After the San Bernadino shooting, I ordered a few boxes of their Civil Defense 9mm, 357 mag, 10mm, and 45 ACP to mix in with my traditional self-defense rounds (DPX). I'm normally not a fan of multiple ammo types mixed in the same magazine, but I think new threats call for new ways of dealing with said threats. I'm going to mix in Liberty Civil Defense since although it doesn't penetrate really deep in ballistic gel, it will indeed defeat IIIA body armor and so at least some damage on the other side.

Liberty Civil Defense 9mm and Body Armor - YouTube

From what it looks like to me, the Liberty ammo will give a 9mm or larger caliber weapon the same ability as the FN 5.7 using SS198 ammo: penetration of body armor and lower recoil - along with the same drawback: sub-standard penetration in non-armored threats. But this drawback is also a strength: penetration of body armor without the risk of over-penetration of non-armored threats.

I haven't decided on using every second or third round (or alternatively a spare mag filled with it).

Last time I checked (and it has been a while) There is a law against ammunition that is designed to penetrate armor. Has this changed, or am I just behind the times?

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On the Oak Savannah

As far as I know, the San Bernadino shooters were not wearing body armor, just "tactical" or load-bearing vests. These are for carrying extra mags primarily.

Haven't said that, the MAC test on youtube is very interesting. I'd want to see some properly conducted gel tests before drawing any conclusions as to the round's effectiveness for self defense.

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USAF, 69-92
Vietnam, 72-73

The AP designation by the ATF is strictly about bullet composition and not about whether it actually pierces armor (for example most rifle rounds will penetrate armor but are not labeled as AP).

As for gel tests, they're out there and show this is not the best round for reaching FBI-standard penetration depth. But what it WILL do is pierce body armor and still do SOME damage, about as much or more than the SS198.

Yeah, the SB attack just got me thinking about it - not only terrorists but the crazy theater-shooting guy kind of stuff.

Not sold on the demo in the MAC video. That is a hard trauma plate and is supposed to be used in addition to the soft body armor not by itself. I would be interested to see that in a full vest and/or just the vest. That being said, I would not want to have to worry about going up against that.

Any pistol is going to be "Under gunned" against an assault type
rifle with large capacity mags, plus extra ammo.

If they use BP vest, you need a load that is accurate because the first 1-2 shots will need to hit home...... hopefully above the vest.

Knee and foot shots may distract the shooter but any thing can happen after that, goes down.

I just hope it will never take place..............

been carrying the liberty ammo for some time. mostly 'cause its so light... that said, we soaked a few yellow pages (ft lauderdale area, so big...) and shot them from 15 ft. with several different mfg ammo. golden saber, hydro-shock, critical defense, gold dot, and liberty. the liberty was by far and away, the round that did the most damage, and also retained the least weight. the base of the liberty was the only piece big enough to find. .9mm, .40, .45. all reacted pretty much the same. all of the rounds started to expand at around 1 3/4- 3"penetration. didn't get much jacket seperation, or fragmentation from any but the liberty. i like it, it is a bit hot for most pistols, it fragments, and against barriers i doubt it will do much. all in all, i'll continue to carry it, and am confident in my skill more than any ammo, but don't see how you could go wrong with it.

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why? why not?

I was trained to aim for the pelvic girdle in the event of a BG wearing armor, because it is a big, highly vascular target that is much easier to hit than a smaller moving target like the head. Hitting someone in the pelvis usually causes massive bone and tissue damage, a lot of pain, and serious bleeding. Breaking down their skeletal frame takes away their mobility, and hitting a person in the groin will pretty much ruin their day and take the fight out of anyone. Let them go into shock from blood loss if you're concerned that they may still have some fight left in them, or target the head if they still want to present a lethal threat once they're down or less mobile.

In an overseas combat environment with a rifle to stop movers from moving so you can finish them while stationary.....sure. CONUS with pistol bullets....stop reading gun magazines. I have yet to see a successful failure to stop with a pistol round to the pelvis. My guys have dropped a bunch with head shots, including those wearing armor....which is very rare. Also, I would not use specialty ammo for this rare possibility. I would (and do) focus on surgical shooting skills to be able to hit a head as a failure to stop. Shooting a pelvis as a target of opportunity is fine. As a failure to stop response...haven't seen it, and the folks who push it likely have not seen it work either.

