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  #51  
Old 08-07-2015, 05:11 PM
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Why does 147 gr 9mm have a bad rep? Why does 147 gr 9mm have a bad rep? Why does 147 gr 9mm have a bad rep? Why does 147 gr 9mm have a bad rep? Why does 147 gr 9mm have a bad rep?  
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Originally Posted by BaldEagle1313 View Post
Well, I'm certainly not going to go into all that technical stuff. The reason I use 147gr in my 9mm is that I'm more accurate with it than I am with 115 or 124, and it's that way with every single 9mm I own - 439, 469, 908, 910, 5903. So it's probably the way I shoot that causes it, but an accurate shot is the highest priority.
I agree, actually.
My priorities for handgun carry have always been:

1. Keep a mindset that is alert to your surroundings at all times.
2. Carry what you know you will carry every day.
3. Make sure you can shoot it effectively (meaning accurate first, fast second).
4. Make sure you know the manual of arms inside and out (reloads, malfunctions, etc.).
5. If you have to shoot, shoot until the threat stops. Never assume that a "one shot stop" even exists, and practice layered responses (head and or pelvic girdle, don't rely on 'A Zone' hits only).
6. Get hollowpoint ammo that is flawlessly reliable in your weapon.
7. Get the most powerful hollowpoint ammo you can shoot rapidly and accurately.

The ammo argument is last on my list. It is very important, and to me I have strong opinions based upon what history I know, so yeah I rant a bit about it. Apologies for gobbling bandwidth, but it is a fairly important issue to me. But it is an issue that follows after several others.

Without awareness, control and weapons skill, no exotic uber-deathray bullet will do you any good.

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Old 08-07-2015, 05:50 PM
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I'm not a physicist, but I understand kinetic energy. A projectile travelling at a slow velocity will impact an object with calculable energy, delivering calculable joules (or foot-pound if you prefer) of energy into that object. The same projectile with the same mass travelling at a much greater velocity will posses a much higher level of kinetic energy, therefore delivering more joules of energy into a target. While the energy itself is not the wounding mechanism, the kinetic energy possessed by a projectile is the reason the projectile will enter the subject and cause wounding. It is the relationship of kinetic energy and the projectile in which it resides that results in wounding. Effective bullet design does seem like witchcraft , but one fact is certain - without energy, a projectile is simply sitting around doing nothing. Potential energy is worthless, kinetic energy stops potential killers.
Understanding kinetic energy is worthless here. I am not a physician, or even a big game hunter, but I know enough physiology to know that a slice across the carotid artery with a straight razor transfers very little energy, while a medicine ball in the chest multiple times tranfers quite a lot, yet the low-energy approach can be quite lethal, while the high-energy approach probably cannot. The very idea that kinetic energy is THE proper criterion of cartridge effectiveness for controlling felonious behavior is simply ridiculous, as can be seen from the two extreme examples. I am sure that the referenced article explained this and the intermediary values at great length.

People don't collapse from KE intake. They generally collapse from dramatic blood loss or CNS destruction. Occasionally they collapse from the destruction of supporting limbs, or from psychological/psychosomatic reasons not easily correlated with much of anything.

KE? Fageddaboutit.

P.S. As to be expected, the referenced article gave better examples than I did. But the conclusion is the same:

KE? Fageddaboutit.

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Old 08-08-2015, 12:19 AM
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There is a compromise out there for people who have longer-barreled 9mms, and that is the 135gr. Hornady Critical Duty +P. It's not loaded very hot, but from the few chronograph results I've seen, it starts to pick up steam as the barrels go over the 4 1/2-inch mark. Too many of the tests on-line are from very short-barreled guns, which is what Hornady says this load is not really intended for. I wish I had a chronograph, as I have a Glock 17L with a six-inch barrel. Based on other guns, I'll take a wild guess that 1225-1250 fps is what the long Glock would get.
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:33 AM
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Default Just to touch on the 1986 FBI fiasco....

I studied this pretty carefully and decided that it didn't matter what handgun round they were using because what the FBI really needed was rifles or carbines. I can't cite anybody here since I'm my own expert but I feel that I'm at least able to look at problems objectively.
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by V0OBWxZS16 View Post
BB57,

Marshall and Sanow do NOT have a database of shootings. The provided analyses demonstrate that quite sufficiently.

Ballistic gelatin has been verified against real shootings at least as far back as 1991.
Performance of the Winchester 9mm 147 Grain Subsonic Jacketed Hollow Point Bullet in Human Tissue and Tissue Simulant by Eugene Wolberg, Senior Firearms Criminologist at the San Diego Police Crime Laboratory

Did you really just accuse Wolberg, MacPherson, Roberts, and Fackler of being "internet experts"?
First off, how do you know, personally, what info Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow have or don't have? You're just regurgitating accusations made by members and followers of the now defunct IWBA. Of course the IWBA people will say anything to defame and debunk M&S because they have a monitary interest in eliminating ANYONE who would dare to contradict them. Millions of $$ in Govt grants and contracts from LEA's and the DoD is nothing to sneeze at. That's these "ballistican's" gravy train, and anyone who disagrees with them must be dealt with with extreme prejudice.

Secondly, I'm glad you brought up the subject of Eugene Wolberg's article which is fraught with fraud. Wolberg used bullets that were literally cherry-picked in order to prove his hypothesis! If he had used ANY bullet that had failed to expand, under penetrated or over penetrated, this would have invalidated his hypothesis. Even your beloved Hero Gary Roberts admitted on the Beretta Forum that Wolberg used cherry-picked bullets that were provided by San Diego's ME/Coroner for his paper!

