadly super armor piercing ammo I intend to hoard it in the event that North Korea goes through on their threat to invade the US. From the way the ATF is acting I expect that if two Battle Tanks line up for me I should be able to blow up both of them with one shot.

Yeah, the above is Sarcasm. However because it's actually not allowed at the nearby 50 yard indoor range I shoot at when it's cold I won't be shooting any of my M855 until this summer. I also don't expect it to be nearly as accurate as the Match Grade ammo I put together but I am a real fan of Lake City cases which is in large part the reason I bought it.

Already banned. Look up the new BATF rules published in Jan. the public comment thing was just for show. This Republic is gone. God help us.

They got ahead of themselves. Figured they would get away with it but it backfired. Has not gone into effect as yet.

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Slim, U.S. Army, Ret.

A recent article in the American Rifleman magazine claimed that the
U S government was dissatisfied with the combat effectiveness of the
M855 round and was in the process of switching to it's replacement.
The article explained why and said the change is coming. Wonder if
there is any connection between this and a surplus of M855 and all
the attention focused on sales to civilians?

Wish I could say what I would like about this situation but support the NRA and contact your Senators and Representatives!

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

The ATF will end up in court....again. They have 81 attorneys, what else would they be doing with your tax dollars? They can't pay attorneys 100K a year to sweep the floor and take the trash out. If the ATF can't do it we will just get an executive order like the ban on importing M1 carbines. You know the ones that all the gang bangers use.

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That's just somebody talkin.

The Republic is not gone as long as there are some thirty three million vets,some one million LEOs and many millions of hunters and such still living. Most of them are not fans of whats going on now.

The issue is, if memory serves me, the relative lack of effectiveness of the M855 in today's short-barrelled M-4 carbines. I think you've hit the nail on the head: The market was about to be flooded with surplus M855, and this rule change is designed to prevent that.

Anyone know what the military is going to replace the M855 with?

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Slim, U.S. Army, Ret.

The replacement is M855A1. It has a larger steel point/core and the new bullet contains no lead.

More info here: Evolution of the M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round | Article | The United States Army

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Corripe Cervisiam

Maybe , maybe not. The ATF is saying is was left out and they are releasing a correction to put the exemption for the ammo back in until it is settled.

Believe it or not, YMMV.

https://www.firearmspolicy.org/news/...lready-banned/

bob

I bought a bunch of M855 this week at near normal price. If it's not banned, I will just shoot it. But it's not allowed at my indoor range. I'm a lemming running off the cliff.

Was at an Academy today. They had 6 900-round ammo cans of Rio, at $450 still at 15:00, so its not gone totally, but no smaller boxes. Lots of various .223

Still only Aquila .22, 2 limit on 50-round boxes

Call me cynical, or maybe just plain practical, but errors like this in a document do not just happen by 'error.' Much time, thought, discussion, and review occur during the editing process of these documents. Especially on ANY changes to what existed in the past in that document. I've been around a lot of this type of thing, and changes are not made haphazardly.

If they wanted to be honest, they would have said that they made an error in the timing/coordination of all of this. They know that they are going to move to ban the sale of the sale of 855 ammo, and just got ahead of themselves in releasing the updated document prior to the sham "review/public input" proceedings that they are currently conducting.

They got ahead of themselves, and probably had someone jerk a knot in their rope to bring them back to the realization that there is a process that has to be done before arbitrarily taking away citizen's rights. These agencies don't give a damn about the constitution, they just believe they can do what they please.

As for the 'comment period/review,' I am positive that it'll be like an old western movie when the posse catches the bad guy. The sheriff tells him, "sure we're going to give you a fair trial, and then we're going to hang you!"

We all know who will continue to get 'green tip' ammo; the "government" and the criminals. I was raised with the expectation that "we" are the government. Yes, us lowly ol' citizens... Of the people, for the people, by the people...

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NRA Life Member

Actually current law prohibits release from government sources surplus ammo. The stuff that's on the market currently never got in government hands.

Don't believe all the BS about M855/SS109 ammo being "already banned". If it had actually been "banned" anytime prior to 2015, all retail/wholesalers would have been notified to pull all such ammo from retail sales as it would constitute a federal felony (and possibly individual state felony) to sell armor piercing handgun ammo. Even here in anti-gun California SS109 ammo is still being sold at retail stores (if any can still be found).