Liberty has been shown to be a cheap gimmick bullet that does minimal damage, and now its trying to come back as a possible armor piercing round, a result of the higher velocity low weight projectile. Its a poor choice for unarmored targets, and its effect even if it does pierce armor is questionable. If one were truly serious about the handgun selection for soft armor concerns, one would choose the 5.7 FN, its soft armor punch through is one of the reasons NATO was interested. I'm no big proponent of the cartridge, but being objective, its good at what it does. Small caliber, high velocity, it is perfect for its intended role. The Liberty as a compromise for armor piercing in a larger caliber is a poor compromise, either go with a standard HP in the standard chamberings, or just switch to a whole cartridge that is intended to do the job.

On top of that, if the attacker is wearing hard body armor, composite ceramic or steel, frangible high velocity rounds will go from potentially useful to worthless. The high velocity light bullets may pass through soft materials before they can resist to stop them, but are all but pointless against a hard object, which they will only fragment against.

The chance of an encounter where one has to face off against an attacker with armor is not impossible, but far less likely than unarmored. It wouldn't make that much sense to specialize for the least likely scenario, rather than specialize for the most likely scenario. Bullets good at piercing armor are seldom useful for anything else, and you are downgrading your overall performance for one situation.

I don't think the pelvic gurdle shot is the best idea, but then again, its also thinking on a right track. Head shots, in a stressful scenario, can be difficult to make, and if we are talking about an attacker wearing heavy body armor, why might he not wear a helmet that could help with many pistol caliber head shots? Perhaps the pelvis is not the perfect target, but it is unarmored and can be torn apart by rounds better than the armored part of the man. Most importantly, you are still staying on center mass, where you will likely hit in any case, and perhaps hit underneath the armor itself. Many armors, especially plates, are short cuirass style, and will often leave a significant part of the torso uncovered. Shots below this armor may mostly be low value intestines, but in many cases will end up with potential shots to the spine and descending aorta and vena cava, and in some shots the kidneys and renal artery. Less value than the upper chest, but still better than hitting armor, or a complete miss.

A man aiming for the pelvis might put a lucky shot through the attacker's spine or descending artery, especially if he pulls the shot. A shot to the head with a handgun may easily miss, will hit nothing if the shooter pulls the shot up, is not exactly a guaranteed end to the fight depending on where the shot hits, and presents a smaller target. Shots at the pelvis might also hit the unarmored legs, which may not stop the fight initially, but can decrease combat effectiveness, and in the case of the latest terrorist attack, provide wounds that could prevent a second attack elsewhere by making them a long term casualty, i.e. shot to the leg may not stop the first massacre, but may put the shooter out of the situation of a second mass shooting later on. I argue that if a terrorist is bold enough to wear body armor, they might wear head armor, and a lower torso shot is more likely to at least slow down the attacker.

No easy answers on this one. On one hand, this is theory tossed about, about a subject that almost no one will realize. On the other hand, the very nature of terrorism is changing to the point it may be more important than what we realize.

Just my opinion but I think that you're over thinking things.

You will most certainly be out gunned and out manned. And you hope that the right round will be chambered exactly when you need it. The odds are not in your favor.

Stick with what works for you. The DPX is a good start.

You won't catch me carrying something like Liberty or any other unproved self defense load.

If I find myself in such a situation, I will be glad that I have a high capacity gun with street proven ammo.

I suggest shooting at the "golden triangle". An imaginary triangle from the high chest/neck to the bridge of the nose.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

While training for hitting center of mass it would be a good idea to include higher and lower shots in your routine.

An ex SEAL said that as he starts to pull his gun, he starts shooting at the attackers feet and keeps firing as his pistol is rising.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I would be curious how well that has worked in shooting in a non military environment in the United States while held to legal standards both criminally and civilly?

I have spent a lot of time in high end training classes with lots of SEAL's, included several restricted courses not open to the public.....and none of them did anything like that who were operational since the late 90's. SEAL's have not had the most stellar reputations for being surgical shooters. This has changed recently and you will not see anything like that from the current folks.

This is simple. You can train for for what you believe you cannot do, have at it. I train to what is most efficient and successful, but requires dedicated work. I have a stack of photos instantly incapacitated felons from the work folks I have trained this way have done. Train hard, train easy, or try a ammunition selection solution. Just remember, you legally, morally and ethically own every single round you fire, and you make both a life and death as well as financial decision every time you pick up a firearm. Do what you think is best and live with the consequences.

Spartan Armor states that those are stand-alone panels.

Carry your normal ammo. If body armor is encountered aim for thighs, hips, groin and head. A car at 20 mph will do more damage than a handgun caliber at 1000 fps if they keep failing to penetrate. Alternate between DRIVE and REVERSE as necessary.