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Old 08-08-2015, 03:38 AM
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I understand people feeling doubting ballistic block tests. The ammunition makers indeed develop ammunition to do well in the tests. It may or may not be an accurate representation in tissue and bone.

However I believe it's pretty close since muscle tissue , fat and bone all have measurable density.

But I think some maybe looking at the test results as if they were an actual test on tissue. They of course are not. They are a methodology to test one against the other vs a standard

I think it's safe to assume that a round that expands and penetrates a ballistic gel block the suggest 12-16 inches and can do so piercing denim as well is a superior round to one that cannot.

The way I look at it is its a vs b vs c etc.

Even the Hollywood and the earlier Miami shootouts all had one thing in common. The rounds did not hit anything that quickly incapacitated the BG.

Even though the postmortem reports stated some of the wounds were fatal just not immediately.
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Old 08-08-2015, 03:45 AM
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If velocity is not a factor then why is the .357 Mag. better than the .38 Spcl.? Would you rather be shot with a 40 gr. bullet from a .220 Swift or a .22 LR? Of course velocity can be a very relevant factor. ISP found that out in the 80's with BPLE and the Win. Ranger 115 gr. +p+. Nonetheless, every generation has to "reinvent" the wheel.

Remember first & foremost that an ammo company's No. 1 goal is to sell as much ammo as possible. Everything else is secondary. I still shave with one double edge blade razor as disposables with two, three, four & even five blades don't shave any better & usually worse, despite what Gillette tells you.
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Old 08-08-2015, 06:15 AM
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I'm not convinced that 357 is better than 38 special. 220 swift is a rifle round with velocity sufficient to cause hydrostatic shock. I use a 4 blade shick Quattro and it shaves my face significantly better.
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Old 08-08-2015, 07:00 AM
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I'm not convinced that 357 is better than 38 special.
"Better" is a subjective term. A .357 is not "better" to your hand in an airweight j-frame. But speaking in terms of the projectile going downrange only- it's better.
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Old 08-08-2015, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Darkenfast View Post
There is a compromise out there for people who have longer-barreled 9mms, and that is the 135gr. Hornady Critical Duty +P. It's not loaded very hot, but from the few chronograph results I've seen, it starts to pick up steam as the barrels go over the 4 1/2-inch mark. Too many of the tests on-line are from very short-barreled guns, which is what Hornady says this load is not really intended for. I wish I had a chronograph, as I have a Glock 17L with a six-inch barrel. Based on other guns, I'll take a wild guess that 1225-1250 fps is what the long Glock would get.
This is good info for the duty-gun crowd, but I would suspect the majority off CCWers carry a pistol with a bbl of 4" or less. I carry 147s in my 3913/14 pistols because they hit where the sights are. If the 115s did that and the 147s didn't, then 115 is what I would carry (and prefer, due to the difference in cost.) All of my plinking and adjustable sight 9mms are sighted for 115 standard pressure.
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Old 08-08-2015, 08:46 AM
Kframerbluvr Kframerbluvr is offline
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Originally Posted by CTG_COLLECTOR View Post
What started it was the 1986 FBI Miami incident. After the smoke had cleared the FBI thoroughly damned the 9mm 115STHP as being the reason why their agents got killed and shot up.

After the FBI held their symposium to pick their ammo, the FBI decided to issue the Winchester Olin Super Match 147JHP Subsonic Type-L ammo to their agents. Other agencies jumped onto the "Me Too" Band Wagon and started using the same ammo with very unimpressive results in real life.

The Win OSM Type-L bullet & loading was never designed for use out of handguns, and the first generation 147 loads from Federal and Remington didn't do any better.

That was the start of the "bad rap" for the 9mm 147JHP loads.
This was our first duty load for our new G17s in the late '80s. We never had any shootings with it, so cannot comment on that. These were the cleanest burning loads I have ever encountered. The empty cases had no soot or discoloration on them after firing.
I had forgotten about this until I found a small stash of this stuff at the house and shot it at the range. Still shot very clean. Due to all the bad press this load got, I still have a phobia about 147 grain 9mm loads and prefer the Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ load on the rare occasion that I carry a 9mm. YMMV.
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Old 08-08-2015, 12:07 PM
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First off, how do you know, personally, what info Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow have or don't have? You're just regurgitating accusations made by members and followers of the now defunct IWBA. Of course the IWBA people will say anything to defame and debunk M&S because they have a monitary interest in eliminating ANYONE who would dare to contradict them. Millions of $$ in Govt grants and contracts from LEA's and the DoD is nothing to sneeze at. That's these "ballistican's" gravy train, and anyone who disagrees with them must be dealt with with extreme prejudice.

Secondly, I'm glad you brought up the subject of Eugene Wolberg's article which is fraught with fraud. Wolberg used bullets that were literally cherry-picked in order to prove his hypothesis! If he had used ANY bullet that had failed to expand, under penetrated or over penetrated, this would have invalidated his hypothesis. Even your beloved Hero Gary Roberts admitted on the Beretta Forum that Wolberg used cherry-picked bullets that were provided by San Diego's ME/Coroner for his paper!
I know nothing about wound ballistics. And I know very little about the agenda of so called "experts" in the field.

Over a period of ten years I found Marshall to contradict himself many times on his forum. But there was also good information to be learned.

I have also read Faklers findings.

Since I don't know who's full of it and who isn't, I decided to listen to those currently in LE.

And, I was called to put high security locks on the ammo storage rooms of two local police departments. When I looked inside there where two brands in multiple calibers. Speer Gold Dot and Federal HST.

