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  #51  
Old 09-28-2015, 08:31 AM
dsink dsink is offline
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I see this subject come up from time to time and one of the standard responces is, "target wadcutters are to slow"

So let me ask this. At what speed does a wadcutter cross the threshold and go from being a target bullet to a self defense bullet?
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  #52  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dsink View Post
I see this subject come up from time to time and one of the standard responces is, "target wadcutters are to slow"

So let me ask this. At what speed does a wadcutter cross the threshold and go from being a target bullet to a self defense bullet?
Good question, but my answer is, "Never!" Because if I ever have to explain it to a jury, I can declare, "I just had TARGET loads in the gun, not those nasty, man-killer bullets."
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  #53  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:16 AM
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I see this subject come up from time to time
Note that hiddencreek hasn't reappeared; perhaps he was trolling us.
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  #54  
Old 09-28-2015, 09:18 AM
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Skeeter Skelton also was a fan.
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  #55  
Old 09-29-2015, 12:36 PM
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Gamecock;

He may of bought a box of wadcutters and is testing them in his snub nose.

Either trying to get the bullet to penetrate two water jugs or............

Watching it go through 6 or seven water jugs !!
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  #56  
Old 09-29-2015, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsink View Post
I see this subject come up from time to time and one of the standard responces is, "target wadcutters are to slow"

So let me ask this. At what speed does a wadcutter cross the threshold and go from being a target bullet to a self defense bullet?
I guess one could argue the .41rf at 450fps was 'fast enough' since somebody somewhere was killed by it. The problem is relying on a soft lead Wadcutter at 600fps to 'stop' a BG.
Stops usually require major blood loss or tissue damage, breaking a major bone like a femur, pelvis, breastbone...or surrender. A target WC might do that, but there's plenty of examples where similar ballistics fail to do that, especially against the skull. Given my choices, I'd want more.
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  #57  
Old 09-29-2015, 01:49 PM
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For those who missed it in all the postings.......Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter. – www.GrantCunningham.com
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  #58  
Old 09-29-2015, 02:42 PM
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"Which begs the question: why donít the manufacturers produce a full charge wadcutter like they used to (before WWII)?"

Because they are making a fortune selling jacketed, hollow point ammo for handguns.
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  #59  
Old 09-29-2015, 05:56 PM
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"Because they are making a fortune selling jacketed, hollow point ammo for handguns."...........

+1;

In the old days they pushed lead, it worked and was cheap to make.

Today the JHP is the "IN" bullet................

However I think the company's are breaking even with a box of 148 hbwc Target bullets selling at $28.
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  #60  
Old 09-30-2015, 03:31 AM
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At one times years ago Corbon loaded the soft Rem. 158 gr. LSWCHP in a +p load that cranked a true 1K fps in a snubby. I believe they used gas checks as well. I asked Mike, their sales mgr., why they dropped it & if I recall he said they had a Helluva time in loading the extremely soft bullets w/o damaging them. Of course, the general move away from .38 sales to semi-auto loads probably didn't help.

FWIW, Undwerwood uses the same commercial lead bullet that Buffalo Bore uses for their loads as cast by Rim Rock:

g/ch .38/.357 mag 158 gr. SWC-HP per 100/ in a plastic ammo box - Gas Checked Cast Lead Bullets - Premium Bullets
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  #61  
Old 09-30-2015, 10:44 AM
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DoubleTap's hardcast 148g wadcutter claims 740fps and 180 ft/lbs of muzzle energy out of a 2 inch barrel. Not sure about the claims, but my 642 sure likes 'em. I hope I never find out how they work when used in a self defense situation.
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  #62  
Old 09-30-2015, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otreb View Post
A target WC might do that, but there's plenty of examples where similar ballistics fail to do that, especially against the skull. Given my choices, I'd want more.
This today:

Police: Man continues driving after being shot twice in head | Fox News

I think people underestimate the structural integrity of the human skull, and in whole, underestimate the toughness of the species.

This whole wadcutter thing is interesting, and personally I wouldn't feel bad about a FULL POWER wadcutter load, or a +P one, etc....... but target loads and mouse guns are more likely to result in the above, and if that guy could drive a car, he could put up a fight, I'm guessing.

