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View Poll Results: Which short barrel .38 load?
Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P short barrel 73 63.48%
Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP 42 36.52%
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:35 PM
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I've narrowed my Snubby ammo to Speer GD 135gr +P short barrel and Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP.
What do you choose and any real world experience with either you'd like to share would be welcome.
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:59 PM
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I use both, but have my 442-2 loaded with the Buffalo Bore +p 158gr lwschp.
It averages over 950fps over the chrono, vs 843fps for the 135gr Gold Dot in that gun. I have more confidence in the BB load, as it's more consistent velocity-wise and still manageable enough. The Speer load is certainly fine, but I'm used to seeing big velocity spreads through a number of different guns, often putting it at the bottom threshold of reliable bullet performance at least in the snubbies. I'd trust it more if it was consistent and about 50fps faster.
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Old 02-11-2016, 09:23 PM
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You narrowed down to my two favorite .38 Special loads, assuming we're talking about the standard pressure BB load. I prefer the Gold Dot but would have no problem carrying the BB. I don't think you'd go wrong with either. The Gold Dot has a proven track record in the field. FBI loads in general also have a solid track record, but I'm not aware of any BB use in the field.

I will add that I prefer JHP for reloads, regardless of what load is in the cylinder. JHP is far less likely to deform when carried in a strip or speedloader than a LSWCHP, especially the BB load with it's softer lead; it may or may not matter to you.

Also, the Gold Dot has a price advantage over the BB if you can find the 50-round boxes.

It could just be as simple as which of the two is easier for you to get.
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Old 02-11-2016, 09:36 PM
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I use the 135gr +p in my Ruger SP101 snubby (for CCW) and it's fun to shoot. The only Buffalo Bore I've shot out of my SP101 is the .357 180gr hard cast -- NOT so fun to shoot.
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Old 02-12-2016, 02:11 PM
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I use the Buffalo Bore® 158gr LSWCHCGC Standard Pressure load in my Airweight® and Ultra-Lite® snubbies. I use The BB® +P load with the same bullet in my steel snub nose guns. Buffalo Bore® ammunition is simply the best IMHO; and for me, only the best will do.
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Old 02-12-2016, 03:16 PM
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"Best Ammo" depends on the pistol or revolver being used.

A true "J frame" non +P or a Airweight® +P to a K frame will all handle different with those two loads you mentioned.

Best for the gun or the shooter is another question to be answered.... unless you have that SP101, in post #4.

Glad they work for you.
I'm still deciding.
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Old 02-13-2016, 05:25 AM
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I think you chose the two top items of their kind.

I voted for Speer because it's very accurate in my guns and I've not tried BB and think its cost and heavier recoil may make it less ideal for many shooters. And it may lead barrels. Does the std. pressure BB load use a gas check, like the stouter one?
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Old 02-13-2016, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
I think you chose the two top items of their kind.

I voted for Speer because it's very accurate in my guns and I've not tried BB and think its cost and heavier recoil may make it less ideal for many shooters. And it may lead barrels. Does the std. pressure BB load use a gas check, like the stouter one?
I think it does use a gas check.
I'm leaning towards using both. The Speers in the snubbies and the BB in my 19 and 10 both 4".
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Old 02-13-2016, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
I think it does use a gas check.
I'm leaning towards using both. The Speers in the snubbies and the BB in my 19 and 10 both 4".
Not a bad idea.

I currently use the Speer in all my snub guns. I've been thinking about ordering a couple boxes of the +P version of BB to try in my SP101 (and my 686/GP100). In the heavier weight guns, the BB combines near "mid" level 357 power with a softer lead projectile.
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Old 02-13-2016, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
I think you chose the two top items of their kind.

