I'm trying to understand the real difference between these two loads:

Speer Gold Dot 135 grain 38 Special + P

Speer Gold Dot 135 grain 357 Mag short barrel

How much real difference in ME and velocity between these two loads in a 2" snub like my LCR 357.

And the same question in my other "carry-able sized" 357 Magnum -- a 3" M60-15.

Is it really worth going with the magnum round?

Do there two round use the same bullet?

150-200 fps difference from what I've seen. The .38 averages about 840-850fps in my 2" 442-2 and LCR .357, the .357 short bbl hovers around 1000-1050fps and 1150fps in 3" guns.
Provided the .38's are hitting consistent mid 800s in your gun, I'd lean toward them in the super lightweight guns fir more control and easier ejection. In a steel gun, the .357s.

I haven't seen any of the MGN version in a long time. 5 years or so.
I use the plus pee version in my M642, but would like the MGN for my 3 inch M60. An advantage to staying with the plus pee for both is I can carry the same pouches for either revolver.
The bullets should expand in any case, as that was a design criteria of the Short Barrel bullets.

Best,
Rick

Same sausage; .357 has more pepper. From a magnum-capable snubby, I think the .357 option will have a little more "breathing room" to expect that it will properly perform; the flip-side is in barrel's beyond 3", the .357 stands a better chance of being overdriven and the bullet may underperform.

In a LCR 357 the 135gr will be ok but.........

in a real steel 357 K frame or larger the 125gr is all that is needed for a SD load with a JHP design.

From the horse's mouth:

Law Enforcement - Federal Premium LE, Speer LE, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle - Handgun Compare

While loaded into a 357 Magnum case, the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain 357 Mag short barrel load is not loaded to 357 Magnum pressure and falls quite a bit short of true 357 Magnum performance.

It is more like a 38+P+ type of loading

It is a great choice for folks that have not yet become proficient with true 357 Magnum ammunition in their snubbies or those that are recoil sensitive.

Neither have I. I still have the last five rds from the last box I bought, but haven't seen any for sale in years. .38 version is a lot easier to find.

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Because of the metric system?

This company has them is stock. I just ordered 4 boxes.

Also, a while back I bought 5 boxes 50 rounds each of the 38 special +P so I have enough to last a long while.

I don't know how much longer we Californians will be able to mail order ammo, so I figure I'd stock up on these "rare" types.

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Handgun Ammo 23917, 357 Magnum, Hollow Point (HP), 135 GR, 1000 fp - Able Ammo

I love the +P version in my airweights. The 357 would seem to make a good load for my SP101 snub. I'm still actually leaning toward buying a handful of boxes of the Buffalo Bore +P FBI Load for my Ruger and my 4" steel guns. Pricey, tho. I'd still keep the Speer for my aluminum guns.

You want the magnum load, regardless. Can never have enough power when the SHTF, IMO. When S&W produces a J-frame snub chambered for 12-gauge slugs, somebody please wake me up and let me know!

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Would you like wrist braces with that, Kaas?

I was expecting this comment! My reply: Never bet against me.

Good wishes and good shooting!

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Thank you for the link.

At that price, I think I'll just shoot my target with 3 Golden Sabers!

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Because of the metric system?

Target Sports has had the Magnum version as recently as 6 months ago, when I bought a case of it. Unfortunately the magnum only comes in 20 round boxes while the .38 spec version does come in 50 rd LE boxes for about the same price.

The Speer .38 Special load is rated @860 fps and the so called .357 Magnum load is rated @990 fps. It's hardly a magnum load at all and was only produced to make those who bought a ultra light j frame feel better about the price because they are shooting something called magnum. I would and do shoot the +P Speer load because it's accurate they costs less than the Magnum load and the bullets in both will expand at the velocities generated by either. (all IMO of course)

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Per post #13.

Well they got it up to a .410 Ga.........................
Just a matter of time.
Hang in there.

At 860 fps the 38+P load delivers 222 ft lbs.

At 990 fps the muzzle energy of the magnum load is 294 ft lbs.

That's nearly 1/3 more energy.

Could be significant. Also, the higher velocity makes the magnum version more likely to fully expand.

Is the magnum version worth the extra flash and recoil? -- that's the question IMO.

