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04-22-2015, 09:52 AM
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Effective .38 caliber for Self Defense - S&W 642
Can anyone recommend a good round that meets FBI standards. Many suggested I look at Hornaday but after talking with them, they tested their ammo with a 4" barrel (S&W 642 is 1 & 7/8") and they got just under 13" with a standard load (Item #90310) and just under 11" with 110gr +P (Item #90311).
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04-22-2015, 10:21 AM
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Winchester's .130-gr. SXT Personal Protection has some pretty good reviews & I'm sold on their "Train & defend" series. They too have recieved some very good reviews...
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04-22-2015, 10:48 AM
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You could always go with the old "tried & true" 158-gr LSWC-HP +P. I have no idea what the FBI standards may be, but I still see it recommended even today, in spite of the more modern - and more expensive - lighter-weight jacketed loads.
If you are really concerned about penetration then a hard-cast SWC load at higher velocity is probably what is going to work best (as offered by the various "boutique" ammunition companies) but any 158-gr bullet at 800 FPS or better in an Airweight Chief is not going to be much fun to practice with.
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04-22-2015, 11:21 AM
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04-22-2015, 11:42 AM
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Buffalo Bore
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04-22-2015, 11:44 AM
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I am with KAEDAN and his recommendation for the Speer Gold Dot ammo. I have been involved with my departments ballistic tests which include Gel and Clothing, and Speer always performs at a top level.
There are many quality brands available to you, however, I have confidence in Speer, and this is based on a couple of real "been there done that" duty experiences.
When choosing ammo, many times one fails to consider weather conditions in the area they live. If you live in climate where heavy outer clothing is worn for most months of the year, compared to state where shorts and tee shirts are the norm, I believe penetration test results are very relevant. Forum members will give you good advice, and seeking their recommendations is wise. Best of Luck...........
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04-22-2015, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M29since14
You could always go with the old "tried & true" 158-gr LSWC-HP +P. I have no idea what the FBI standards may be, but I still see it recommended even today, in spite of the more modern - and more expensive - lighter-weight jacketed loads.
If you are really concerned about penetration then a hard-cast SWC load at higher velocity is probably what is going to work best (as offered by the various "boutique" ammunition companies) but any 158-gr bullet at 800 FPS or better in an Airweight Chief is not going to be much fun to practice with.
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Thanks for the replies. You are spot on about the retort on 158gr. I just put Hogue Tamer grips on and it has made a huge difference. Still very stout but manageable.
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04-22-2015, 12:30 PM
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I use the Speer +P 138 gr. HP Gold Dot in my 642 and 442 by preference. It's specifically designed for high performance in 2" barrels.
I do have some Winchester +P 158 gr. SWC "FBI load" ammo, purchased and conserved years ago when it was semi-available. I reserve it for use in all-steel J-frame .38s that are rated for +P. Some will say it's OK to use it in the lightweights, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. That heavy bullet launched violently from the lightweight 642 could result in bullet pull of the remaining rounds in the cylinder through inertia, jamming the cylinder and leaving you with a useless gun.
John
P.S. (late edit) I'm talking about the original hot stuff, not the more recent apparently loaded-down stuff of the same name.
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04-22-2015, 12:40 PM
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FWIW, I've been carrying & using the 158 +P round in my airweight Js for years and never had a problem w/bullet pull or jump.
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04-22-2015, 12:43 PM
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Based on using a .38 snubby and wanting to meet FBI numbers, these loads are highly recommended:
- Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain .38 Special +P
- Cor Bon DPX 110 grain .38 Special +P
- Buffalo Bore 158 grain .38 Special Standard Pressure
This questions gets asked a lot. A search will yield great reading and debate.
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04-22-2015, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shottist
Buffalo Bore
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I'll second that.
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04-22-2015, 01:35 PM
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When I was carrying my 642 I was using Speer 135 grain short barrel + P's in it. I'm sill using them in the 640 Pro I'm carrying now.
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04-22-2015, 01:41 PM
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04-22-2015, 02:46 PM
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Remington 130 FMJ-FN. Penetration above all else. Plus some meplat.
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04-22-2015, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old cop
FWIW, I've been carrying & using the 158 +P round in my airweight Js for years and never had a problem w/bullet pull or jump.
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Yup. It's the ultra lightweight Js shooting hot .357 that have had bullet jump, not the .38s.
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04-22-2015, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamecock
Remington 130 FMJ-FN. Penetration above all else. Plus some meplat...
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OP's looking for something that passes FBI tests...
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04-22-2015, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapworth
OP's looking for something that passes FBI tests...
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FBI test is for penetration.