I voted for Speer because it's very accurate in my guns and I've not tried BB and think its cost and heavier recoil may make it less ideal for many shooters. And it may lead barrels. Does the std. pressure BB load use a gas check, like the stouter one?
Yes, I believe the BB load uses a gas check. I've never had leading problems with the BB FBI load, standard pressure or +P (+P in steel K-frames), but I don't think I've fired more than 20 rounds at a time through my guns, often with other ammo. It is a smoky load, though. Maybe that's just the nature of lead ammo. BB is the only lead ammo I've fired in recent years. Everything else has been jacketed.
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Old 02-13-2016, 10:32 AM
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They will both do the job. Both are good proven loads.
I would buy a box of each. A day at the range should tell you the answer.
I would pick the load I could shot accurately with a few fast follow up's.
You and your gun will be able to tell which load you prefer.
Remember , only hits count. Accurate wins the day
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:23 AM
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The heavier bullet is much more effective, especially at close range. It will penetrate clothing much more effectively and go deep!
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:31 AM
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Was too hard for me to find Gold Dots.

I went with Golden Saber+P, which does very well in independent testing across Youtube, at least.
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Old 02-14-2016, 09:36 AM
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I'd choose the Speer load because they publish their FBI protocol test results and they've never substituted a Montana Gold bullet for a Gold Dot.
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Old 02-14-2016, 01:18 PM
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Only caveat I will offer is that I am extremely reluctant to use +P ammo in any revolver without a steel frame.

I know that many of the lightweight revolvers offered in recent years have factory OK for +P ammo, but I remember seeing quite a few with cracked frames years ago, before +P ammo came into wide usage (so presumbly used with standard pressure ammo).

My Model 37 Airweight Chief is over 30 years old. It has never been fired with +P ammo, and it is just as tight and solid as it was when new. I doubt that would be the case after 20,000-plus rounds of high pressure ammo.
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Old 02-14-2016, 01:47 PM
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I prefer Gold Dots but they are sure hard to find. I actually found a box of GD's in 25 auto yesterday. . .had never seen them before.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:46 PM
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I prefer Gold Dots but they are sure hard to find. I actually found a box of GD's in 25 auto yesterday. . .had never seen them before.
If you're looking, try Sportsmans Guide. They have some at an OK price and till 11:59 CST tonight, you can get free shipping by using code SH1230.
SGAmmo carries them also, plus a few others. Cheaper than Dirt ( I know, I know) has them and Buffalo Bore, which I've learned is even harder to find. The trouble is their shipping prices are totally insane and prohibitive.
I'll never pay that much.
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Old 02-15-2016, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather View Post
Only caveat I will offer is that I am extremely reluctant to use +P ammo in any revolver without a steel frame.

I know that many of the lightweight revolvers offered in recent years have factory OK for +P ammo, but I remember seeing quite a few with cracked frames years ago, before +P ammo came into wide usage (so presumbly used with standard pressure ammo).

My Model 37 Airweight Chief is over 30 years old. It has never been fired with +P ammo, and it is just as tight and solid as it was when new. I doubt that would be the case after 20,000-plus rounds of high pressure ammo.
Ray, I agree and I sure wouldn't feed a constant diet of +P but I will carry it and practice with standard pressure same weight rounds.
At SD distances the change of impact point would be minimal, if any.
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Old 02-15-2016, 11:40 PM
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The Buffalo Bore +P 158 LSWCHP-GC is faster, has more weight, is dead on accurate and for me at least has been 100% reliable. The downside is it has a stiff recoil from a 2" Snubby.

The Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot 135 grain is also an excellent load but weighs less, has a lot less velocity, but will expand from a 2" bbl reliably. You also gain a little speed for follow up shots because there is less recoil. It also has had 100% reliability with me.

From a 2" barrel you will get 222 foot pounds of energy from the Speer GD and 379 from the BB. So the BB has 70% more ME over the Speer GD but you will pay the price with recoil.

My advice would be to shoot both and decide for yourself. Some can't handle the BB and others have no problem. If you find the BB to be objectionable, the Speer GD is the next best IMHO.
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Old 02-25-2016, 04:41 PM
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I want to say thanks to all who voted and/or commented here.
It's been informative.
Nearly 2 to 1 in favor of the Gold Dots. I thought it would have been closer to even.
Thanks again!
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Old 02-25-2016, 05:04 PM
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Jessie...This is what one of my former EMS partners told me...