Well, it looks like you guys bought up the stock of the 357 Short barrel. That's one I would have liked to have tried.

Attached Images

button_out_stock.png (6.0 KB, 29 views)

Buffalo Bore 158g 38 +P heavy LSWCHP and Underwood 125+P 125g GDHP make about 300 and 311 ft/lb respectively. I clocked them both. The line between 357 and 38 is definitely blurred here. I don't particularly like shooting either one and don't care to shoot enough of them or a similar loading to get good at followup shots. So on second thought, I don't need to try the 357 short barrel, since it probably kicks just like they do in a 340. I can easily duplicate the 38 short barrel load for lots of practice.

Speer uses the same bullet in both and that 135gr bullet was specifically designed to expand at the lower velocities associated with a short barrel. The expansion of that bullet is not a factor since both generate more that 800 fps, the reported necessary velocity. That bullet expands like a perfect picture used to show what a mushroomed bullet looks like lol.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

The Speer MGN in a 2 inch barrel produces about the same energy as the plus pee version in a 4 inch.
This seems worthwhile.

Best,
Rick

I'd go with the mag load.

That 860 fps is MUZZLE vel. At 10 yards that's going to be down to 800 fps. Add in winter, say 30 degrees, and a couple of layers of clothing and you want as much muzzle energy as you can get.

I'm going to partially duplicate my post from another thread here, as it is relevant. The Speer short barrel 38 did not meet my expectations.
I'm posting last Friday's Speer 38 short barrel chrono results. In the interest of science, I've also ordered 357 135g short barrel to chrono and check recoil. I hope to do that tomorrow.

Temp was 36 degrees, but I kept the 10 rounds warm. I separated by weight, as there was a range of about 209-210 grains. I did 5 light and 5 heavier rounds separately. The light ones averaged 806 FPS and the heavy ones 826 FPS, for overall avg 816 FPS. Top speed was 840 and low speed was 760,each from one of the lighter rounds. The spread on the heavier rounds was only 29 FPS, 806 to 835.

Speer advertises this bullet as opening fully at 860 FPS, and that it averaged 863 FPS out of a 2" vented barrel, or a model 640 2.125" barrel, depending on which of their data sheets you are looking at. I presume 860 is where you get reliable expansion, and below that is hit or miss. My 340 has a 1.875" barrel, as do the models 642/442. This link <b>.38spl: Hornady FTX vs. Speer 135gr GDHP vs. CorBon 110gr DPX</b> reports to be testing out of a 1.875" barrel, and neither the old nor the new Speer short barrel load made 860FPS. Additionally, the round making speed in the low 800 FPS range failed to expand properly in the denim test. Photos of the failed Speer round were included at the very bottom. They listed the round as stock# 53121 instead of #53921, the stock number for the SB 135g round. That must be a typo, since the 135g only shows up in the SB round.

I have a problem with the results here as I don't believe the bullet will expand reliably/properly under 860 FPS and I've taken it up with Speer. I'm aware of the limitations of a short barrel and the 38 loading, and within those limitations, I want a round that allows me to have reasonable expectations about it's performance. I think Speer did their homework on the 135g bullet, I just need to get it going fast enough.
Note, crimp jump was negligible, a couple thousandths at most.
Speer initially recommended this to me, writing " you’re a candidate for the Short Barrel with the 340PD, the part # 23921 (20 round box)was designed for it".
When I brought my chrono results to their attention, Speer replied that "individual guns may vary" and "its the best you’ll find for the short barreled guns." Speer did not make any claim that the bullet would expand or penetrate properly at the speeds I clocked.

That is pure speculation on your part while the engineers at Speer tested it. You will not lose 60 fps in 10 yards and that bullet has been tested and performers.

I carry the .38 Special +P load because it's very accurate in my revolver and the bullet has been tested and passes. You can use what you want but don't guess and use that as a reason to use something else.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

per post #24;

Speer data list a MV of 860 and a 25yd vel. of 838fps.....
in a nice warm testing lab.

Who knows what the temp. of ammo will be if carried on your hip in the winter time.........? The main thing is that it goes bang when needed.

The 135gr shoots to POA in my 38 snub nose.
A 125gr JHP and the 158gr FBI loads need to have "Kentucky Windage" added to be on target in my 1 7/8" revolver at ten feet.

