Yup, me too. I've actually started carrying Speer GDSB to conserve my very finite supply of the old "Express" loads, as I do "rotate" my carry ammo periodically.

I'd have zero reservations using their new HTP LHP in barrels 3" or longer, however.

If you want an awesome load for your gun (and any other) try UNDERWOOD AMMO. amazing stuff!!!! I use it in 380 up to 460 and it is very powerful, accurate and controllable...

See post 43- I agree not a perfect world, but the heart/lung/great vessels are not buried under 8-10 inches of bone and muscle. I do not disagree with the FBI protocol, I just do not accept it as the Holy Grail in "stopping Power". As stated before all handguns are a compromise. Be Safe,

__________________
I BACK OUR BLUE

Everyone has an opinion. Here are my three favorites:

1. FBI Load
2. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel
3. Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman

Tests. That would be where you shoot people and see how they react.

"Powder blends." Right. Bullets still come out of the barrel at about the same speed.

The only thing that has changed with hollow points is more reliable expansion. I.e., they are now guaranteed not to penetrate.

You recommend, among others, Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain. 860 fps. No "special blend of powders" is required for that.

Speer says:

"Speer® Gold Dot® Ammunition continues dominating the law enforcement community. Its proven reliability for tough jobs has made it the #1 duty ammunition on the market today. To put it simply—it's the best. We're reintroducing this fine ammunition in three user-friendly categories: Speer Gold Dot Personal Protection, Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel® Personal Protection and Speer Gold Dot Handgun Hunting."

Reliable. #1. The best.

Marketing stuff.

They don't guarantee it will stop an assailant. They don't even say it will stop an assailant.

The "defense" ammunition industry gets away with no performance requirements whatsoever. They say it is for "defense," and provide no criteria as to what it will accomplish when used for defense. Declaring "more reliable expansion" is taken as performance - with the industry's encouragement. Performance is stopping assailants. Not bullet magic tricks.

The Remington load I recommend is easy to shoot. Follow up shots will be no problem. You will still have skin on your fingers after shooting it.

BTW, Evan Marshall said, "Interestingly enough, there was often little correlation between the expansion of hollow points and the final result."

Deadmeat2 said, "A hollow point won't hurt a .45."

I say use hollow points in your rifles. Use bullets with as much meplat as possible in handguns.

My favorite 38 special self defense load is a hardcast 148 gr double ended wadcutter over 5.1 grains of Unique.

IN MY K-FRAMES. It takes the skin off my fingers in the 642.

You guys are doing people no favors recommending hot loads for the 642. It is not a suitable platform for hot loads.

Federal Nyclad 125 grain +p- if you can find it. Bullet slightly harder than standard velocity version for deeper penetration, velocity aided by nylon coating, great expansion, proven results, easily manageable felt recoil for ease of follow-up shots. Out of print like all Nyclad, however some guy (not me) seems to have a stash of it to sell on GB.

I have shot my 442 with the 135 +p gold dot, and 125 grain version, hundreds of them. I've even tried it out competing against coworkers with full size service guns, and I still have all of the skin on my hands.

The 135 +p was designed by Speer for small revolvers, at the request of NYPD and some other agencies for their small revolvers.

If anything we are doing people some rather large favors by recommending a load that is specifically tailored to their firearm.

Every load I've recommended in this thread I have bought, shot, toyed around with and have found it to do what I need it to do.

How many companies do you see selling double-ended wadcutters for their premier self defense round in .38 special???

Remember the "TEFLON cop-killers!" & "Black Talon cop-killers!" ???? NYCLADS were once included in this demented rave, as I recall.

Interestingly I still have a couple boxes of these older NYCLADS from way, way back... Since all my snubbies are K-frames these have usually been the easy-to-handle & control carry load for a couple decades. Can't remember if they really feel any different in a Model 15 2" vs. Model 19 2 1/2" vs. Model 66 4'.

Since I've yet to acquire a J-frame (of any persuasion?) I can't speak to their use there, but it makes sense that what is sauce for the goose is... Goin' to work jus' fine!

Cheers!