"The Gold Dot SB is an excellent load but I worked a shooting where it was used as a back up and of the 3 rounds hit, 2 COM, The bullets expanded fine penetrated about 2-3 inches before stopping. One nicked the Great vessel but he got to a trauma center in time. Only a t-shirt was worn as it was hot out. Range I figured was about 5 feet angling up from ground position."

I believe this is an isolated case but I do favor the penetration of a 158grn LSWC-HP to try and circumvent this.
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Old 02-25-2016, 05:11 PM
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I'm actually using Hornady's ammunition in my snub guns presently but I selected Buffalo Bore because it weighs more and I like heavier bullets, even if I don't always practice what I preach.
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Old 02-25-2016, 05:55 PM
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For someone who can really handle the BB load, I believe it to be the better one shot stopper. For those who can not handle it(and it is a hand-full from a light J Frame), they are better off with more hits on target with the Gold Dots than they are with more BB misses. The 70% increase in Muzzle Energy of the Buffalo Bore load is NOTHING to sneeze at!!

While I am not privy to FBI shooting statistics, you just can't argue with 158 grain soft HP lead bullet moving at 1025 - 1040 feet per second with a M/E of 379 foot pounds! The ONE AND ONLY argument one can make about the GD over the BB is the recoil, HOWEVER recoil is a SERIOUS factor here.
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Old 02-25-2016, 06:27 PM
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The good 135 gr. +P gold Dots, short barrel, are available, now, in 50 round LE boxes for $26.95 and cheapest shipping I've seen:

50 round box - 38 Special +P Speer Gold Dot 135 grain Hollow Point Ammo - 53921 | SGAmmo.com
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:21 PM
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I voted for the Speer load but only because it's most accurate in my carry revolver. I would be just as happy with the FBI load if it were more accurate in my revolver. Check the accuracy of both and carry the one that is most accurate in your revolver.
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:06 AM
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Knowing what the gun weighed would make a difference in my vote. 11, 15, 20 oz? A 9mm 124g making 300 ft/lb ( EDIT- it is 357 FT/Lb, average 1139 velocity) from my friend's 17oz LCR is more comfortable to shoot than the Buffalo bore heavy 158 ( about 300 ft/LB) out of my 11+oz 340PD. But I think his grips are fluffier. For my 340, I'll go with the Speer, ordered from the above link, thank you. If it averages 860 FPS, that will be 221 FT/LB ME, FWIW. The BB LWSCHP will ride nicely in my 4" shaving gun (named for what it's near) in the bedroom . Houses are close together here.
EDIT, while looking up something else, found my way here <b>.38spl: Hornady FTX vs. Speer 135gr GDHP vs. CorBon 110gr DPX</b> indicating some issues of low velocity with a certain color box of Gold Dot short barrel causing failure to expand after passing through denim. I will be checking velocity for sure when these come in.