I carry HST. And I don't worry about it.
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Old 08-08-2015, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by petepeterson View Post
This is good info for the duty-gun crowd, but I would suspect the majority off CCWers carry a pistol with a bbl of 4" or less. I carry 147s in my 3913/14 pistols because they hit where the sights are. If the 115s did that and the 147s didn't, then 115 is what I would carry (and prefer, due to the difference in cost.) All of my plinking and adjustable sight 9mms are sighted for 115 standard pressure.
Yes, the short barrels are quite the rage. I don't carry, but if I did, my old Browning High Power simply disappears inside the waistband AND has a 4 5/8-inch barrel. That said, I think the short-barreled nines beat the heck out of a J-frame revolver! I just like the longer ones, cuz I'm a wimp and proud of it! My 17L is a joy to shoot.
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Old 08-08-2015, 06:19 PM
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...Since I don't know who's full of it and who isn't, I decided to listen to those currently in LE...

There is a retired IL State Police Captain who investigated tons of shooting in the 80's & 90's for the ISP. His thoughts are a primary source and conclusive in their results. I couldn't find his posts here on this forum, but he made a long reply to someone on another forum back in Jan. that is worth quoting here:

Quote:

We carried the 9mm until 2000 when we went to .40. Olin was an IL company located in E Alton IL. We worked closely with Olin and they developed the W-W115 JHP+P+ which pretty much duplicated the BPLE. When you buy over 7 million rds a year from a company they will work with you to give you what you want. The Olin plant isn't that far from our main range. IL statute says preferential contracts go to IL companies if all else is substantial equal therefore it was W-W load. So we carried the W-W load for the last few years we issued the 9mm.
Then in 1999 (I was in charge of our R&D then) we got money from the legislature to get new guns. Our 5904/6904s were getting close to where they were going to need night sights and in the past we've been able to get all new guns for next to nothing by swapping in our old duty guns. The boss declared the new guns would be in .40. The FBI had just gone to the .40 not long before. He was a grad of the FBI Senior Management Course and his son was just hired as an FBI SA. So he had a lot of connections with the FBI. We still were having good success with the 9mm but when the boss says we're going to .40 because the FBI carries .40 then we go to .40. The boss doesn't need a reason or explain why, he's the boss. What he did let us do was pick our guns. We did extensive tested over a year of 15 different makes/models (all .40). We ended up with Glock even tho Glock came out 3rd, albetit the top 3 were pretty closely ranked. Sig, S&W, and then Glock. Glock substantially underbid Sig and S&W.
Had we stayed with the 9 it would be nothing but personal speculation if we'd have stayed with the 115. At that time the 147 was mostly pushed as the subsonic rd and wasn't all the great of a performer. I did 7 investigations for another agency using the 147 Subsonic and it wasn't cutting it. The mid-weights were still being played with by the manufacturers and not yet a lot of street cred. The 115 had worked for us for quite a few years. I know we would not have gone with the 147 Subsonic however 147s today aren't the same as the 147s back then just as the mid-weights are more developed than back then.
Contrary to what some have written our selection of guns and ammo isn't decided by cheapest bidder. Our people along with the ammo makers run lengthy testing. They do a lot of testing then review the performance after we have shootings.
An example is when we were issued the 115 Silvertip which only lasted a couple of months. It was supposedly the latest and greatest. Then in 1980 2 of our Troops were in a shootout with a outlaw biker near Joliet IL. The biker was wearing a leather vest over a leather jacket and he was a fair size guy. He was hit a number of times, can't recall exact number 11-13, COM in various locations. None of the rds went deep enough to get to vitals. He returned fire with a 5 shot snubbie and when his gun was empty he jumped on his motorcycle and fell over dead. He didn't die from any bullet wound. He died of a heart attack due to his poor life style and the stress of the situation. Nearly all his arteries were clogged so he was a heart attack waiting to happen. As soon as we found the lack of performance of the Silvertip the dept called everyone whether working or off duty and told to dump the Silvertip, new ammo would be coming. There was an emergency purchase and we carried the Federal 115 BP for a few months. During that time the dept worked with Federal and they developed the BPLE. That is the history of where the BPLE came from and why. Then working with Olin their JHP+P+ was developed.
Move ahead a few years. The FBI began carrying autos in 9mm. They had developed what was known as the Computerman Model. The science of their computer told them the best defensive rd was rapid expansion/limited penetration. Their science told them the 115 Silvertip was the best rd to meet that criteria. A couple of our range guys loaded up with the biker shooting file from 1980 and some of our other subsequent shootings and drove to Quantico where they met with the FTU. They went thru our results with the Silvertip and how when presented with heavy leather the Silvertip opened too quickly and lacked sufficient penetration. They went thru the shooting performances we'd had with the BPLE. The FBI blew them off. They weren't interested in street results. Their science and computer man model told them differently. So our guys packed up and came home. Then came Miami for the FBI. Unfortunately they learned the hard reality of what we had found 6 yrs prior.
Science and theory is whatever a person/group wants to make it to be. Too often a group will pick the results they expect and then develop their theory to support what they want. They then either fail to follow thru with testing their theory in the real world or they ignore results. My first major in college was physics. Theories in the classroom are no more than theories. Testing in the lab is to see if the theory is worth putting into practice. It's not until the theory is put into actual working model can the results of a theory be fully seen. Then after the results of the actual use it's time to go back and tweak the theory if needed. This is basic science 101. What amateurs and uninformed do is develop the theory and assume it's correct without real world results and they ignore the results because it conflicts with their theory. They refuse to admit their theory was wrong.