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04-22-2015, 04:08 PM
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Another vote for Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel load. It has been doing a fine job in the real world for as long as it has been available. Not much good comes out of New York City, but their officers who still carry short revolvers use this, and reportedly they've been very happy with it, getting good responses from bad guys shot with the load.
Any of the DPX .38 loads by CorBon is gonna be good; just more expensive and sometimes harder to find.
For non-boutique loads, the old SWCHP loads are still quite effective; also I've heard good things about Remington 125gr +P SJHP. Kinda hot out of my snubby, like a 'light' .357. I carry those when I'm out of Gold Dot loads.
I don't get real excited about FBI guidelines. Remember, these are the guys who went from 9mm to 10mm, weren't tough enough to handle the recoil, so down-loaded them to keep from hurting the agents' delicate fingers, then went to .40S&W, and now are (I think) going back to 9mm. Only good thing from all that mess is the development of .40S&W. Acebow
Last edited by Acebow; 04-22-2015 at 04:10 PM.
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04-22-2015, 04:09 PM
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I would've recommended Remington's version of the tried and true LSWCHP, but anecdotal evidence from around the web suggests the new HTP version uses a harder alloyed bullet at reduced velocities. In essence, it now suffers the same problems as Winchester's version when fired fom short barrels.
Also, according to Speer's own data, their GDSB load actually fails the FBI bare gel test, albeit by a small margin. According to their LE poster, it penetrates about 11" or so.
If memory serves correctly, the FBI protocol also mandates 1.5x expansion. It's not just about penetration and any modicum of expansion.
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04-22-2015, 05:15 PM
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I wouldn't worry too much about FBI Standards, you want a load you can shoot accurately and fast. A hit with any 38 caliber bullet beats a miss..
There is a lot to be said for 158 grain lead SWCHP loads either standard velocity or +P. The Federal Nyclad would be a great choice here. Get a sampling of ammo and go shooting, accurate multiple hits win the day. The penetration will be fine! My J-frame has 148 grain full wadcutters.... Why ? Because I can shoot them very well with very fast follow ups to boot.
Gary
Last edited by gwpercle; 04-22-2015 at 05:21 PM.
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04-22-2015, 05:25 PM
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You have a lot of good choices....
Just make sure that it is something that you can adequately train with and control to repeat shots and hit the target. Personally, I think Gold Dots are great. I have a compact 9mm that I have loaded just enough that I can shoot about 50 rounds before my hand and wrist says 'quit'.
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04-22-2015, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sellersm
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I would call and make sure these are short barrel. I've only bought them in twenty round boxes but they always said short barrel on them like the picture below.
Last edited by Jim1392; 04-23-2015 at 12:17 PM.
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04-22-2015, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1392
I would call and make sure these are short barrel.
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They are. I've yet to see a "short barrel" moniker on a Law Enforcement 50-count box.
If you're still skeptical, go to le.atk.com and compare the P/N shown on the box to ATK's own list of available Gold Dot loads. It's the real deal.
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04-22-2015, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoMF
They are. I've yet to see a "short barrel" moniker on a Law Enforcement 50-count box.
If you're still skeptical, go to le.atk.com and compare the P/N shown on the box to ATK's own list of available Gold Dot loads. It's the real deal.
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That's my experience as well... But a phone call may ensure some peace of mind!
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04-22-2015, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sellersm
That's my experience as well... But a phone call may ensure some peace of mind!
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This is true. It can't hurt to call.
To be honest, I'm really surprised this batch hasn't sold out yet. Usually, when they get a shipment of the GDSB load in, it doesn't stay in stock for very long.
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04-22-2015, 08:32 PM
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Contrary to what many have stated above, I wouldn't recommend the Buffalo Bore 158 gr. +p in an Airweight .38 special as they will jump crimp. I shot two cylinders full a couple of weeks back and saw the 5th round jump crimp twice. Buffalo Bore even states this on their site. I'm currently carrying the aforementioned Speer 135 gr. +p short barrel rounds in my 442 while I wait on a shipment of the Buffalo Bore standard pressure to show up on my doorstep.
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04-22-2015, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamecock
FBI test is for penetration.
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Yes, and expansion, too. FMJ isn't going to expand, and is at greater risk for over penetrating. Too, because of FMJ profile, is less apt to crush or tear when passing through, and can end up making a wound that spreads then collapses on itself, diminishing chances for rapid blood loss.
FMJ can get the job done, but modern hollow points go a long way to solving the terminal performance problems of FMJ; there's a reason why zero law enforcement agencies use it and FBI doesn't test it.
And placement above all else.
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04-22-2015, 09:12 PM
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I use 148 gr full wadcutters. Make a nice big hole.