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Old 02-26-2016, 10:32 AM
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Please do post your results.
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Old 02-26-2016, 08:23 PM
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I'm asking for a few different barrel lengths and weights. 442/642, 2" 66, and a 4" 10 and 19.
I'm mainly concerned with the short barrels here, but definitely would use the BB in my 4" guns.
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Old 02-27-2016, 11:09 AM
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One nice thing about the Buffalo Bore Loads, if you happen to miss, on the 1st shot, it'll scare the S**T out of your attacker. It does me, every time I let one go!!!
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Old 02-27-2016, 08:14 PM
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Speer GDSB. I'm speaking only for myself, but I steer clear of "boutique" loadings.
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Old 02-28-2016, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
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Please do post your results.
You subscribe, I'll post. I'll keep 5 warm and shoot 5 at outside temperature. And I'll check for crimp jump with calipers. If they don't get here earlier enough Monday, I'll have to wait until Wednesday. (EDIT-it probably won't be here until late Wednedsay, but I should get it done Friday, then.) But I'm anxious to get this velocity thing settled. They claim these fully expand at 860. That page I referred to above has a yellow box variation averaging 853 fps and a black box version averaging 808 fps. If the velocity is low, I will take it up with Speer.
If you happened to click the link in my post above, you would see on an undated page that the short barrel GD from the black box averaged 808 FPS. That's a failure. I tested 10 GD short barrel "seconds" and they averaged 802 FPS. Coincidence? Or did some bad ammo get past quality control? (yes they sell seconds as practice rounds, or at least they did 5 years ago-that is a whole 'nother story. Last week I found some for sale on the internet, re-bagged with no disclaimer. I could tell by the part # and I alerted the seller-he did the right thing and posted the info, dropping the price)
I'm a bit frustrated with the information I'm finding, although there is a lot of decent info out there. Just like the yellow/box black box issue-you find a load you like, then it fails somewhere.
Just for everyone's knowledge here, Underwood makes a 38+p with a Gold Dot hollow point (the standard one with 6 sections) that makes 1061 FPS out of my J-frame, by far the fastest 38 of what I tried, 135 faster than the BB 158g, and actually more comfortable to shoot. (not to say it's actually comfortable) BUT, Speer won't admit it will perform properly at that speed, and nobody tested it at that speed. Underwood has it going 1200 FPS out of a 4" barrel, and I believe it; maybe a worthy load out of a 4" barrel.
EDIT, corrected speed on the BB out of my J-frame

Last edited by pittpa; 02-29-2016 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 03-05-2016, 08:27 PM
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Default Speer 38 Short Barrel chrono results

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Originally Posted by moxie View Post
Please do post your results.
I'm posting yesterday's Speer 38 short barrel chrono results here. As an aside, a vendor at our local gun show had 3 boxes of 38 Speer short barrel for $34 each. I said he should put up a sign. He said I was the first person to notice, and it was after noon.
I went to do this on Wednesday and the chrono battery was dead. Thursday was overcast and I got there too late, too little light. So Friday it was. 36 degrees, but I kept the 10 rounds warm. I separated by weight, as there was a range of about 209-210 grains. I did 5 light and 5 heavier rounds separately. The light ones averaged 806 FPS and the heavy ones 826 FPS, for overall avg 816 FPS. Top speed was 840 and low speed was 760,each from one of the lighter rounds. The spread on the heavier rounds was only 29 FPS, 806 to 835.

Speer advertises this bullet as opening fully at 860 FPS, and that it averaged 863 FPS out of a 2" vented barrel. My 340 has a 1.875" barrel, as do the models 642/442. Another poster in another thread claimed 860 FPS from a 442. The link I posted above <b>.38spl: Hornady FTX vs. Speer 135gr GDHP vs. CorBon 110gr DPX</b> appears to be testing out of a 1.875" barrel, and neither the old nor the new Speer short barrel load made 860FPS.
I have a problem with all of this, as I don't believe the bullet will expand properly under 860 FPS and I've taken it up with Speer. I'm aware of the limitations of a short barrel and the 38 loading, and within those limitations, I want a round that allows me to have reasonable expectations about it's performance. I think Speer did their homework on the 135g bullet, I just need to get it going fast enough.
Note, crimp jump was negligible, a couple thousandths at most.