I'm willing to bet that the weapon used in the above instance sure isn't any sort of service caliber using defensive ammo.

.....and then, we have the stories of Mossad using the .22lr successfully against terrorists armed with AK47s and such......

I'm going to go ahead and say that you need specific training to ensure any handgun is going to work for you, and in some cases, caliber specific training might be in order.
I'm glad I explained about where the weaknesses of the cranial vault are to my wife, and how to exploit them in contact shots with her beretta, and showed her the "zipper technique".

In any case, I think expecting the .38 special target wadcutter to do what a +P defensive load, or even a full power wadcutter, will do is not realistic thinking.

ETA-
This is another reason I chose a .38 snubbie over one of the micro .380's. The ballistics of the .38 special may not be 9mm or .40, but for a small carry gun thats actually SMALL and easy to carry(for me), without being ridiculous to shoot with anything but light loads, the .38 special just shines. While the buffalo bore +p 158gr FBI load might be a bit much, the "standard" FBI load with its big(ish) slug,compared to even 9mm loads from short barrels, is plenty enough for me.
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  #63  
Old 09-30-2015, 12:56 PM
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So many serious answers!

Back in simpler days many articles were published in gun magazines in which salty gunmen described all sorts of ways to make lead bullets more effective. As I recall the reverse based .38 wadcutter was supposed to be poison. Used for defense these loads were darn near guaranteed to produce "buckets of blood" when applied to a miscreant.

Recently, I dug my old Model 37 out of the back of the safe. I felt it would be fun to have some vintage style rounds for this old hardware. I asked a friend load up some some of these ...



Not planning on packing this set up. But what's the harm?
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  #64  
Old 09-30-2015, 01:40 PM
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Recently, I dug my old Model 37 out of the back of the safe. I felt it would be fun to have some vintage style rounds for this old hardware. I asked a friend load up some some of these ...

It sure is a pretty gun...... and the ammo looks like its mean.
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  #65  
Old 09-30-2015, 01:46 PM
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I think people underestimate the structural integrity of the human skull, and in whole, underestimate the toughness of the species.
"shot in the right forehead and right cheek"

Just one to the skull. Half the head is not part of the central nervous system, hence will not result in an immediate stop of an assailant.

Humans can't be defined as tough. Some live through the impossible; some die from seemingly nothing.
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  #66  
Old 09-30-2015, 01:53 PM
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"shot in the right forehead and right cheek"

Just one to the skull. Half the head is not part of the central nervous system, hence will not result in an immediate stop of an assailant.

Humans can't be defined as tough. Some live through the impossible; some die from seemingly nothing.
Shot twice in the head and still driving a motor vehicle means, to me, that that person, if inclined to do so, is still capable of pulling a trigger, or even using said vehicle as a weapon.

Toughness is an individual characteristic, but without proper blood supply the brain will not function, with severe damage to the brain, same thing. No matter how tough.
The human skull takes advantage of the structural integrity of arches, like roman bridges. I'm sure people here have read anecdotes of rifle projectiles being deflected around the skull, especially around the forehead.... The weak points, for small calibers, are where the skull is compromised by sensory organs and such, where the dome shapes are not apparent.

Getting shot twice in the head and surviving puts a person in a special category of a very limited number of very lucky individuals. Being conscious and able to operate (to a limited extent) a motor vehicle makes it that much more so.

It also demonstrates to a fault the axiom- there are no magic bullets, and no guarantees.

Still, I'd be willing to put money on a bet that says this wasn't a service caliber with a defensive load.
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  #67  
Old 09-30-2015, 02:07 PM
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Still, I'd be willing to put money on a bet that says this wasn't a service caliber with a defensive load.
You just never know. I have a friend who shot a burglar in the head with a .44 magnum, and the perp lived to sue him. Perp lost, but the friend had to close his shop due to insurance becoming impossible.
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  #68  
Old 10-02-2015, 12:18 PM
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The standard 158gr lead out of a four inch barrel will have around 200 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.........
Not a bad SD load but not the best either.

per post #61;
A 148gr at 740 and 180 energy is nice but in my M49 snub nose a factory Remington 148gr only kicked out 641 fps with a very low energy of just 135 ft/lbs.
The factory Federal 158gr LRN did 647fps with just 146 ft/lbs of energy.

per post #63;
In Nov. 11th.2010, Guns & Ammo had a article on ammo for the short barrel. One of the loads the author tested was his home made, Hornady 148gr HBWC, loaded backwards.
"The Load" was with 3.5 grs of TightGroup powder and did the following.
Gel: 783 fps penetration 10.2 inches.........minimum expansion.
Cloth: 775 fps penetration 19.3 inches............ NO expansion.