LIncoln, I'm a retired firearms examiner and currently do FBI protocol ballistic shoots for a major manufacturer. I have shot "jello" with just about every handgun caliber and bullet/load type in production today. There are tons of very good performing load/bullet combos available, some designed especially for the short barreled revolvers. Surprisingly enough the load my wife carries in her two inch is a factory 148 grain wadcutter. It comes out of her gun at about 690 FPS, she shoots it well and consistantly gets 16 inches of penetration in bare jello and 14-15 through summer clothing(two layers of cotton T-shirt material) I have witnessed two autopsies in my 30 year carreer on bad guys, shot with this load and it's amazing how much damage/hemorrhage is caused by this load with bullets being recovered just under the skin opposite the entry wound. I'm not trying to tell you what to carry, but from experience I recommend a heavy bullet with a large meplat and don't go overboard on the velocity. Penetration (and marksmanship) is the key mechanism and bullet weight and design are the dictating factors in penetration. Muzzle blast and recoil are detriments to good marksmanship.

My 2 cents worth on a very opinionated subject

Haven't shot the .38's, but have done a little work with the .45LC load out of a 4 5/8" Blackhawk. According to an avid handgun hunter, who also does a lot of training for various Law Enforcement and Military groups, the hard-cast loads (both calibers) penetrate much better on flesh and bone than the soft-n-slow target loads. The target loads are designed for putting holes in paper; the hotter, hard-cast loads are designed for more penetration--and still make nice, neat holes in paper.

Yes, there are stories about people being shot with the target loads, and being DRT; there are a lot more occasions where the target loads didn't do squat. Shooting flesh, whether people or critters, is never a sure thing. As a child, I read a story in one of the outdoor magazines about a guy who shot a grizzly bear with a .22, one shot, and killed it--the bullet went into the nasal cavity and hit some part of the brain, dropping it on the spot. So, based on that story, a .22 could be considered an ideal bear-hunting load. Eh.... maybe not.

IF one simply MUST use a non-hollow point bullet for defense, I'll agree one with a flat nose would be a better choice. Flat-nosed bullets tend to penetrate deeper, and in a more direct line, than round-nose bullets. BUT, why limit yourself with inferior loads, when all the research and development in bullets and powders the last couple decades has provided us with loads that penetrate well and [usually] expand to cause larger wound channels?

Again, somebody will come up with a story where some Super Blaster New Fangled Magic Hollow Point didn't expand and drop a bad guy like a rock. Well, we're talking about handguns, not mortar shells. Sometimes handgun bullets, no matter how well designed and how good the placement, don't expand. That's why we shoot until the threat is over. Limiting our possibilities using outdated bullets is less than wise.

Whew, much longer reply than I intended. Sorry for being so long-winded. Acebow

The great leap forward has been in marketing.

Nope, that's just so much fertilizer.

The 'great leaps' have been in bullet design and construction, with a lot of good results from hollow points being developed to work (expansion, with penetration to useful 'depths') within the 'velocity envelopes' that can be expected from shorter-barrel pistols/revolvers. For years, manufacturers of rifle hunting bullets have worked to get desired performance levels from different hunting bullets, according to the recommended use of the bullets. For example, for big game, like bears, elk, moose, etc., they were able to design bullets to push deep with good expansion, and survive striking bone; those bullets may push too deep before expanding to give good performance on deer-size game, an would likely pass through a coyote with no expansion at all. But a different design, intended for thinner-skinned, smaller 'big' game, like deer or antelope, probably wouldn't push deep enough in bigger (sized and boned) game like moose or a grizzly bear. Then, there are smaller caliber bullets designed for varmints that would be devastating on a coyote or bobcat, but not exit the chest cavity--designed to work that way to save the pelt; they would make lousy deer or antelope bullets. BUT all these different bullets are designed to work within a certain 'velocity envelope'--too slow, and they won't expand; too fast, and they'll expand explosively and leave shallow, often non-fatal, wounds (as in using varmint loads on Bambi).

