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03-26-2015, 07:25 PM
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No Hollow Points
I shot my 669 for the first time in years today. It needs some work but still shoots great. Anyway, I'm a Law enforcement officer in NJ, about to retire. I'd like to carry this pistol, but I will no longer be able to carry hollow points. I'm told Polymer ball ammo is ok. What's the best option for a 669. I've heard it's best to stay away from +p, as it may crack the frame.
Last edited by Il Marco; 03-27-2015 at 02:01 PM.
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03-26-2015, 08:27 PM
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A retired officer can not carry HP's ..........!?
That law is really "messed up".
( only words that will pass the G rating )
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03-26-2015, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed
A retired officer can not carry HP's ..........!?
That law is really "messed up".
( only words that will pass the G rating )
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Amen! Il Marco is moving to another state to retire a possibility?
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03-26-2015, 09:13 PM
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Hollow points are designed to prevent over-penetration, a point completely lost on the NJ legislature. It is not uncommon for the hollow core to be plugged when penetrating heavy clothing, whereupon it acts like a FMJ bullet. A semi-wadcutter will inflict nearly as much shock and tissue damage, while remaining compliant with NJ law. A gummy point might be the best of both worlds.
Better yet, look for a compact .45 ACP. A 9 mm may expand, but a .45 never shrinks.
The 669 is an old model, but S&W pistols are usually rated for +P ammunition. A quick check with S&W will clear that up. A steady diet of +P might impose more wear and tear on the frame, but use for self defense with appropriate but limited practice time, is probably okay.
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03-26-2015, 09:34 PM
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Welcome to the Forum
+P in a 669 is no big deal, that is a stainless frame.
Your frame crack warning probably referenced 469s which are alloy framed.
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03-26-2015, 09:34 PM
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How about a flat point FMJ? The flat point will crush muscle instead of penciling through. You may end up with 147gr bullets, but there will be no doubt in the amount of penetration.
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03-26-2015, 10:07 PM
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HP ?
Does Federal still make the EFMJ ?
Might be a better option than FMJ .
Good Luck
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03-26-2015, 10:12 PM
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If I recall when the NYPD went to 9mm they were required to carry military ball ammo. After a few shoot-thru incidents, one of which killed somebody and a couple of which injured cops, the politicians finally started listening to the firearms pros. New Jersey is still run by PC idiots obviously.
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03-27-2015, 12:01 AM
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Corbon Powrball
Federal Guard Dog
Those are about your only choices other than Glaser or Mag Safe. I personally don't like pre fragmented ammo.
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03-27-2015, 12:30 AM
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The 380 has the new Lehigh and even newer OATH Tango loads.
Maybe they might get to the 38 some day ?
Both on this site if you spend a little time looking. (Ammo, 3/21/15 )
Otherwise I would think the large 158gr lead SWC would work.
Good luck.
Last edited by Nevada Ed; 03-27-2015 at 12:34 AM.
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03-27-2015, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed
A retired officer can not carry HP's ..........!?
That law is really "messed up".
( only words that will pass the G rating )
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Fair is fair. It's time for police unions to stop supporting these worthless laws.
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03-27-2015, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HCH
Fair is fair. It's time for police unions to stop supporting these worthless laws.
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And the worthless law makers !
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03-27-2015, 06:04 AM
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Any second you will receive recomendations for Critical DUTY/ Crit Defense, but I still prefer Corbon PowerBall for ammo of that type. The Federal Gaurd Dog is EFMJ in new packaging.
The other answer is .45acp.
That sound you hear in the background is residents of Ca , CT, Ma ,NY, and Md all chanting " it's terriable here , but at least we're not New Jersey" .
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03-27-2015, 11:37 AM
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What he said.....
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03-27-2015, 12:19 PM
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If you are committed to the 669 and 9mm Parabellum a few issues are involved in ammo selection to comply with the NJ laws.
1. Ammo must feed reliably in your pistol. My experience with the S&W autos has been generally good in this regard. Those I have used were reliable with just about anything I chose to feed them, including handloads of .357" SWC's intended for .38 and .357. I suggest that you try a few factory loads for function in your pistol, with an emphasis on large frontal area and flat point. Test each thoroughly to assure yourself that what you choose is 100% reliable in your pistol
2. I would avoid +P, not so much out of concern for the pistol but more from concern over excessive penetration. No point in launching the bullets at higher velocities and increasing penetration; the only real benefit of the higher velocities has always been in getting JHP ammo to expand reliably, and that factor has been taken away from you.
3. The 669 has fixed sights that are not readily adjustable (usually requires a file). Your ammo needs to shoot consistently to point of aim at reasonable ranges (25 to 50 feet). S&W, like most manufacturers, regulates fixed sight guns using the more common ammunition types, probably 115 to 125 grain in 9mm. Much lighter bullets are likely to shoot low compared to point of aim, and much heavier bullets are likely to shoot above point of aim, due to differences in barrel time during the recoil impulse. Make sure whatever you choose is capable of shooting to point of aim.