Unquote.
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Old 08-08-2015, 06:26 PM
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Thanks boge that was very interesting.
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Old 08-08-2015, 07:16 PM
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I think one of the reasons 9mm in the older years had a bad rap was because guys were just starting to get into semi autos and what happened officers in uniform who were used to six rounds now had more rounds in the mag, and it's typical of when I see a new shooter get handed a semi auto .22 rifle. There's an instant urge to unload those rounds as fast as one can. I can tell you from experience I have seen instructors try out getting rounds downrange on the targets with inexperienced handgun shooters with results that are to be expected. Groups open up wider and wider. Bill Jordan said it best, "Speed is fine, accuracy is final". Yes rounds need to go downrange but if you put them all there at once and the target is not getting hit where it needs to, well, don't blame the performance of the round or the gun. I saw a lot of shooters when they started using our Glock 21 .45 ACPs who had never even fired a handgun in their lives shoot disastrously at first because they were told to fire five rounds downrange for example and those five rounds sounded like full auto. Sure the .45 ACP is perhaps better than the 9mm, but you know what, the 9mm has been around a long time. It's no slouch and it will get the job done.
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Old 08-09-2015, 12:01 PM
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Thanks Boge...I needed a smile today...Bob
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Old 08-09-2015, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CTG_COLLECTOR View Post
First off, how do you know, personally, what info Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow have or don't have? You're just regurgitating accusations made by members and followers of the now defunct IWBA. Of course the IWBA people will say anything to defame and debunk M&S because they have a monitary interest in eliminating ANYONE who would dare to contradict them. Millions of $$ in Govt grants and contracts from LEA's and the DoD is nothing to sneeze at. That's these "ballistican's" gravy train, and anyone who disagrees with them must be dealt with with extreme prejudice.
I know what info Marshall & Sanow have. I followed them for many years, bought their expensive books and, before that, followed all their magazine articles. If you have all that, you know that they have disappearing data.

In addition, their criteria for accepting data in the first place was very selective. This produces weird results. Well into their studies, Sanow took some courses in statistics, perhaps in a junior college or something; I don't really know. At any rate, he learned to perform mathematical operations on data, presumably according to established rules. What he didn't understand was that the underlying math applied to data with a certain kind of distribution, generally random, and produced results certainly not valid for cherry-picked data. Yet that is EXACTLY what Marshall and Sanow were working with.

BTW, this represents NO dishonesty on their part. Marshall was a policeman, not a mathematician, and Sanow probably was never presented with an emphasis on the mathematical underpinning of statistics, or paid more attention to what he was going to be tested on. BOTH were trying to use real-world info to isolate actual performance from complex theoretical predictions. This is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Unfortunately, they weren't quite up to it.

I personally believe that Roberts et al have more useful information. I know nothing of financial incentive concerning ANY of the parties, and have no reason to believe that anyone is doing anything other than his honest best to answer the questions.

I believe that if one were to follow some of the threads on www.accuratereloading.com on effectiveness of bullets on big game, one would come to a new appreciation of bullet placement, chance/divine providence, and maybe even the FBI protocol.

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Old 08-09-2015, 10:23 PM
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That's why I just use whatever the local LE use. They use gold dots they like them.
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Old 08-10-2015, 01:22 AM
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We have well documented cases that illustrate the failures of the under penetrating jhp's. Would a fully penetrating FMJ or a slightly expanded 147gr jhp have ended ended the FBI Miami fight or the Illinois biker shooting?
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Old 08-10-2015, 01:45 AM
V0OBWxZS16 V0OBWxZS16 is offline
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Originally Posted by xcop View Post
147 grain why did you change your handle to V0OBWxZS16?
???

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Originally Posted by badge View Post
Really,..? I've known Mr. Marshall for going on 38 years. Honest to a fault, been there and done that. He has probable forgotten more about ballistics and shootings than most folks recall.
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Originally Posted by CTG_COLLECTOR View Post
First off, how do you know, personally, what info Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow have or don't have? You're just regurgitating accusations made by members and followers of the now defunct IWBA. Of course the IWBA people will say anything to defame and debunk M&S because they have a monitary interest in eliminating ANYONE who would dare to contradict them. Millions of $$ in Govt grants and contracts from LEA's and the DoD is nothing to sneeze at. That's these "ballistican's" gravy train, and anyone who disagrees with them must be dealt with with extreme prejudice.
One character witness for Marshall. One character accusation of the IWBA based on the theory they were protecting their funding.

What I'm NOT seeing is a refutation of the analyses I referenced and the multiple individuals stating that Marshall misrepresented the facts of shootings.

Quote:
Secondly, I'm glad you brought up the subject of Eugene Wolberg's article which is fraught with fraud. Wolberg used bullets that were literally cherry-picked in order to prove his hypothesis! If he had used ANY bullet that had failed to expand, under penetrated or over penetrated, this would have invalidated his hypothesis. Even your beloved Hero Gary Roberts admitted on the Beretta Forum that Wolberg used cherry-picked bullets that were provided by San Diego's ME/Coroner for his paper!
Do you have a link or other reference to this alleged admission by Dr. Roberts or other evidence that the bullets were cherry-picked? Do you have any references to studies showing a poor correlation between calibrated ballistic gelatin and soft tissue hits in real shootings?

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Originally Posted by TexasRaider View Post
While some disagree with Marshall and Sanow's methods or results, the underlying theme they strove for, examining real world results after a police shooting, is worth pursuing. We dismiss real world results in exchange for lab testing at our own peril.
That "theme" is a fool's errand. The extensive set of variables, the high data precision, and the wildly varying psychological responses requires a data volume that makes it impossible to obtain valid results.

Quote:
If Marshall and Sanow can be dismissed for bias and pursing an agenda...
I am dismissing M&S because their criteria is fundamentally flawed and their numbers are unbelievable.

Quote:
Horrible tactics and poor marksmanship were the parents of the Miami horror, not a 115 gr Silvertip that failed to penetrate enough.
Are you claiming that all else being equal that an adequately penetrating shot would not have penetrated Platt's heart? Are you claiming that all else being equal an otherwise identical shot that pierced Platt's heart would not have incapacitated him more quickly?