As to handgun bullets, when the market (usually starting with LEO agencies, then moving to the commercial market) began demanding better performance than the old Cop Killer bullets--ie: Round Nose Lead and FMJ/Ball ammo--the ammo companies started trying to deliver. Hollow points of different capabilities appeared, one of the first being the so-called FBI load, the SWCHP; they worked much better than the FMJ and RNL, and still perform well--if the lead is soft enough or the harder-cast lead is gas-checked so as to be pushed to a higher velocity (to allow the harder lead to expand better). As time went by, more and more and better and better designs appeared--with a few failures along the way. For example, after the Miami shootout, the FBI insisted on deeper-penetrating loads for their 9mm pistols, and the 147gr HP appeared on the scene--and in the early iterations, were a ****** load for social purposes, proving to be about as ineffectual as a FMJ; the first 147-grainers didn't expand worth squat. Time has gone by, R&D was done, and now we have available some mighty fine 147gr loads, such as Federal HST and Winchester Ranger. The same thing has happened with lighter 9mm loads, the .40S&W, .45, etc etc.

In the .38Spl, there are a number of more-than-adequate loads available, including (to repeat one that has been mentioned in other posts) the Gold Dot Short Barrel load, which has been developed to maximize the potential of shorter-barrel revolvers. This load has been used extensively by the New York City PD (I think it was developed for them, initially), and other agencies, and has proven to be much much more effective than the old 'solid bullet' loads--RNL, FMJ, or SWC--of the past. That's not marketing, not an opinion, it's a fact based on real-life use.

One caution on the GDSB load, though; it is designed specifically for 'short barrel' guns--4" and under. I've seen reports on tests that out of 6" and longer barrels, the load can have a tendency to break apart and cause shallow wounds, probably because out of the longer barrels the velocity tends to go too high--outside the intended 'velocity envelope'.

IF somebody just has to use the old designs for defensive purposes, for whatever reason (afraid of new technology; 'it worked once before, so it will work again'; it's the only bullet available until I get to the store and buy something better; whatever), I'd suggest having lots of reloads, or a friend alongside with a bigger gun. Acebow

"The 'great leaps' have been in bullet design and construction, with a lot of good results from hollow points being developed to work (expansion, with penetration to useful 'depths') within the 'velocity envelopes' that can be expected from shorter-barrel pistols/revolvers."

That's as far as I got. It defies physics. Expansion reduces penetration. Penetration from the .38 SPL marginal. Adding expansion will further reduce that inadequate penetration. It's physics, not fertilizer.

Yep, these are what me and my learned colleagues prefer.

Actually thats not the case. Different velocities, shapes, projectiles and charges will have different results. You are correct though, it is physics.

The old "two holes bleed more than one" philosophy has its place and if the OP were referring to .380, I might agree. However, .38 special is a different story and I feel that with the increased velocity and projectile weight, it provides a little more to work with in the realm of "physics." Yes there are tons of marketing claims in the CC ammo market and many are just that, but I find it hard to argue with the proven track record of the FBI+p load, which effectively combines expansion AND penetration!

Penetration with a 158 gr seems to be adequate. Since my M36 is regulated for this weight, that's another good reason to stick with it.

Very well put!!!
Remember what some one else has said on this forum and it is very true,
shot placement is KING!! Next the bullet has to reach vitals .

According to 'physics', a bumblebee can't fly.

I guess all those cops who have shot bad guys with the GDSB load are lying about how much better it works than the old solid bullets. Acebow

IMHO, YOU CAN'T DO ANY BETTER THAN THE SPEER GOLD DOT, 135 GR, .38SPL +P OUT OF A 642. ITS DESIGNED FOR SHORT BARRELS, AND USES LOW FLASH POWDER. CHECK THE BALLISTIC GELATIN TESTS OF THE MYRIAD LOADS OF .38 SPL ON YOUTUBE, AND DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSION. IT WILL GET THE JOB DONE ! ! !

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I say go with Fed-Rem or Win +P 158 LSWC-HP If is expands great if not at least it will penetrate.