True the 783 fps load had 200 ft/lbs of energy but........a "Reload", not a factory loading....... and yes

that is a very nice looking snub nose.
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  #69  
Old 10-02-2015, 02:33 PM
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No sir, I am not trolling, I am reading and digesting all of this invaluable information. I began third shift in a detention center 3 months ago and my world is kinda upside down. At my age it isn't easy but it is a hell of an education. So, that said, sorry for my silence but I am still here; thank you all for your responses, you can't go to the store and buy even a fraction of this knowledge. I began this thread because I bought some wadcutters from a friend and then purchased a Model 686; thus my question....Gamecock, little sore from the Cats whipping the Gamecocks a couple of weeks ago? (Gotta take my shot, it has been a lonnnnng time coming! At football, anyway...)
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Old 10-02-2015, 06:25 PM
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Gamecock, little sore from the Cats whipping the Gamecocks a couple of weeks ago? (Gotta take my shot, it has been a lonnnnng time coming! At football, anyway...)
I was born in Berea. Half my family went to UK. So it doesn't sting. Much.
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Old 10-02-2015, 07:24 PM
Master Gunsmith Master Gunsmith is offline
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Default 38WC vs Bear

Sat under a tree , looked up to see a 200lb bear looking down at me. Pulled my J Frame loaded with 148 gr. WC 2.8 grains Bullseye, 2 quick shots to the throat. Five second later he hit the ground stone dead. Back when we didn't have all the high tec ammo they have today.
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  #72  
Old 10-02-2015, 10:03 PM
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Before the military went to 9mm, back in the 70's the local Air Police from Fairchild AFB used to use a hollow-based wadcutter round in their 38 special revolvers. It was a 158gr. hollow-based wadcutter over 3.5 gr of Reddot (thats what I remember) I remember shooting them with my Colt Trooper and they were very accurate rounds, I figured they would open up to about 45 caliber. It was like looking into funnel. Of course it wouldn't be all that great against armor or a car door but on a typical human torso I would think it would be devastating. I've never been in law enforcement but I've always felt that shot placement counted more than anything else, being able to hit what you shoot at should count for something and this load was very comfortable for my wife to shoot in her little Chief's Special. Better than some high zoot +P load that had her scared to practice.
Of course what I forgot to mention was that the wadcutters were loaded backwards with the hollow-base pointing out.

Last edited by Kinman; 10-02-2015 at 10:04 PM.
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  #73  
Old 10-03-2015, 12:58 AM
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I don't know if Lyman ever did it in .38, but they used to make a very interesting .44 caliber mould. I think the number was 429348. I bought one used around 1980, and looked it up in the then current Lyman manual, which said the the weight was 180 grains in #2 alloy. The base of the bullet was just like any other RN or SWC bullet, but the nose part was of a reduced diameter and pure cylindrical. I cast up a bunch of them and loaded them to 180 grain full power data for .44 special. When I fired them in a M29, they seemed pretty hot, so I did what I should have done first, I weighed some of the bullets and found that they weighed @ 240 grains! Some research in older Lyman catalogs showed that the same number mould was at one time available in both bullet weights. That .44 wadcutter has always looked to me like a very good SD bullet, so I am looking at making up a mould for a similar bullet in .38. It will have a base section 0.358"
diameter up to the crimping groove, and a cylindrical nose section of .350" and a total weight of 158-160 gr. when cast of WW. I will load them to full power service velocities in both .38 Special and .357 Magnum. I believe that they will make excellent SD loads.
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  #74  
Old 10-03-2015, 03:52 AM
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I am pragmatic in that the NYPD has issued the Speer 135 gr. +p Gold Dot for over ten years now with a boatload of shootings and nothing but praise. It appears it hits the "sweet spot" for weight/velocity that works in snubbies. It's hard to argue to Street results as in the end that's what counts, unless you're shooting rabbits. That's not to say that the old FBI load is bad, just that the Speer load is better and with a snubby you're going to need every advantage you can get as 5 or 6 shots is certainly no "fusillade".
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:10 AM
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I know its uncouth of me to ask, and probably not within policy or even the law for anyone to reply, but I would LOVE to actually hear just a smidgen of the accounts of these shootings, in both the case of the Speer Gold dot and the FBI load.
Not out of a case of sick morbidity, but just for my own personal self defense knowledge.
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:10 AM
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I know its uncouth of me to ask, and probably not within policy or even the law for anyone to reply, but I would LOVE to actually hear just a smidgen of the accounts of these shootings, in both the case of the Speer Gold dot and the FBI load.
Not out of a case of sick morbidity, but just for my own personal self defense knowledge.
Due to our litigious & PC society today they are for the most part unavailable to the general public.
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Old 10-04-2015, 12:17 PM
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I was born in Berea. Half my family went to UK. So it doesn't sting. Much.
Small world, I was born a Tarheel but moved here in '74 to attend Berea College...never left, nice to meet you!
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Old 10-04-2015, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
"Because they are making a fortune selling jacketed, hollow point ammo for handguns."...........