I am not concerned here with the tactics and marksmanship of the Miami shootout. In fact, this paragraph is the first time I've typed "Miami" in this thread.

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True, but statistics are revealing. While predicting psychological reactions will never be mathematically predictable equations, the more info we collect on what actually happened on the street might make trying to predict such things irrelevant.
I'm not sure of your meaning here. Are you claiming that with enough data we may be able to create bullet designs so advanced that physiological incapacitation is guaranteed and therefore psychological responses would be irrelevant?

Quote:
I'm not a physicist, but I understand kinetic energy.....
Energy is required to do work, but not all of the KE does damaging work. You're measuring the input (KE) instead of the output (crush cavity, penetration, expansion, etc.) When driving I watch the odometer to see how far I've gone, not the gas gauge.

Quote:
I read this. A potential problem here is his quote:
It is a comparison of real shots in flesh versus ballistic gelatin. His references to Miami and desired penetration depth are not relevant to the accuracy of the analysis.

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And I understand that for lab consistency, bone hits were disregarded. But in street shooting analysis, they certainly aren't. If you have a round that can split or shatter bone in stopping a killer, that's a plus, it's not something I would disregard for the sake of a lab test.
I presume you have based this idea on studies demonstrating a significant difference in the ability to spit or shatter bone between the common duty/self-defense rounds. I am very interested in reading those studies. The only one I know of was performed by the Canadians in 1984.

Quote:
Quote:
I am curious about "today's ballistic environment" and how it is different than yesterday's ballistic environment...
Can't answer that.
So this was a meaningless throw-away line?

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Bad guys are bad guys. But technology has progressed to the point where you can get .357 Magnum performance without the blast and flash, the heavy revolver and the limited 6 round capacity. Modern ammo design makes rounds like the 10mm, lightweight .45's and .357 Sigs great options (and yes, even the 9mm, if loaded properly).
It's been a long while since I've run into a .357 sig shooter, but I definitely recall it having excessive muzzle blast, especially with multiple shooters at once.
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Old 08-10-2015, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Fishinfool View Post
Contrary to what some believe, bullet expansion is an important component in stopping power, not just penetration alone. Ask any big game hunter which kills (IE STOPS) quicker, a FMJ or expanding bullet.
Performance of hollow point bullets at pistol velocities has double ought nothing to do with rifles.
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Old 08-10-2015, 08:35 PM
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c/o RWSmith;
"...the FBI really needed was rifles or carbines..."


We can't help that some of the people in the "FBI" can not shot
accurately and need a longer sight plan to get scores that almost pass.
Going from 4" to 18" still is not a given.

Heck, a lot of them could not "Man Up" to handle the 10mm auto.

Now you expect them to be able to handle a 147gr 9mm bullet !! ??

Now that I ranted........................

The 147gr is a great low fps target loading for a lot of 9mm pistols. I have reloaded it down to 807 fps for good results.

As a "Super Duper SD load" it can work in a lot of pistols but...........
it has to be able to work w/o any problems and be able to be controlled by the shooter for a follow up shot if needed.

"Mag" loads have been a go to thing for all shooters..........
it just depends if they work in your weapons.


I had a 3/4 oz. steel duck load at 1850 fps that was faster than lightning.............
only problem, after a box of shells I did not have one duck to put on my strap to take home for the BBQ!!!
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Old 08-14-2015, 07:48 AM
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As to the 9mm/147s...was just wondering what exactly the FBI has finally decided on for a load and what velocity is it going from their chosen weapons....

Thanks...Bob
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Old 08-14-2015, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I'm starting to think this whole field of ammo/bullet effectiveness is just one big collection of guess work -- with no information that even approaches the level of fact.

Every single piece of analysis has been debunked multiple times, and then the "debunkers" are themselves debunked.

From now on, I think I'll just rely on common sense:

Bigger holes are more effective than smaller holes.

A hole that goes deeper is more effective than one that is shallower.

Once a bullet passes clear through a target, any energy/velocity it has has no more effect on that target and it just becomes a danger to bystanders.

My field is computer engineering and if we understood computing and computer design as poorly as ballistics is understood, then we would still be using abacuses.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everyone's efforts to answer my questions.
Marshall and Sanow's data were debunked because they falsified their reports.
They included CNS shots for .40 and under, or under .40 (don't remember which).
They EXCLUDED CNS shots for larger caliber rounds.
Thus, the smallbores looked better than the big bores.
That's how you get ridiculous statements such as the oft-repeated ".32 ACP HP is a better stopper than .45 ACP ball".

Apples to oranges.

As a result, their data cannot be taken seriously.
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Old 08-30-2018, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I'm starting to think this whole field of ammo/bullet effectiveness is just one big collection of guess work -- with no information that even approaches the level of fact.

Every single piece of analysis has been debunked multiple times, and then the "debunkers" are themselves debunked.

From now on, I think I'll just rely on common sense:

Bigger holes are more effective than smaller holes.

A hole that goes deeper is more effective than one that is shallower.

Once a bullet passes clear through a target, any energy/velocity it has has no more effect on that target and it just becomes a danger to bystanders.

My field is computer engineering and if we understood computing and computer design as poorly as ballistics is understood, then we would still be using abacuses.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everyone's efforts to answer my questions.
Actually, you are periously close to allowing the fog of Internet BS cloud your view of the now solid science of wound ballistics. Yes, SCIENCE. As a professional university biologist, I am all for common sense, except that when I see that phrase online, it usually means the poster has decided to jettison fact and science in favor of wrong-headed superficial viewpoints. Please don't follow that path!