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04-22-2015, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHancock
Contrary to what many have stated above, I wouldn't recommend the Buffalo Bore 158 gr. +p in an Airweight .38 special as they will jump crimp. I shot two cylinders full a couple of weeks back and saw the 5th round jump crimp twice. Buffalo Bore even states this on their site.
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I don't doubt your experience of crimp jump, but to be clear, Buffalo Bore does not advise against using their .38+P in Airweights; they advise against using their .357 in light alloy revolvers.
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04-22-2015, 10:00 PM
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Mr. Hapworth I stand corrected! I could have sworn I read that line in the .38 special description. I also use their .357 magnum 158 grain and must have gotten my wires crossed, sorry for the misinformation. I'm a fan of BB's ammo and hated to find those results, but better in the range than in the street.
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04-23-2015, 12:13 AM
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If one wants to use wadcutters as a defense load, I'd suggest checking out Buffalo Bore's Hard Cast version; they're more harder, and will give much better penetration than the standard-velocity, slow poke, softer lead target loads. Acebow
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04-23-2015, 02:46 AM
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I use Oregon Laser Cast Silver bullets. If silver bullets are good enough for the Lone Ranger they are good enough for me. Larry
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04-23-2015, 04:35 AM
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No one mentioned Federal Hydra-Shok ammo. Is there something wrong with it?
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04-23-2015, 06:11 AM
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The two loads I use in a 2" Chief's are 158 grain Buffalo Bore LSWCHP-GC +P and the Speer 135 grain +P Short Barrel Gold Dot.
While the Heavy BB bullet has much more foot pounds of energy and a much faster muzzle velocity, I've been gaining quite a bit of respect from the Speer GD lately. The almost perfect expansion and consistent performance is hard to deny and the recoil is quite a bit more mild than the BB which will definitely make follow up shots faster.
Anybody who finds the recoil from the BB load objectionable or slowing them down on follow-up shots would be well served using the Speer 135 grain short barrel GD. IMHO they are both great loads and are better than 95% of all other .38 Special offerings shot from 2" barrels.
The velocities and performance of the old standard FBI loadings from the "big three" have been watered down and IMHO no longer perform reliably. When they were loaded to their full potential they did perform well, but the lots I've tested lately are nothing less than DISMAL and would no longer load the into my Chief's for SD/HD.
Last edited by chief38; 04-23-2015 at 06:15 AM.
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04-23-2015, 06:16 AM
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An often overlooked load that does very well in tests in the old Remington 125 grain +P Golden Saber. Check some of the tests on YouTube and you will find nearly universal results. It is a hot load though and I put Hogue Tamer grips on my 642 and 442. The bullet shape also lends itself to faster reloading than the rather blunt-nosed Gold Dot.
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04-23-2015, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapworth
Yes, and expansion, too. FMJ isn't going to expand, and is at greater risk for over penetrating.
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Now that's funny. The problem is ADEQUATE penetration.
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04-23-2015, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamecock
Now that's funny. The problem is ADEQUATE penetration.
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Funny is suggesting a cheap plinker's load for self-defense.
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04-23-2015, 11:00 AM
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How wide is an average man from chest to back? How deep are heart and lungs from the front of chest? 10"-16"-20"? Questions to think about in the real world. Be Safe,
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04-23-2015, 12:09 PM
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vipermd;
test also take in the possibility of striking the BG's arms and
bad angles that are not frontal shots, which call for the 12-18" penetration in the FBI tests.
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04-23-2015, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermd
How wide is an average man from chest to back? How deep are heart and lungs from the front of chest? 10"-16"-20"? Questions to think about in the real world. Be Safe,
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The 12"-18" penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin stipulated by FBI tests accounts for obstacles a bullet might have to overcome in different scenarios; a round that, say, is meant for a clean shot into a target's center mass, but due to happenstance first clips through a leather jacket sleeve, fractures the tip of the elbow bone, and only then enters center mass still needs enough terminal performance to penetrate to an organ or artery.
The gelatin approximates the density of the various types of tissue in a human body combined; the required depth is to assure performance whether the hit is ideal or less than.
It isn't meant to indicate that there's 18" from the surface of a man's chest to his heart...
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04-23-2015, 12:54 PM
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So first, Sgammo is awesome. I've ordered from them several times (it's where I get my gold dot ammo) and they are always on top of it. Buying to shipment time is sometimes a little slow, but they keep their prices low by having a small operation.
Second, 135 grain GD is the same round as the short barrel 135 grain, just a different package. It is the same stuff issued to several agencies for their weapons or backups.
Third, I use the 125 grain because the testing I have seen, and the informal I have done, are darn near identical between the two loads, and the 125 grain is much easier to get. Plus, all of my 38 specials love the round and shoot it well.