__________________
Support your Police, & NRA

(nr. 3) A 158 LSWC at 1000 FPS... from a 2" 642? Holy cow! Whatever his pressure equipment tells him, I don't think I would want to shoot very many of those from one of my guns. That is really "packing the mail!" Better have a great set of stocks if you plan to shoot those things - and maybe gloves, too!

THAT'S THE PROBLEM--NO EXPANSION AND OVER PENETRATION….

THE GOLD DOT DOES IT JUST RIGHT. RELIABLE EXPANSION WITH HUGE DAMAGE, PERFECT PENETRATION, AND TOTAL WEIGHT RETENTION. HERE'S JUST ONE OF THE TESTS OF THIS FINE AMMO. ALL OF THE TESTS MIRROR THESE RESULTS….(BTW--I DON'T HAVE SHARES IN SPEER. I'M JUST TRYING TO PUT MY FELLOW FORUM MEMBERS ONTO A GOOD THING.)

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

That is all and good IF you can handle these High-vel to +P loads.
I have a family member that went out and bought herself a 642
all on her own............

Now she is trying to learn to shoot it with all types of ammo from the 148gr light target to the 158gr LRN Federal standard loading. This last load is about all she can handle right now.
She way get to handle the recoil in this light revolver but she might just have to go down to the little 110gr if things don't work out.

Her husband and I will have a long talk with her if things don't look right.
No use having a gun that will get you hurt or killed, just because it is cute .

I like the newer lots of the 135gr Gold Dot. Early on, it showed big spreads in velocities and sometime pretty low readings over the chrono.
The +p FBI load from Buffalo Bore ran 950fps avg vel in my 442-2, no issues with bullet pull in it or my 18oz 242 over 5-7 shots. The std pressure version of the same load will penetrate deep and expand some in gello with 4 layers of denim at 850fps, so I feel pretty confident with 950-1000fps.
I personally didn't find recoil all that objectionable for the performance it brings, but some might. It did 1013fps in the 2.5" 242 and over 1100fps in a 4" mod 64. It's a solid defense load by any measure for a handgun.

That's moving right along. I have a little trouble with ".38 Special +P" in these 950-1000 FPS loads in 2-inch guns.

A western friend who is quite a bit beyond what I would call an "adventurous handloader." He has a 158 LSWC load with HS-6 that he speculates is in the high-20sK PSI range - probably around 27-28000 PSI. (FWIW, I believe he as the "knowledge base" to make a pretty fair guess about that.) That is way beyond .38 Special +P. His load clocks ~920 FPS in two different 442s that he owns.

I'd sure like to see the pressure data for anyone's load that claims 950-1000 FPS from a 2-inch gun - certified by an independent lab.

A GREAT ADDITION TO THE 642 IS THE CRIMSON TRACE, LASER GRIPS MODEL LG-405. IT IS PADDED WITH AN AIR CHAMBER ON THE BACKSTRAP, AND IS LONG ENOUGH TO AFFORD A GOOD PURCHASE. WEARING THESE, THE 642 BECOMES VERY MANAGEABLE. SPEER MAKES A "LAWMAN" TRAINING AND RANGE CARTRIDGE, WHICH IS A 135GR TOTAL METAL JACKET LOAD. ITS VERY CLEAN BURNING AND EXCELLENT FOR USE ON INDOOR RANGES. ACCORDING TO THE BOX, IT IS INTENDED FOR USE AS A TRAINING LOAD FOR LEO THAT WILL CARRY THE 135 GR GOLD DOT AS A DUTY LOAD. I HAVE BEEN SHOOTING THEM OUT OF MY 642, AND MY SNUBBY 686, WHICH ARE MY CARRY REVOLVERS STUFFED WITH GOLD DOTS. I WOULD GET A PAIR OF LG-405s ON YOUR WIFE'S 642, AND LET HER GET COMFORTABLE WITH THE LAWMAN TRAINING LOAD. SHE'LL GET PROFICIENT WITH THE SET UP, AND WILL NO DOUBT LOVE THE CONFIDENCE THAT THE LASER GRIP INSPIRES. SHE'LL BE GOOD TO GO…..