Will the law permit you to keep using your standard capacity magazines, or will you have to replace those with 10-rounders? Another consideration might be testing magazines for function with your gun and ammo, especially if you are required to make a change.
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03-27-2015, 12:27 PM
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Plus P is FINE. According to the NJSP you are permitted to carry either the Critical Defense, Federal FMJ Expanding, or the Pow R Ball ammunition. This nonsense reportedly only applies to retired N.J. officers. Out of state retiree's are except according to LEOSA but I'm not going to be a test case. I carry the aforementioned ammunition.
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03-27-2015, 12:29 PM
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Read about Hollow Point ammo in NJ here - see page 2 at the bottom:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newjersey.pdf
And this is from Wiki:
Quote:
Limits and restrictions
Hollow-point ammunition is available for unrestricted purchase from most retailers wherever firearms are sold, and may be transported by purchasers without special licensing. However, hollow-point bullets may not be carried outside of a place of target practice, dwelling, premises or land possessed by a person, even if one has a valid permit to carry a handgun, except when being transported directly to and from these places. [4] Additionally the NJ Superior Court in State v Brian Aitken have ruled that there is no exception for moving between residences with hollow-point bullets. [5]
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I hope I never have a reason to enter the state of NJ- Ever!
Last edited by wittmeba; 03-27-2015 at 12:34 PM.
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03-27-2015, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wittmeba
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Never been there myself, and I don't feel any need to go there.
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03-27-2015, 01:29 PM
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They do. It's 105 grain, if I recall.
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03-27-2015, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather
If you are committed to the 669 and 9mm Parabellum a few issues are involved in ammo selection to comply with the NJ laws.
1. Ammo must feed reliably in your pistol. My experience with the S&W autos has been generally good in this regard. Those I have used were reliable with just about anything I chose to feed them, including handloads of .357" SWC's intended for .38 and .357. I suggest that you try a few factory loads for function in your pistol, with an emphasis on large frontal area and flat point. Test each thoroughly to assure yourself that what you choose is 100% reliable in your pistol
2. I would avoid +P, not so much out of concern for the pistol but more from concern over excessive penetration. No point in launching the bullets at higher velocities and increasing penetration; the only real benefit of the higher velocities has always been in getting JHP ammo to expand reliably, and that factor has been taken away from you.
3. The 669 has fixed sights that are not readily adjustable (usually requires a file). Your ammo needs to shoot consistently to point of aim at reasonable ranges (25 to 50 feet). S&W, like most manufacturers, regulates fixed sight guns using the more common ammunition types, probably 115 to 125 grain in 9mm. Much lighter bullets are likely to shoot low compared to point of aim, and much heavier bullets are likely to shoot above point of aim, due to differences in barrel time during the recoil impulse. Make sure whatever you choose is capable of shooting to point of aim.
Will the law permit you to keep using your standard capacity magazines, or will you have to replace those with 10-rounders? Another consideration might be testing magazines for function with your gun and ammo, especially if you are required to make a change.
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We can carry a magazine up to 15 rounds.
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03-27-2015, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryD
Amen! Il Marco is moving to another state to retire a possibility?
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Another state? No. At least I have my Glock 23. I'll carry it with one of the polymer ball rounds.
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03-27-2015, 03:13 PM
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Absent Comrade
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The state of New Jersey has always been in the fore front when making new changes. Jersey barriers? Gun laws? This no hollow point thing could spread.
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03-27-2015, 03:32 PM
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I was I'm jersey twice yesterday. What a pain it is to make sure you don't have anything on you each time you cross the Berlin Wall
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03-27-2015, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed
A retired officer can not carry HP's ..........!?
That law is really "messed up".
( only words that will pass the G rating )
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if by "messed up" you mean that any citizen cannot carry HP's by law, then yes I agree it's messed up..
I am sure the criminals always abide by that law...
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03-27-2015, 06:46 PM
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Here is a question!
Why does he get to carry?!?!?!?
Almost no one gets that "right" in the people's republic of nj
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03-27-2015, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire75
Here is a question!
Why does he get to carry?!?!?!?
Almost no one gets that "right" in the people's republic of nj
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Under LEOSA (Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act), retired officers in good standing are allowed to carry nation-wide, no other permit needed. Active LEO are also allowed to carry nation-wide. Makes it convenient in some ways, kinda inconvenient in others.