This is the first time I have ever seen outright false pro-gun propaganda.

The USMC is looking at switching to copper HPs for all issued rifle and pistol ammo.

Just like the shortage of gun powder and .22 there is no one reason that this is happening, other than the govt thinks they know what is better for us than ourselves. Anyway, something I don't see mentioned in this thread, I thought I read that gun manufacturers are now makings pistols that will fire this ammo and there has been a long standing ban on any ammo that can be fired from a pistol that is armor piercing. Theory is it adds a greater danger to police, making their bullet proof vests ineffective. Am I remembering this correctly?

Bushmaster made a .223 pistol way back in the early 1990's. Currently, a number of manufacturers make .223 AR pistols.

Virtually any rifle ammo fired in a pistol length barrel will penetrate bullet proof vests. AR-15 pistols do not meet the definition of "cheap, easily concealed, preferred by criminals" firearm.

This is not about police safety.

The so-called pistols in question are short barreled AR's with a lower designated as a pistol at time of manufacture. They are both expensive and most of them in the range of 20" long. That is not easily concealable. Nor are they favored by thugs and gang bangers for criminal use.

Than there are the Thompson Center Contender type single shot pistols with .223 barrels or barrels in other rifle calibers that have been around for probably 30 years. They will also shoot through soft armor, but they are not very short or concealable. The largish single shot pistols for some reason do not appear to be popular with the criminal class.

That BATF exists to ban things.

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Can my S&W Mdl 10 shoot +P

Well I learned something from all this, one military bullet I use, the M80, is inherently unstable like the SS109, which explains why I can' get it to group better than about 3 MOA.
I have noticed that steel cored M80 has disappeared from the sites I used to buy it from. 300 Blackout pistols led to withdrawal of these from the civilian market? Lead core is still available.


I hope some dirt bag doesn't manufacture a pistol in 7.62x54R. Goodbye to the east bloc surplus ammo much beloved by us cheapskates.

I have a can of M855. They told us in the Marine Corps that the M855 was a superior bullet when used in the M16A2. I have a brand new M16A2 upper and the M855 shoots terrible groups in it. The old bullet the M193 shoots better in my rifle. I will never by anymore M855, but I hate to see it banned nonetheless.

The M855 round was initially developed for use in the M249 SAW (LMG), not the M16 rifle, because the M16s at that time had the old 1:12" twist which would not stabilize the 62 grain M855 bullet adequately. The M16 used the M193 cartridge with a 55 grain FMJ bullet. In the interest of ammunition interchangeability, the M16 was given a 1:7" barrel which would stabilize the heavier and longer M855 bullet. With virtually any M16 rifle and military ammo, effectiveness drops dramatically beyond 200 yards. It's even worse in the 14.5" barrel of the M4.

The new M855A1 round is intended to reduce environmental contamination as it does not contain lead (except for the primer composition). The M855A1 bullet is basically a pointed steel core contained partially within a gilding metal jacket. Battlefield reports on its real-world performance are very mixed at present.

I noticed at the local gun show yesterday that the "green tip" 5.56mm ammo was selling at prices ranging from 65 to 90 cents per round. Virtually all AR users will be just as well off using the various M193-type FMJ loads instead of the currently-overpriced M855 type. As long as you can get it. The next step is to ban virtually any rifle ammunition, as all of it will penetrate body armor. The "green tip" ban is simply a BATFE warm-up training exercise.

A "warm-up" for what?

Apparently many people have absolutely zero knowledge of the federal definition of "armor piercing HANDGUN ammo".

I have ZERO love for the BATFE, but they are NOT out to ban all or even some rifle ammunition. If they were they would have started decades ago when single shot pistols (especially the Thompson Contender) started hitting the market.

There is only ONE SINGLE 5.56 load that is being considered being banned from manufacture or importation for sale on the commercial market, and that is any round loaded with the SS109 bullet.

Ignorance and paranoia is running hot and heavy right now, and the media and even the NRA is adding their two cents to this frenzy.

If people want to get angry at someone, start with all those gun makers who have brought out semi-auto pistols chambered in 5.56 and 5.45x39mm, just like Olympic Arms when they made their pistols in 7.62x39mm which caused the ban on dirt cheap steel cored AK/SKS ammo. All this did was force Russian manufacturers to start importing lead cored ammo which is still abundant on the market today.