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__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Speaking of hot .38 loads---a coworker used to carry a Colt Detective Special as a BUG, and loaded his own ammo. Don't know what powder he used, but he had a very scientific method to determine the proper charge--whatever would fit in the case and still let him clamp the bullet in the case (yes, 'clamp', not 'crimp'). Made a big fireball when he shot the gun, and I have no idea why it never blew up in his hand.
I tried to diplomatically discuss the waste of powder, considering the amount that was burning outside the gun (in hopes he'd tone it down and maybe not blow his hand off sometime), but he'd just chuckle and carry on.
Sometimes I wonder what became of that gun after he died. Kinda hope he was buried with it.... Acebow

Sure, me too......but there have been handloads, even included in Handloading publications with pressure data that match or even exceed those numbers within SAAMI pressures.
So maybe his loads are that hot, but it doesn't exclude the possibility that other loads aren't.

Otreb, where can I find the data you are referring to? I would like to see a load like we are discussing that is within .38 +P pressure. Please cite the source and I will try to find it. Thanks.

Brian Pearce, Handloading magazine. I want to say it was issue # 264. He was using a Ruger LCR , Rimrock bullets and Power Pistol.

I like the fact that the Speer +P 135 gr GDHP ("short bbl") is a round that was specifically designed to maximize the .38's performance when shot from a snub-nosed revolver, along with the fact that NYPD has nothing but praise for this round after years of use on the streets. If it wasn't doing the job and doing it consistently, it would not continue to be the issued round. That's not marketing hype, that's reality.

The 158 gr LSWC and the 135 speer GDHP are both great performers. Choose your poison





Denim seems to plug them up and cause no expansion however... it is common in most rounds fired from snub nose revolvers.





Can't go wrong with either really

So...I bought a few of the 50 round boxes of the Speer 135gn+P short barrel stuff. I have shot this ammo before, and it is great stuff. But...I noticed the new ammo doesn't seem to have much crimp. I compared it to the ammo I bought a year or so ago and the older ammo definitely has a visible crimp. Anyone else notice this issue?
I bought it online, and have heard that at times these online ammo companys get ammo that LE agencies have resold, as it didn't meet their quality control standards.
I was happy to get this ammo, and they could have switched to a taper crimp as far as I know. But thought it was worth asking the question for those who haven't inspected their ammo, and/or may not have access to a good crimp die.

A few thoughts:

FBI protocols, expansion and penetration

A few posts have skirted the edges, but the FBI test protocols require 12" minimum to 18" maximum penetration in 10% ballistic gel with expansion to at least 1.5x the bullet's original diameter. Why 12" to 18"? Because the older 7" minimum didn't get the job done in a number of cases when bone, doors, windshields and other than face to face target aspects were encountered in the real world, and because anything over 18" poses an excessive risk of over penetration. LEOs already hit way too many innocent bystanders with their misses, it's nice not to also have them hitting them with their hits.

1.5x expansion is .5355" for a .357" bullet and that's the key element in .38 Special hollow point performance.

Some folks have stated that adequate expansion from a 2" barrel .38 Special is the problem, and they are correct, others have stated that with the limited energy available, expansion will reduce the penetration as there's no free lunch and they are also correct.

What's different now

Where technological advancement in hollow point design has helped the .38 Special is in designing hollow points that a) operate at 2" .38 Special velocities, b) expand in a more controlled/slower fashion, and c) don't over expand.

Some of today's hollow points use very aggressive petal designs that for the most part expand early, and then over expand to .58" to .62" and as a result they deliver less than the 12" minimum penetration that the FBI feels is prudent.

The 125 gr Hornady XTP was designed balance penetration and expansion to the FBI minimum in terms of mushrooming to 1.5 times the original diameter over a fairly wide range in velocity and it does that very well. What it does not do is open up in the very pretty star shaped mushroom with lots of jagged petals - it opens up in more of a "smoosh". But by staying with the minimum expansion figure it will meet the 12" minimum and usually exceed it by a couple inches in a 2" barrel with a +P load optimized for a shirt barrel.