+1;

In the old days they pushed lead, it worked and was cheap to make.

Today the JHP is the "IN" bullet................

However I think the company's are breaking even with a box of 148 hbwc Target bullets selling at $28.
"Breaking Even?"
You gotta be kidding!
Big difference between breaking even and making bank.
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:42 PM
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The first book from Sanow indicated that the soft lead---non jacketed---158 grain HOLLOW POINT Semi wadcutter did best. They had soft lead that expanded well---the velocity from snubbies being relatively slow.

It is hard to find them from winchester and federal nowadays---but I have seen remington 's lately.

However---I would like to see some gelatin results with the Hornady FTX critical defense---especially the 90 grain.
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:43 PM
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I think it would be ok to wadcutters. Hey just think of all the hollow points used from the start of the country until now!! oh..wait they used lead bullets didn't they!!! If you make a hole it will bleed
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Gunsmith View Post
Sat under a tree , looked up to see a 200lb bear looking down at me. Pulled my J Frame loaded with 148 gr. WC 2.8 grains Bullseye, 2 quick shots to the throat. Five second later he hit the ground stone dead. Back when we didn't have all the high tec ammo they have today.
I'm betting that required a reload of your Fruit of the Looms afterwards, I know I would have needed to.
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Old 10-06-2015, 12:47 AM
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Due to our litigious & PC society today they are for the most part unavailable to the general public.
Ain't it .... marvelous?
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:32 AM
sodacan sodacan is offline
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I have a 4" model 29-2 ( not really a snubby, I know) that I use as HD gun with 200 gr.JHP (.44special) ammo from Underwood. I am currently out of them, so I had bought a box of their 200 grain hard cast wadcutters to try them out, and they are currently a temporary replacement. I know this thread is dealing with .38's, but I think this .44 round would be very effective.

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  #84  
Old 10-06-2015, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sodacan View Post
I have a 4" model 29-2 ( not really a snubby, I know) that I use as HD gun with 200 gr.JHP ammo from Underwood. I am currently out of them, so I had bought a box of their 200 grain hard cast wadcutters to try them out, and they are currently a temporary replacement. I know this thread is dealing with .38's, but I think this .44 round would be very effective.
Don't get me wrong; I love my Model 29-2; but I've, also, got no illusions about it being a good self-defense gun. It is entirely possible to accurately fire a 9mm pistol up to four times faster than a heavily recoiling 44 Magnum.

(I've often done it.)

9mm pistols have been - and are currently - approved by the New Jersey State Police for general issue and field service; but, to my knowledge, 44's (all of them) are only available to NJ State Troopers who apply, individually, and are then subsequently approved to use them.