We are in an era where we have a great lab protocol for testing bullet designs, and when these are corollated with street performance, predictions (and improvements) can be made. This had led to what we have today, an array of high-performing bullets in a large number of cartridges.

One of the problems is getting rid of out-dated ideas and information. Marshall and Sanow are one example. Their work would be rejected by any decent scientific journal, it is so full of holes, statistical errors, and yes, common-sense issues. It is a shame they wasted their time and effort, and the time of others.

The same is true for issues with the 147-grain 9 mm hp. The first generation performed poorly, as many feared. But those days are long gone; re-designed, the 147-grrain is a solid performer and a good choice for self-defense, just as it is for LE. Those who say otherwise are basing their opinions on data that is 25 years out-of-date, or based on . . .pure predjudice. They just don't like it. Pretty good reason for choosing/not choosing a round, right? Watch out for gunwriters and so much of what passes for "fact" on the Internet. Especially when you question the veracity of what someone writes, and they just come back louder and louder. Those who tell you about needing to carry five reloads, and pack bullets no police department would ever authorize. Sound familiar?

There is science behind terminal ballistics. Don't let the cloud of BS convince you otherwise.
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Old 08-30-2018, 11:03 PM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I'm starting to think this whole field of ammo/bullet effectiveness is just one big collection of guess work -- with no information that even approaches the level of fact.

Every single piece of analysis has been debunked multiple times, and then the "debunkers" are themselves debunked.

From now on, I think I'll just rely on common sense:

Bigger holes are more effective than smaller holes.

A hole that goes deeper is more effective than one that is shallower.

Once a bullet passes clear through a target, any energy/velocity it has has no more effect on that target and it just becomes a danger to bystanders.

My field is computer engineering and if we understood computing and computer design as poorly as ballistics is understood, then we would still be using abacuses.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everyone's efforts to answer my questions.
So true.......A 9mm may expand......But a 45 will never shrink......
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Old 08-30-2018, 11:14 PM
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It's alive! It's alive! It's alive ha ha ha!
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Old 08-31-2018, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Yorkie Man View Post
I use them now in my pocket 9mm because they have improved quite a bit since we carried them in 1990. We had the Winchester 147 JHP subsonic which had crimped primers and were designed for the military for use in their sub machine guns. I had quite a few of them fail to cycle the slide on the Glock 19. I have chronographed the WW white box 147's and they are right at 1000 fps. You can duplicate this load with Longshot.
And use Longshot only if you want LOTS of muzzleflash. I've tested it and LOTS other powders; LS is one of the worst.
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Old 08-31-2018, 08:47 PM
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"Those who say otherwise are basing their opinions on data that is 25 years out-of-date"

Nothing has changed about humans in 25 years.
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Old 09-10-2018, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I have an LCR 9mm revolver and I've been using 147 gr FMJ practice ammo in it.

Works well, is accurate, moderate recoil.

My thought was that since I tend to like heavier ammo like 158 gr in 38/357, I'd go with the heavier 9mm ammo in the LCR.

But now I've read several times that 147 gr 9mm has a terrible record "on the street" as an LE/SD round.

Why is this? Doesn't seem logical.

Is it just an example of Internet rumor BS.

I also have an LC9 pistol and would perhaps use the same ammo there.
Where are you getting your info?

W-W 147 grain Subsconic 9MM ammo was the definitive law enforcement load when it was introduced. It worked better than advertised. 147 grain Fed HST Tactical has seized the lofty position once held by W-W ammo.

For self-defense, I carry only Fed HST Tactical & 147 grain for the 9MM.
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Old 09-10-2018, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaymo View Post
Marshall and Sanow's data were debunked because they falsified their reports.
They included CNS shots for .40 and under, or under .40 (don't remember which).
They EXCLUDED CNS shots for larger caliber rounds.
Thus, the smallbores looked better than the big bores.
That's how you get ridiculous statements such as the oft-repeated ".32 ACP HP is a better stopper than .45 ACP ball".

Apples to oranges.

As a result, their data cannot be taken seriously.
Marshall & Sanow didn't need debunking. It wasn't anything resembling science. It was anecdotal hearsay.
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Old 09-10-2018, 12:24 PM
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Good Morning, Model520Fan,

You're 100% right. Ballistic tables are indices that are suitable for only superficial comparison.

Were I to have to go into thick stuff to dispatch a HUGE, mean griz, I'd take a fast-handling and suitably loaded .45/70 Gov't before I'd look at a .300 Mega Magnum.
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Old 09-10-2018, 03:39 PM
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I've been loading my P239 with 147gr HSTs for a while, although I stopped carrying the 9mm a while ago. I even unloaded the Black Talons out of my wife's FireStar and replaced them with the HST.

I saw at least two mentions, but I would like to know more about the 147gr .357Sig loadings. Two of my primary EDC guns (P320 & P229) are both .357, and loaded with the original made-for-357sig 125 gr round put out by Underwood (so *real* .357sig).

I haven't seen any tests with the .357 in the heavier 147gr round.
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:07 PM
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147 grain 9mm's work very well! Here is another thread that may also add information. I have some comments there also:

Need education on 9mm bullet weights for short barrels
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:51 PM
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Well we switched to the 147s from 125 grain +p 38s. We got into a barricade situation, and out of 6 hits only 1 expanded, a little, on one side. Next shooting both rounds were through and through, but no signs of expansion. So when we got struck deer calls we started shooting them with the 9s and trying to recover the bullets. And we get big deer, a lot of them person sized. Almost all of them would penetrate end to end, and the bullets were buried in the ground too far to recover.
And when we switched, a few of us made a specific recommendation for the old Federal 9BPLE load, but got overruled. The 115 hollow point @ 1200 fps loading.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Charlie Foxtrott View Post
There are always any number of knuckleheads out there that will bash something. In an effort to make themselves appear to be knowledgeable about something that they really have no knowledge of.