For example, in Kansas, retired LEO's have to qualify each year, shooting the standard police qualification course, with a semi-auto and a revolver (if they want to carry both types of handgun). CCH licensees are required to qualify once, when they take the licensing class; then the CCH is valid for four years, at which time it is renewed in the same manner as a drivers license--go to the DMV, pay a fee, and get the new 4-year license.
A CCH licensee is not required to submit to the NICS background check when purchasing a firearm (they still fill out the federal form, but don't have to wait around for the phone call for the Feds to deem them worthy of having a gun). Retired and active LEO still have to be called in.
One good thing about traveling with a retired/LEOSA-licensed LEO friend is when you're passing through an area where your CCH isn't recognized, you buddy could carry your gun until you get out of that jurisdiction--unless you're traveling in New Mexico, where it is only permitted to carry one gun.
Sorry for the long answer. Acebow
Last edited by Acebow; 03-27-2015 at 09:22 PM.
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03-27-2015, 09:37 PM
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I have been following this thread over the last couple days. It really amazes me that a state has this kind of law. Now don't get me wrong, lawmakers in my state are by and large, a bunch of self serving boneheads, but I really cannot imagine this kind of ammunition restrictions becoming law. I think even if this kind of law managed to get passed, I really can't imagine that it would be enforced here.
Maybe I should get out more...or not.
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03-28-2015, 10:32 AM
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There's a story there, F- 75...
Retired officers could not carry until about 20 years ago. A retired police chief took some elderly friends a cemetery in Newark to tend to a loved on's grave. They were robbed by a thug, and the retiree had nothing to defend them with but a rake. The retired chief was murdered. After the Star Ledger article, legislation went through quickly.
Last edited by Il Marco; 03-28-2015 at 10:35 AM.
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04-01-2015, 06:27 PM
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04-01-2015, 10:33 PM
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After you retire you'll move to Florida like all the others and carry whatever ammo you choose.
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04-02-2015, 12:47 AM
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Just the opposite I would think makes more sense if you want to qualify over penetration.
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04-04-2015, 12:15 AM
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Wow! Bet they would really go nuts over a silencer even if it was only for hunting.
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04-04-2015, 12:37 AM
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This may be odd.....
You've got some great suggestions but just for funsies, coated lead Semi Wadcutters shoot very well out of my 3rd gen. That's one good reason not to have a Glock.
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04-04-2015, 02:24 AM
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Am I glad I left N.J. in 1991!
And I did have a CC permit in N.J.
Don't even ask what I had to go through to get it.......
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04-04-2015, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STCM(SW)
Am I glad I left N.J. in 1991!
And I did have a CC permit in N.J.
Don't even ask what I had to go through to get it.......
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Now I want to know! Must have been some interesting things. I'm my whole life I have only seen 2 people that carried in NJ and neither was a cop.
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04-04-2015, 09:07 AM
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When you get tired of putting up with New Jersey let me know. I'm a licensed Realtor here in Florida and I'll be glad to help. We can carry hollow points and own silencers plus the weather is a heck of a lot nicer here.
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04-16-2015, 06:09 PM
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Leaving aside the obvious issues we all have with the New Jersey law, I believe that New Jersey does not consider Corbon Powerball, Hornady Critical Defense and Federal EFMJ (including Federal LE EFMJ +P loads) to be "hollow points."
I suggest you contact the NJSP ballistics unit, preferably while still on the job, and confirm that the above rounds are still New Jersey legal and see if anything else is on the list. Then do some research on which ones are "best" for the intended purpose and make sure they work in your gun.
The NJSP ballistics guys don't make legal decisions, obviously, but their position on this will be followed by state prosecutors on this issue.
On the other hand, I thought I heard that NJ was going to change its position on hollow points for retired LEO, in compliance wit the LEOSA. I thankfully have no reason to go to NJ myself, so I have not paid much attention, but you might want to check that.
Best of luck to you.
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04-16-2015, 06:57 PM
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I regret that I inherited a beach house in NJ.
It is not America.
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04-16-2015, 07:30 PM
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just use swc in wheelgun and ball in auto. Shot placement is queen!!
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04-16-2015, 09:24 PM
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Actually, shot placement is king, jeeps.
But adequate penetration (which is queen) is a little tricky with 9mm ball - you get too much.
The OP might want to take a look at this write-up and YouTube - I'm not a fad ammo guy, but I found this pretty interesting:
Ammo Quest: Polycase ARX Inceptor in .380 ACP and 9mm - The Truth About Guns
Note that he found this a better choice against human attackers in 9mm than Lehigh.
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04-16-2015, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa
Welcome to the Forum
+P in a 669 is no big deal, that is a stainless frame.
Your frame crack warning probably referenced 469s which are alloy framed.
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M669 has a stainless slide, but still has an alloy frame, just anodized in a lighter color.
FYI
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04-16-2015, 09:47 PM
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Does NJ consider JSPs hollow points?