Which is better accuracy or energy ?
Expansion should happen but it is not a given...............

I was finally able to chrono the Speer 357 135g short barrel. I was not expecting over 1000 FPS. 4 rounds averaged 1027 FPS from my S&W 340PD with 1.875" barrel. The fifth round was measured for crimp jump at +.036" and then did not register on the chrono, but felt normal. This round averaged 316 ft/lb muzzle energy and was the most comfortable of the 357 mags I've tested to shoot in my revolver. A lot has been made of the lesser power of this round compared to other 357 mags. The velocity has been kept lower then normal for 357. Speer indicates on their data sheet that the bullet does not perform the same if driven too fast. http://www.cowboy6.com/a40/357_gd04.pdf
Compared to the Underwood 38 +P 125g GDHP at 1060 FPS and 312 ft/lb, the Speer 357 short barrel is easier to shoot for me-it did not cut my finger like the other 357 rounds, nor did hit my bare hand as hard. I was not able to check it for accuracy, but I will, as it is at the top of my list for my gun. Granted, If I had a 642 that weighed 4 or so ounces more, the Underwood GDHP or Buffalo Bore158g heavy LSWCHP would be a likely choice depending on accuracy.
FWIW, I did chrono the Corbon 110 DPX Barnes bullet round at an average of 956 FPS.This made 223 ft/lb muzzle energy and was easy on my hand. I realize a lot of folks don't like the penetration propensity of lighter bullets, but I want to share the data with you.

My data from my lcr:

https://thedesertsedge.wordpress.com...nose-revolver/

Useful link! Thank you. Wondering why LCR seems to make consistently higher velocity than my 340 with same length barrel. This is why I test, though.

The LCR has 6 grooves at 1:16
The 340 has 5 grooves at 1:18
Might explain the difference.

I've never been overly impressed with what I'm getting over the chrono from the +p 135gr either. Mostly it's big spreads and down on velocity, even from some of my 'fast' guns. I'd be more confident in the load if it had the advertised numbers instead of 'best case' warm conditions/ fast gun etc to actually meet the performance envelope for that bullet.
As it is, I still think it's a 'good' load and they go bang reliably, at least.
In .38sp, I still lean toward BB and Undewood who load it to its full potential instead of bottom end '+p'.

Which is why I load my own.

Anyone chrono this in three-inch barrels? I'd expect at least 75 FPS higher velocities.

I shot some Gold Dots and Chronied them today.
Here are my results. Nice windless day around 69 deg.
Crony was about 8-10 feet from the muzzle.
I hope to try and replicate this load eventually.

Attached Files

Speer 135 grain Gold Dot 38 Spl +P Short Barrel.pdf (47.5 KB, 245 views)

For those who care to shoot them. I love my model 23 but I prefer my hand not be sore and my finger bleeding.

May I ask what snub you have?

I would too if I could find them.

Great write up! Where did you manage to find the 135 GD SB components?

As an aside, have you done any recent work w/ the Rimrock 158LSWC-HP / .358" ?

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Regards - GCF

Or maybe the Hornady 140gr XTP?

Has anyone compared the expansion and penetration of the 135 SB GDHP with the 158 GDHP?

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Hook686

I've shot quite a bit of the Speer .38 Spl +P 135 GDHP factory load, and my results have generally been the same - inconsistent chrono and accuracy results. Shoots very well in one gun, and completely awful in another - much more so than most factory ammo.

At any rate, here are some recent results, in my guns that the load shoots well in. Speer .38 Special +P 135 grain GDHP, #53921. 49F, 10 feet from the muzzle:

S&W 520, 4" - 997 fps, SD 21, 15Y grp 2.9"
Ruger Service-Six, 4" - 958 fps, SD 23, 15Y grp 1.5"
Charter Police Bulldog, 4" - 971 fps, SD 39, 15Y grp 2.0"
Charter Undercover, 2" - 845 fps, SD 11, 15Y grp 2.7"

I can't see much use for the .357 Magnum version of this load. The bullet was designed to perform - expand and penetrate to 12" - between 800-950 fps. In light 2" guns with short ejector rod throw, the magnum version would not have the controllablity or reloading speed of the .38 version. In a 4" gun, the bullet is overdriven at the magnum speeds, and something of stouter construction might be better.