Last edited by pittpa; 03-05-2016 at 11:50 PM. Reason: Correct what I listed for Speer's test barrel
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:36 PM
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Don't matter all those loads will work if you can hit. This one won't hurt more than the other.
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:20 AM
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Don't matter all those loads will work if you can hit. This one won't hurt more than the other.
That seems pretty vague. Could you be more specific? Will it hurt less? Ammunition performance varies considerably out of a <2" barrel. Does a hollow point round work if it does not expand? If it does not expand, why carry a hollow point?
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Old 03-08-2016, 12:29 PM
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I got a reply from Speer on my chrono results. They initially wrote to me that the SB 38+P was designed for my 340PD. After I reported my results, they replied that "individual firearms may vary" and that it is "still the best you'll findfor short barreled guns". They made no claim that it would perform adequately in the velocity range that I found in my testing.
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:23 PM
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I have carried both loads you mention, but I am now starting to shift my focus to Underwood Xtreme Defender. I think penetration has the edge over expansion in self-defense rounds. My limited experience shooting deer from a 4" .357 mag. revolver showed me that a soft point bullet was very effective. The latest videos regarding the Lehigh bullets loaded by Underwood are very convincing to me. I still don't think that there is anything wrong with your ammo selections and the 158 grain LSWCHP certainly has a history of being effective.
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Old 03-08-2016, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittpa View Post
I got a reply from Speer on my chrono results. They initially wrote to me that the SB 38+P was designed for my 340PD. After I reported my results, they replied that "individual firearms may vary" and that it is "still the best you'll findfor short barreled guns". They made no claim that it would perform adequately in the velocity range that I found in my testing.
Thanks for the work! Frustrating I'm sure.

I recently got 3 of the black box LE 50 rd., #53921. Paid $26.95 per box from SGAmmo.com. The bullets do have 7 petals and the primers have a greenish-blue colored sealant.

As we are again in sturm und drang season here, I will do some chrono work on them as soon as practical, sometime in the next few weeks I hope. The only snubby I have in .38 right now is a Ruger LCR. Results should be comparable to a J frame snub.
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Old 03-08-2016, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moxie View Post
Thanks for the work! Frustrating I'm sure.

As we are again in sturm und drang season here, I will do some chrono work on them as soon as practical, sometime in the next few weeks I hope. The only snubby I have in .38 right now is a Ruger LCR. Results should be comparable to a J frame snub.
Frustrating, yup. The Ruger should be perfect-same length barrel as my 340. Granted my cylinder is a tiny bit longer for the 357 round. I've no idea what effect that may have on velocity; not much I would think, and not on the downhill side.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:45 PM
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To answer your question I do have real-world experience from my days as an LEO. More than once I had to use my issued .38 in the line of duty and it was loaded w/the FBI +P 158 grain hollow point. In each case it worked, I'm still around to enjoy retirement and I continue to carry it in my J frame guns. That said don't depend on a one shot stop, they're usually a myth. Practice making quick & accurate follow-up shots at the range just to boost your chances of coming out on top.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:54 PM
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Old 03-10-2016, 03:27 PM
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Thanks for posting that. Did he really go to all that trouble and not chrono the Speer round that was shot into the gel? Or did I miss something? This is a successful test of a round that we might assume is going at least 825. The failures shown on the AR15 page link, and my low average speed from testing in my gun, still concerns me. Luckily I have the option to use the 357 short barrel and I'm looking into it.
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Old 03-10-2016, 04:06 PM
Tyree1867 Tyree1867 is offline
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Sorry I missed your poll. I like the BB LSWCHP in the short barrels. For woods walking I carry their .38SWC Outdoorsman load in a 3" M19.
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Old 03-11-2016, 11:39 AM
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Thanks badge130. Nice comparison between them.
I was surprised at the penetration of the BB and that it only expanded to 40 caliber.
Except for it being lighter, the GD had about perfect penetration and expansion. Plus, its probably a little faster for a second shot.
Thanks again, great info.
I would be comfortable with either one I think.

Last edited by Jessie; 03-11-2016 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 03-12-2016, 06:26 AM
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I own more snubbies than I like to admit and now that I am retired I read everything I can find about ballistics and such. So far the 135 Gold Dots seem to be the round of choice for me, although they can fail also. Since it's +P I hesitate to use it my older revolvers. I am looking for some tests on the Hornady American Gunner round in .38 Special. I believe it's standard pressure.
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