Last edited by RETOKSQUID; 04-16-2015 at 09:50 PM.
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06-01-2015, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich
Actually, shot placement is king, jeeps.
But adequate penetration (which is queen) is a little tricky with 9mm ball - you get too much.
The OP might want to take a look at this write-up and YouTube - I'm not a fad ammo guy, but I found this pretty interesting:
Ammo Quest: Polycase ARX Inceptor in .380 ACP and 9mm - The Truth About Guns
Note that he found this a better choice against human attackers in 9mm than Lehigh.
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speaking of....
July Guns&Ammo just arrived today. Lengthy article on Inceptor ammo including gel tests for .380, 9, 40, 45.
Thinking of buying some for my XDs 45.
Anyone here got experience with it?
Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 06-01-2015 at 06:47 PM.
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06-01-2015, 08:31 PM
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Actually, I do!
I thought the review of the .380s that Shooting the Bull did a while back was pretty intriguing (the stuff goes to 12" but does not overpenetrate and does make a bigger wound cavity than ball), so I bought some for my 1934 Beretta.
www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/shootingthebull410/ammo-quest-polycase-arx-inceptor-in-380-acp-and-9mm/
I found the Polycase Inceptor ARX 56-gr polymer/copper screwtop stuff was actually fairly accurate - about the most accurate of the stuff I shot from this gun. Furthermore, it had virtually no recoil (of course), ejected and operated fine, and gave good velocities and straight-on hits.
First group (of five, benched at 10 yards):
M 1174/S 64.89/D 27.53
Second group:
M 1187/S 101.9.D 36.72
Check out the three lobes of the bullets, clearly visible in the impacts on the target:
Given the results with this stuff in gelatin, I'm going to switch from FMJ (which could certainly overpenetrate) to the Polycase Inceptor ARX 56-gr for carry in the 1934. I need to run it through my LCP and the BDA before I commit there.
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06-01-2015, 08:44 PM
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Not sure if this has been yet clarified.
As of 10/12/10 LEOSA makes the carry of hollow point ammunition by retired officers acceptable. This is a non-issue.
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06-11-2015, 06:49 AM
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https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=288
Will give you over 1025 fps from your 2" barrel and is safe for a J in good condition. You won't get any expansion but it WILL give you LOTS of shocking power and penetration.
I don't get it that they STILL don't thing Hollow Point ammo is actually safer for use because of the fact that it won't exit the body cavity as do many NON Hollow Points.
Last edited by chief38; 06-11-2015 at 06:53 AM.
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06-12-2015, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transit
Not sure if this has been yet clarified.
As of 10/12/10 LEOSA makes the carry of hollow point ammunition by retired officers acceptable. This is a non-issue.
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Not according to the NJSP firearms unit. They do NOT, will NOT recognize the 2010 revision to LEOSA.
The Sgt. that I spoke with on the phone a couple of years back about this very topic arrogantly asked me if I wanted to be the test case the next time I traveled to NJ?
It seems to be a dead issue in NJ with the PBA or the FOP...they won't fight it or even touch it!!!
I carry Critical Duty in either 9 mm or .40 S&W when we go back to NJ to visit.
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JimC
Last edited by JimC; 06-12-2015 at 05:48 AM.
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06-12-2015, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HCH
Fair is fair. It's time for police unions to stop supporting these worthless laws.
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The PBA and the FOP don't have the balls to take it on!!!
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JimC
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06-12-2015, 09:04 AM
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Do they pull you over there and inspect your ammo? How is this enforced?
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06-12-2015, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC
Not according to the NJSP firearms unit. They do NOT, will NOT recognize the 2010 revision to LEOSA.
The Sgt. that I spoke with on the phone a couple of years back about this very topic arrogantly asked me if I wanted to be the test case the next time I traveled to NJ?
It seems to be a dead issue in NJ with the PBA or the FOP...they won't fight it or even touch it!!!
I carry Critical Duty in either 9 mm or .40 S&W when we go back to NJ to visit.
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Not sure what that means. The law doesn't require anyone to "recognize" it. Go ahead and violate it. See what happens.
I absolutely believe that you spoke to an arrogant guy, but that's a far cry from a trooper making an explicitly enumerated unlawful arrest.
Sure, I'll be the test case. -Could be, every time I cross a westbound bridge. Happens all the time.
I'd be impolite and answer the Sergeant's question with another question: does he want to be the one who orders an explicitly unlawful arrest, especially after a statement like that, which opens the door wide to a 1983 suit?
Every member of the SPNJ with whom I have ever dealt (-and there have been many) was a stone-cold professional, justifiably proud of their outfit and of themselves.
I have no concerns regarding the integrity of a road trooper from the state of New Jersey.
The law on this is settled.
Carry what you're comfortable with...
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