I own a Mod. 66-2 w/6" barrel (c.1982) and would like to know if it's OK to feed it .38 Special, 138gr ammo??

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"Oooh, where'd that one go??"

In any self defense weapon you Must consider the time after the 1st shot to get back on target for the 2nd shot and all fired rounds after that.

If you don't reload your own self defense ammo and need to rely on commercially produced ammo you need to have faith in it and your ability to put the max number of rounds on target in the shortest amount of time.

So pick ammo carefully and then practice with it until you are satisfied you and it can/will do the job if needed.

It's marksmanship,not the gun and ammo.

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NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN

Your 66-2 is a .357 Magnum revolver; as such, it can safely fire any .38 Special ammunition irrespective of grain.

I just picked up a 64-5 4" barrel and I'm heading to the range next week to try out the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. 38+P's. I've also got some Buffalo Bore 158 gr. LSWCHP's that I believe is what this gun is factory sighted for. We'll see.

Sorry I missed this. I bough 1000 of them when they were available. Haven't found any in a while though but I still have about half that left.

A week ago I was pondering the same question as this thread's title. Loaded up some 357s with the following load.

Standard 357 brass, Winchester nickel, standard primer CCI 500, 9.0 grains of Power Pistol and topped off with a Hornady XTP 140 JHP, solid crimp.

Ran this load through a S&W 640Pro 357 2 1/8" bbl. Shot them through the screens at 6 ft. 5 shot avg was 1087fps. Temperature was 48 degrees and elevation was 2720 ft. Very accurate load.

Should add to my previous post that POA/POI was dead on for windage but 3" low at 15 yds. For a SD round I can live with that! I live 15 miles from the Speer factory and their SD handgun ammo is almost impossible to obtain. I like their stuff but it's like Hen's teeth to locate!

"I've shot quite a bit of the Speer .38 Spl +P 135 GDHP factory load, and my results have generally been the same - inconsistent chrono and accuracy results. Shoots very well in one gun, and completely awful in another - much more so than most factory ammo."

I have heard the same about the short barrel stuff... so, so accuracy. That may be true for some shooters and a particular weapon but they all have their favorites. Some will digest just about anything reasonably well and some are finicky as hell.

I picked up a new S & W model 60-14 the other day and spent the afternoon shooting it yesterday. Ran about 100 rounds through it to break it in and then starting shooting it to see what it would do. I was initially disappointed with it as groups with 125 grain Golden Sabre .357, a personal favorite, 125 grain Gold Dot .357 and 140 grain Barnes .357 all ran 6-8" and a foot or more above P.O.A. at 20 yards. Just about worthless as a defensive carry pistol as far as I am concerned. 158 grain SWC .38's and 148 grain wadcutters hit closer to P.O.A. and grouped real well though. I tried several 158 grain factory .357 loads and all of them were absolutely brutal to shoot out of the little five shot and accuracy was worse than with the lighter bullets. I figured that 110 grain loads may be the ticket for this particular weapon, then I tried some of the Gold Dot 135 grain short barrel .357's. Here is the first group that I shot with it at 20 yards... 2 1/4". I shot up some other ammo playing with it and then shot a second group, to make sure the first wasn't just a fluke. That group was just about as tight and to the same impact point. The down side is that this Smith has expensive tastes when it comes to ammo, but the upside is it really likes to be fed Gold Dots! I stopped on the way home and picked up several more boxes of the stuff and was able to get the same lot number as the ammo I had been shooting. I couldn't be happier to find a good load that shoots tight and to P.O.A. out of a 2" fixed sighted revolver. 20 yards.... about three times the distance I expect to be using this little piece.

Attached Images

J frame group.jpg (89.6 KB, 53 views)

Way to wring a gun out Stykshooter. Your comments spoke volumes about revolvers. My J frames love 148 wadcutters and throw 158gr SWCs all over the place, but will shoot the 158 JHPs into a good group, but the 640 Pro loves 140 JHPs. Works for me.

Glad you could find that Gold Dot load in 357 I've hunted high and locally for it, as I like to support the locals, but to no luck! Just bought some online and that's a first we will see how the exchange goes!