Me, personally? If I knew I were going to be gunfighting for my life I, sure as heck, wouldn't want to be holding onto a 44 Magnum anything; and I don't care whether or not it's downloaded with 44 Special ammo.
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Old 10-06-2015, 02:46 PM
sodacan sodacan is offline
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Don't get me wrong; I love my Model 29-2; but I've, also, got no illusions about it being a good self-defense gun. It is entirely possible to accurately fire a 9mm pistol up to four times faster than a heavily recoiling 44 Magnum.

(I've often done it.)

9mm pistols have been - and are currently - approved by the New Jersey State Police for general issue and field service; but, to my knowledge, 44's (all of them) are only available to NJ State Troopers who apply, individually, and are then subsequently approved to use them.

Me, personally? If I knew I were going to be gunfighting for my life I, sure as heck, wouldn't want to be holding onto a 44 Magnum anything; and I don't care whether or not it's downloaded with 44 Special ammo.
Major omission on my part-- the rounds are .44 special, not magnums. I personally would not use the magnum round for HD. I didn't think 9mm was part of this discussion, but it certainly can be an effective round. The .45acp is my preferred ammo for SD. I love slow, fat, heavy rounds. Shoot what you like, and like what you shoot.
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Old 09-01-2018, 05:44 PM
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Default Wadcutters for self-defense

Anyone here ever heard of Jim Cirillo? He certainly had no problem with using wadcutters for self-defense. Look up his bullet designs.
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Old 09-22-2018, 09:14 AM
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The one shooting I know of with a factory .38 wadcutter was a woman who shot her very large husband in the armpit with one. He grunted and dropped dead. The medical examiner found the undeformed slug in his pelvis, where it stopped after its farewell tour of many of his vital organs.
A hard cast wadcutter 150grains at 850-900fps to the pelvis is a nasty mother pumper!! A lot of old beat cops will tell you it's a fight stopper. The 4 I've talked to that have used them on perps wouldn't carry anything but a hot loaded HC full wadcutter in their back-up "J" frames. After what I've seen them do to pelt/bone/sinew first hand... I don't question Underwood's or Buffalo Bore's Hard Cast loads and have been carrying one or the other's version in my back up "J" frame to my primary M629 for years. YMMV, carry what you know works!

NY Reload... Primary with BB 150 HCWC's and back-up with BB 158gr+P Soft-Cast LHP's.


Appalachia Reload: Primary 255gr Hard Casts "Keith's" in .44Special and back up with aforementioned 150 HCWC's...

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  #88  
Old 09-22-2018, 10:56 AM
Marshal Kane Marshal Kane is offline
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Shot placement is king.
If you could make a face shot under pressure, a target wadcutter could be more decisive than any exotic round in the torso.
+1 for shot placement. A shot to the heart with a wadcutter beats a SD round to the leg.
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:26 AM
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I was in 6 stand up gunfights. Hit 5 out of 6 bad guys. The JHP expanded everytime.
Was wondering about the gun and ammo used in these encounters....

Bob
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:37 AM
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Default MARKETING & PROFIT MARGINS.

With a name like BLACK TALON, TACTICOOL WHATEVER, and a brightly colored box like ZOMBIE MAX, they MUST be good.
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Old 09-22-2018, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Otreb View Post
A hardcast Wadcutter driven to better than target velocities might be an improvement over rnl, but aside from the shootability benefit of a target WC, they are IMO too slow and too soft for SD applications. They're hard pressed to get low 600fps...not fast enough to reliably break major bones that protect the spots you want to hit.
I guess they are better than nothing of course, but there's a lot of better choices.
My wadcutters are chronographed at 950 fps out of my 1-7/8" 38 special snubby.

These are not over pressure loads, no flat primers, no sticky extraction, nothing unusual.

It is hard to stomach the amazing widespread ignorance of the fact that a wadcutter is a bullet shape, not a cartridge. Wadcutter shaped bullets can be loaded just as hot as any other shaped bullet.
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Old 09-22-2018, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
With a name like BLACK TALON, TACTICOOL WHATEVER, and a brightly colored box like ZOMBIE MAX, they MUST be good.
Hahaha! You'd be surprised at how effective that kind of marketing appeals to some...