Heavy for caliber bullets are generally always a good option. Make your own observations. There is a reason why Jethro down at the gun store is Jethro down at the gun store. Because that is about as far as his brain power will allow him to go in life
It’s unfortunate that Jethro made it that far. He should have stayed at Sonic.

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Old 09-10-2018, 05:17 PM
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I first ran into 147 grain 9MM rounds at the Marine Corps Security Force Battalion Schools in 1988. We were using subsonic 147's in our HK MP5's that were fully silenced. They worked well in those guns and the Corps was happy with them. We were told that those were developed for the Corps. Can't remember who manufactured them though.
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
Because people writing in gun magazines, and many spreading rumors don't know what they are talking about. I have had access to hundreds of shooting reports with 9 mm 147gr. Subsonic and done first hand investigations and been present at both shootings and autopsies with it....know what is in my daily carry gun.......147gr. federal HST.
I agree.. I have carry pieces and home defense pistols. My home defense P-01 and SP-01 are stoked with 147gr HST's. A good substitute round is Gold Dot 147's and Golden Sabre 147's, all in standard pressure, no +P's for me. YMMV.. but the Federal, Gold Dot's, and GS's all are loaded hot enough. With 9mm, hell, for all handgun ammo I want penetration way more than expansion and the heavy for caliber loads are good at that.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymo View Post
Marshall and Sanow's data were debunked because they falsified their reports.
They included CNS shots for .40 and under, or under .40 (don't remember which).
They EXCLUDED CNS shots for larger caliber rounds.
Thus, the smallbores looked better than the big bores.
That's how you get ridiculous statements such as the oft-repeated ".32 ACP HP is a better stopper than .45 ACP ball".

Apples to oranges.

As a result, their data cannot be taken seriously.
Yes and no.

In their first book in 1992 their data for a single .32 ACP HP load achieved a one shot stop percentage of 60%, compared to 50% for .32 ACP FMJ, and 61-64% for .45 ACP FMJ loads.

So "no" by a thin margin.

In their second book the percentage was 63% for the .32 ACP HP load, and 63-65% for the .45 ACP FMJ loads.

So again "no" by a similarly thin margin.

In their 2001 book, the updated data showed three .32 ACP hollow point loads with percentages ranging from 60% to 66% compared to 62% for .45 ACP FMJ.

So in this case "yes" the .32 ACP numbers were slightly better.

Statistically, I don't think any of the differences in .32 ACP and .45 ACP performance across all three books was significant.

The point people miss is that Marshall and Sannow clearly recommend against the .32 ACP, even in the last book where they point out it is still less effective than.380 ACP in pistols and standard pressure .38 Special in snub nose revolvers.

And for what it is worth no one is out there recommending .45 ACP ball ammo for self defense either. When you consider that about half of all real world stops are psychological stops anyway, the 60ish percent numbers for .32 ACP and .45 ACP FMJ mean they are not very effective over and above a plain old doesn't matter what you got shot with psychological stop.

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Old 09-11-2018, 12:50 PM
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If I was back in LE today...give me a .357 SIG...there are no bad rounds... Even the 147s are going 1200 fps. My daily carry gun since 1980 has been a Commander in .38 Super...124 at 1350...115 at 1450...and 100 grain PowR'Ball at 1530...all clocked from my gun....just about identical to the SIG.
That's actually more or less what the Marshall and Sannow data says as well.

In their last book:

.357 Mag JHP loads ranged from a low of 82% to high of 96% for one shot stops.

.357 Sig ranged from 85% to 92%

9mm Luger JHPs ranged from 78% to 91%

.40 S&W JHPs ranged from 83% to 94%

10mm JHPs ranged from 81% to 90%

.41 Mag JHPs ranged from 80% to 90%

.44 Mag JHPs range from 87% to 92%

In short, with .357 Sig or .357 Mag, it's hard to find a bad load, and nothing really does significantly better than a good load in either of those cartridges.

All of the above cartridges get the job done, even 9mm Luget if you select a decent load.


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Originally Posted by SuperMan View Post
The other major problem with LE selection of guns and ammo has to do with training and qualification. Training has always been geared to qualification...not street survival. Training should be geared for survival shooting 90+% of which takes place within 10 yards. I will guaranty you that if qualifications were geared more toward reality instead of being based on target scores there would be far fewer officers failing qualification and a higher percentage of hits on the street.

But as long as the tail wags the dog, training is going nowhere...

Bob
I agree with you that 90% of self defense shoots will be at 10 yards or less. In fact, I'll argue 5 yards or less. The FBI found 75% of all agent involved shoots involved ranges of 3 yards or less.

We may disagree a bit on how to train officers for that threat.

Yes, if we have very limited time and rounds to fire to achieve some sort of "proficiency" then the bulk of that inadequate amount of time should be spent at the 1-5 yard lines.

However, if we're serious about training officers to be truly proficient, then we need to bring in some longer range shooting to help ingrain proper grip, sight alignment, and trigger control. If the target is not far enough out to show qualitative differences related to poor grip, poor sight alignment and poor trigger control, it's hard to correct those things.

With that approach you train officers to draw, bring the pistol up to the officers line of sight looking at the target and place he front blade on target. The officer then pauses to verify the rear sight is aligned with the front sight, make any needed correction and then maintain the sight alignment until the shot is released.