Fourth, badge130 is right on the money. The 125 grain Golden saber is highly underrated. My own informal unscientific tests are good, this guy is a little more scientific https://youtu.be/nRe6BzIqu6U
The FBI tests are great, but they are not the end all. As far as I know there is NO 38 special load that passes the test. I keep a 38 special at my bedside most nights, and have seen what the round will do to flesh. It's not infallible by any means, but no round is, and it's far easier to shoot than a serbu shorty with slugs.
Just my $0.02
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04-23-2015, 03:37 PM
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The 38 special is a marginal defensive cartridge, especially out of the short barreled 642. Loading some super wizz bang bullet isn't going to change that. In fact, it will hurt it. The expanding bullet will further reduce the already inadequate penetration. You can spend 4X dollars for wizz bang; the mfg appreciate it.
"Hollow point bullets in a 38 spc is a waste of money." You can look it up.
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04-23-2015, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapworth
It isn't meant to indicate that there's 18" from the surface of a man's chest to his heart...
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I understand the protocol and just wanted people to think about how much penetration would be required to reach heart and lungs. From the sternum to the heart is only about 2", lung is less. I am not questioning the fact of being ready for all options, just that a a CCI Gold Dot that enters 12" expanded is quite a remarkable load, compared to a standard velocity round nose lead bullet. Yes I have seen the large, intoxicated, angry, male that took 2 bullets to abdomen ( required resection of bowel), 1 to upper right chest( pneumothorax ) and one each to arm and leg opposite sides of the body. The round was fired from a 2" SW 36, 158 gr lead round nose standard velocity, yes he lived, he also nearly beat the shooter to death with a chair leg from a smashed wooden chair. Leg,arm, chest wounds all exited. Be Safe,
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04-23-2015, 04:53 PM
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hornady critical defence ftx 110 grain penetrates heavy clothing and has a more consistent expansion. 158 grain could go thru bad guy and hit person behind.
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04-23-2015, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoMF
I would've recommended Remington's version of the tried and true LSWCHP, but anecdotal evidence from around the web suggests the new HTP version uses a harder alloyed bullet at reduced velocities. In essence, it now suffers the same problems as Winchester's version when fired fom short barrels.
Also, according to Speer's own data, their GDSB load actually fails the FBI bare gel test, albeit by a small margin. According to their LE poster, it penetrates about 11" or so.
If memory serves correctly, the FBI protocol also mandates 1.5x expansion. It's not just about penetration and any modicum of expansion.
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I have read the same thing, and I'm glad I stocked up on the Remingtons a couple of years ago before the change.
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04-23-2015, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sellersm
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Thanks for posting this! I just ordered some.
__________________
--Rick
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04-23-2015, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamecock
The 38 special is a marginal defensive cartridge, especially out of the short barreled 642. Loading some super wizz bang bullet isn't going to change that. In fact, it will hurt it. The expanding bullet will further reduce the already inadequate penetration. You can spend 4X dollars for wizz bang; the mfg appreciate it.
"Hollow point bullets in a 38 spc is a waste of money." You can look it up.
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And by all means, spend less on FMJ ball -- the bad guy will appreciate it.
All service handgun calibers can be described as marginal for defensive use. But significant improvements over the last twenty years in bullet design and powder blends have radically changed the equation for hollow point effectiveness; tests bear this out.
From the original FBI load to Nyclads to Speer GD SB, Cor Bon DPX and Buffalo Bore, for quite some time penetration and expansion have been achievable in .38 Special, including from snubbies.
Fine if you're not interested in the trade-offs of a .38 hollow point -- I'm not interested in the chance of overpenetration and lousy wound channel of FMJ -- but it's absurd to say hollow point .38 Special is a a waste of money when evidence to the contrary is abundant.
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04-23-2015, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acebow
If one wants to use wadcutters as a defense load, I'd suggest checking out Buffalo Bore's Hard Cast version; they're more harder, and will give much better penetration than the standard-velocity, slow poke, softer lead target loads. Acebow
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I just bought some of these, but haven't shot them yet. Have you tried them?
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04-23-2015, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapworth
I don't doubt your experience of crimp jump, but to be clear, Buffalo Bore does not advise against using their .38+P in Airweights; they advise against using their .357 in light alloy revolvers.
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The Buffalo Bore 158 gr. SWCHP+P w/ Gas Check is a formidable load. I would suggest shooting a box first to see if you like it. The recoil is very heavy out of an Airweight (as mentioned above).
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04-23-2015, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermd
How wide is an average man from chest to back? How deep are heart and lungs from the front of chest? 10"-16"-20"? Questions to think about in the real world. Be Safe,
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But that ASSUMES you will have a perfect frontal shot, with no obstacles (such as arms) or heavy clothing to interfere. I'm not that confident of a perfect world.
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