The "Talon's" were/are actually a pretty effective HP. The current HST that most revere (and I regard it well too), are just an updated version of that venerable ol' hollowpoint from past readings/articles on ARFcom...
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Old 09-22-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dsink View Post
I see this subject come up from time to time and one of the standard responces is, "target wadcutters are to slow"

So let me ask this. At what speed does a wadcutter cross the threshold and go from being a target bullet to a self defense bullet?
Short answer, a 150+grain Hard Cast with a muzzle velocity of 800fps+ to the pelvis or lower abdomen is devastating. I had multiple email conversations with Tim Sundles about this very load. He guaranteed a Muzzle Velocity of well over 800fps from my 1 7/8" barreled "J" frames and 2" barreled Agent. My 2 "J's" average into the 870's and the "D" frame Colt over 900fps. Tim said he spent a lot of time in the woods growing up/hunting and described the effect this load had on heavy boned & pelted animals. The one animal that I've had to put down with that load was put down quick. They bust thru the skull of an agressive Pitbull and leave a drippy nickel sized hole I can vouch. YMMV, and this is just my experience... use what makes you happy/comfortable and what you shoot well.
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Old 09-22-2018, 03:06 PM
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The British adopted their 38 S&W 380/200 round because they found the lighter recoil improved accuracy in the hands of someone with minimal training. Which is probably a lot more of us than we are willing to admit.
Again, shot placement is all important and Hits with Minor Calibers hurt a lot more than Misses with Majors.
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Old 09-22-2018, 03:56 PM
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FAMED GUNFIGHTER JIM CIRILLO, OF THE NYCPD'S "STAKE OUT SQUAD" USED STANDARD VELOCITY FULL WADCUTTERS IN .38SPL. IN HIS 20 FIREFIGHTS, IN CLOSE TO 300 SHIFTS WITH THE SQUAD....

GIVEN HIS STATUS, HE COULD HAVE SHOT ANYTHING, BUT THIS WAS HIS WEAPON AND AMMO OF CHOICE. HE KILLED ELEVEN AND DISABLED SEVERAL OTHERS, IN THE COURSE OF HIS DUTIES.......

HE USED WHATEVER BRAND OF AMMO THAT THE NYPD HAPPENED TO BE USING FOR TRAINING AT THE TIME.....
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:48 PM
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If mentioned, I overlooked it, but consider recoil sensitivity.

I have a baaaaad right hand and it hurts like the devil to shoot any of my snubbies with anything close to a self defense riound. Hornady Critical Defense makes a 90 grain load that I can manage, but it smarts.

Docs are gonna fix my hand, and planned surgery in October, but I hurt my foot and am in a wheel chair now so it has to be postponed (Plan to move to crutches in a few wekks and can't manage them with a cast on my right hand).

A snubbie with the standard full wadcutter doesn't hurt, make me flinch, make me cry or even whine.

I have other guns I can shoot, 380 and 9mm without a loooot of pain, but the snubbie with the WCs is still more pleasant and lets me spend quality time at the range.

Bob
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:35 PM
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If mentioned, I overlooked it, but consider recoil sensitivity.

I have a baaaaad right hand and it hurts like the devil to shoot any of my snubbies with anything close to a self defense riound. Hornady Critical Defense makes a 90 grain load that I can manage, but it smarts.

Docs are gonna fix my hand, and planned surgery in October, but I hurt my foot and am in a wheel chair now so it has to be postponed (Plan to move to crutches in a few wekks and can't manage them with a cast on my right hand).

A snubbie with the standard full wadcutter doesn't hurt, make me flinch, make me cry or even whine.

I have other guns I can shoot, 380 and 9mm without a loooot of pain, but the snubbie with the WCs is still more pleasant and lets me spend quality time at the range.

Bob
SORRY TO READ ABOUT YOUR HEALTH PROBLEMS, BROTHER. HOPEFULLY, YOU WILL HAVE A SPEEDY AND COMPLETE RECOVERY.....
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Old 09-23-2018, 02:03 AM
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Out of a snubbie, you can see target wadcutters in the air if you shoot them over a pure white, snow covered field. Just sayin'.
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Old 09-23-2018, 06:45 AM
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Out of a snubbie, you can see target wadcutters in the air if you shoot them over a pure white, snow covered field. Just sayin'.
And Wonder Woman can swat them away.
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Old 09-25-2018, 04:39 PM
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it'll knock the bad guy on his *** real quick !!!
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