The old 158gr LSWC-HP +P FBI load accomplished the same thing as the Hornady XTP in a +P load but to do so the bullet had to be swaged from very soft lead. The harder alloy you're likely to find today is optimized more toward not leading barrels and it's unfortunately less likely to expand.

The 125 gr Gold Dot +P is also designed with limited expansion in mind and it stays in the .560 range.

4 layer denim tests

All of the above hollow point rounds have a tendency to plug with denim in the 4 layer denim test designed to simulate heavy clothing and then penetrate to about 18-20".

That's not all bad in a .38 +P however as the bullet is less likely to over penetrate with enough force to seriously wound a bystander. Skin is flexible stuff and generally speaking the force required for a bullet to exit through the skin is equivalent to the force needed to penetrate about 4" of ballistic gel.

The Remington Golden Saber 125 gr +P tends to expand to around .62" but the brass jacket opens up more slowly so the hit on penetration is not as much as it would be otherwise. It generally under penetrates by about .5" to 1" from a 2" barrel, which is probably close enough to 12" not to make much difference in the real world.

On the other hand, it's one of the few hollow points that will reliably expand after 4 layers of denim from a short barrel revolver, so if you live in a cold climate, it is not a bad choice.

.380 ACP versus the .38 Special

Lots of shooters stand by the standard pressure .38 Special and then look down on the .380 ACP as not being adequate for self defense purposes. The devil however is in the details and in both cases adequate performance is very dependent on the load and the barrel length.

Standard pressure .38 Special loads won't get the job done in a 2" barrel and it's a mistake to attribute 4" ballistics to a 2" revolver. Even with a +P load, it takes a very well designed load to meet the bare gel penetration and expansion standards, and then you will still come up short on expansion in the 4 layer denim test.

Similarly, to get the job done in a .380 ACP takes the right load (the 90 gr XTP in one of a handful of loads). You also need a barrel that's at least 3.4" long. The 3.4" to 3.9" barrels in the PPK, PPK/S and PP series pistol are long enough to get it done with velocities in the 1000-1050 fps range. The short barrels in the micro sized .380s won't get it done.

Consequently, in both cases blanket statements just won't cut it and both calibers are on the ragged edge of the accepted minimum when it comes to pocket sized pistols.

False. Both calibers are below accepted minimum.

No trick bullet is going to make them acceptable.

FWIW dept:
Based entirely on others reports and gel tests, it was widely reported that the old RP was the only one to reliably expand from a 2" barrel, while the other brands did well in a 3" or longer barrel. However, recent observations indicate that RP has changed the alloy & expansion is now not so likely.

I take issue w/the statement that HP ammo is a waste of money in .38 b/c I've used it on the street during my LEO career. It works, it dropped the bad guy and saved me more than once.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

opinions vary quite a bit on this, so what do you think is the minimum?

Jeff Cooper said, "The only sure stopper is a supersonic telephone pole."

Pistols are marginal personal defense weapons. Rifles/shotguns are better. But pistols are handy, and can be carried concealed.

I say carry as much gun as you can handle. Bigger IS better. But if a .380 is what you can handle, carry it. I think trying to make a .357 magnum out of a .38 snubby is a fool's errand.

I think the better pistol SD cartridges start with .40 S&W. But I have carried .380, 9mm, .38 SPC, and 38 Super. Jacketed flat points, except for 38 SPC. I don't believe in hollow points for pistols. Good for rifles, but not pistols.

My opinion. Now where did I leave that Nomex suit?

Has anyone tried the Federal Nyclad 125 gr standard pressure ammo? Federal took over the Nyclad manufacture from S&W and improved the shape of the bullet from SWHP flat nose to a more rounded shape with a larger-diameter HP.

My understanding is that the original design benefits of Nyclad were to provide less-toxic bullets for indoor range use, AND the nylon coating reduced friction allowing higher velocity from 2" barrels (thus more energy) without having to use +P pressure levels. These loads were specifically intended for the Chief's Special & similar snubbies.

Maybe not a full Nomex suit, but shorts & a cup would be a good idea!