Over time, the officer develops muscle memory in the hand and arm to the point that the sights will always be aligned when the front sight comes on target (at least close enough for government work). At that point the focus can transferred to speed in getting the front sight on target, with any remaining pause used to determine if the need to shoot still exists. For example, if the officer has already delivered 2-3 shots center of mass and is transitioning to the head for a failure to stop shot. If the assailant goes down during the transition to the head shot, and the head isn't where its supposed to be, there's no need to deliver the shot, and no need to skip a round through the neighborhood.

The end result is an officer who can shoot with both speed and accuracy at 5 yards or 50 yards. Back stop that with some close in retention shooting training and practice and you have an officer who will shoot effectively from close contact to 50 yards.

The problem is that an officer will never get to that point if he or she is only firing 50-100 rounds twice a year.
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Old 09-11-2018, 02:24 PM
CA Escapee CA Escapee is offline
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Why does 147 gr 9mm have a bad rep? Why does 147 gr 9mm have a bad rep? Why does 147 gr 9mm have a bad rep? Why does 147 gr 9mm have a bad rep? Why does 147 gr 9mm have a bad rep?  
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There are some current 147gr load tests, as well as a bunch of others, on the Lucky Gunner website. These were fired out of an M&P 9c.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...tic-tests/#9mm

Some make nice looking mushrooms, some don't. Like the person above said, I wouldn't want to be in front of any of them coming my way.

Bill
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by CA Escapee View Post
There are some current 147gr load tests, as well as a bunch of others, on the Lucky Gunner website. These were fired out of an M&P 9c.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...tic-tests/#9mm

Some make nice looking mushrooms, some don't. Like the person above said, I wouldn't want to be in front of any of them coming my way.

Bill
Lots of people speculate and dislike the LG tests because they use clear block gelatin not up to par with the FBI 10% gel. I'm not one in that camp. Also, we all know the protocol of shooting thru 4 pieces/layers of denim stretched over the 10% gel and I understand you need a set of standards/specs for uniform consistency. But bullets that work in bare gel well are good enough for me as nobody has worn a Canadian Tuxedo down here since 1993.

And after seeing first hand what a solid bullet, (.44Special) with a 65-70% Meplate does to pelt and bone at handgun velocities... I'm seriously questioning my use of hollow point anything for self defense. YMMV.

Last edited by HamHands; 09-22-2018 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:35 PM
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I didn't read all 5 pages but just want to add...

A 147gr bullet in a short barrel 9mm revolver suffered from the same perceived inadequacy as a 158gr bullet in a short barrel 38/357 revolver. Most shooters seem to be obsessed with velocity and the heavy bullets don't produce super high velocity in short barrels. Marketing, blah blah blah...
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasRaider View Post
125 gr .357 Sig in Gold Dot. Great, great round.
Didn’t a department say that their 357 Sig GD ammo was going through people? I know I read that recently.
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
I was being a little tongue in cheek with the gunwriter thing...as I write for several magazines. The difference is I was a hobby gun writer and professional full time police officer, and not the other way around. I also had a job that tasked me specifically with conducting the firearms and ammunition work up on officer involved shootings, and used as court expert on these subjects for criminal cases.

Unless you were there, most of what comes out from a LE shooting is wrong, or not in any way a complete picture. Most folks have no idea of what they are even looking for in bullet performance. A good example was a shooting I worked in which a single 147 gr. SXT hit a felon at long range in low light with a spectacular shot made by one of my guys who was a well trained shooter. The suspect dropped in place with a single shot. I was at the scene and noted the fully expanded bullet fell out of the suspects shirt when we rolled him over for treatment (he lived with excellent medical treatment). One of the officers there said "see, those 9mm's don't work for ****, it just fell out of him" (we were a heavy .45 agency). I explained the error of his ways to the officer. The round penetrated deep, left all its energy in the body, did not over penetrate, and was fully expanded. The only issue was the round missed the heart and spine transversing the body...which is not the fault of the bullet (or the shooter in his case, as most people could not hit the guy at all at the distance, lighting and while the guy was running). The round did its job making a big hole through both lungs, and getting air in and fluid out, and dropped the guy with a single round efficiently. You have to look at totality, and most people will never have access to the records needed and first hand observations. Even pathologists do not always have the entire picture and full spectrum expertise.

I have a formula I give people when asking about self defense ammunition. Heaviest modern high performance bullet you can get in a caliber driven at a moderate velocity. Additionally, a mid weight round at elevated velocities is also a good option for some. If I am not carrying 147 HST, you will find me with 124 +p Gold Dot or HST as a second choice.
Agreed. Hence the reason I carry 150gr HST 9mm and keep some 138 gr Hornady Critical DUTY on hand as well.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:26 AM
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...I wonder how well the new generation 147s are really doing on the street...and how many agencies are carrying them. Even the military is staying with 9mm and eliminating all other handgun rounds...

One thing that has not been mentioned is the selection of the 9mm, regardless of bullet/velocity, isn't considered "the best" when compared ballistically to other calibers but is "the best all-around" when it comes to training, cost, longevity of the weapons, ability of the average officer to shoot well, magazine capacity, wide selection, etc. and the round "adequate" to get the job done {most of the time}. The primary word being "adequate" not "the best".

Will the 9mm 147 get the job done....if you believe that the .38 Special 158 LSC +P does then yes, as they deliver about the same energy to the target... And yes there are differences between the rounds/bullets but they are close...

The reason I don't like the word "adequate" when it comes to defending my life is that it is one step above the word "marginal"...and the day that adequate round happens to be having a marginal day, it may cost you your life...

..and yes, I am still carrying the same .38 Super as I last posted in 2015. I have nothing against using .35 caliber guns for defense against humans...it is the impact velocity of the 147s that concerns me.

Bob

Last edited by SuperMan; 09-23-2018 at 12:28 AM.
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