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Old 04-03-2016, 02:26 PM
Sgt.Y Sgt.Y is offline
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Default .22LR Ammo quality after the drought

My wife and I went shooting her virgin M&P 22 yesterday at the range and bought Federal cheapo ammo half way through the 50 rounds the ammo refused to cycle. We noticed the rounds were loose in the cartridges I have been shooting big bore handguns my whole life I never had much experience with the 22 other than .223 Winchester, not even close. But I knew what was happening was the bullet was not seated in the cartridge properly and was having sealing issues. We were experiencing blowby and it concerned me that we could have a bullet lodge in the barrel due to insufficient pressure. Talking with the manager about the problem he claimed 22's were always loose. I tended to not believe him and felt he was trying to keep a sale. But he did say that all M&P guns were high quality, which I already knew. We returned the two unspent boxes for refund. When we got home later that afternoon, I proceeded to shoot four clips of CCI Choot-ems with no issues. The CCI's were paraffin dipped and has substantially tighter seats than the Federals we bought. My thought is they are cranking out ammo so fast that the machinery may be out of spec, way before they realize it and poor quality control is letting junk get out there. Was it a fluke or have anyone else seen this problem too.

Last edited by Sgt.Y; 04-03-2016 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 04-03-2016, 02:30 PM
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I've seen a few that don't seem to be brand specific and suspect like everything else made today, quality has suffered. I haven't had a failure to fire but did notice some seem to little wiggle.
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Old 04-03-2016, 02:34 PM
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I can remember 22 bullets spinning in the case years and years ago. I just test-spun a couple of different brands and none of them spin. Can't speak to why they wouldn't cycle the action. Maybe a stiff action on a new gun and cheapo low powered ammo?
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Old 04-03-2016, 02:53 PM
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Bulk ammo has always been that way,cci is a step up
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:11 PM
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One thing I did not mention I live in the country so shooting on my property is allowed when firing the four clips.

Any suggestions or lists of quality ammunition, I use winchester white box or PMC Bronze for most of my other calibers for targeting but it seems 22 is an overlooked round from manufacturer for quality.

Last edited by Sgt.Y; 04-03-2016 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 04-03-2016, 04:59 PM
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Perfectly normal for .22lr to be loose. It is not a "sealing issue". The projectile is heeled, where the outer diameter is the same as the case, but towards the back of the bullet, it is smaller so that it fits in the case. The crimp just holds the bullet, but doesn't keep it from spinning.
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Any suggestions or lists of quality ammunition, I use winchester white box or PMC Bronze for most of my other calibers for targeting but it seems 22 is an overlooked round from manufacturer for quality.
I've always had good luck with CCI Mini Mags and luckily we have an LGS here that generally has them in stock for $8.95 per 100 box. The only issue I've ever had with them is a bad primer but this is maybe 1 out of 500 rounds. IMO this is somewhat common with 22lr.
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:16 PM
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Shot up a brick of Remington Cyclone with the grand kids last weekend. Not a bad round in the bunch in a variety of weapons.
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt.Y View Post
One thing I did not mention I live in the country so shooting on my property is allowed when firing the four clips.

Any suggestions or lists of quality ammunition, I use winchester white box or PMC Bronze for most of my other calibers for targeting but it seems 22 is an overlooked round from manufacturer for quality.
22 rifles and ammo are a system when it comes to accuracy; some rifles like certain brands of ammo, often without rhyme or reason, or so it seems. Consequently it's hard to recommend any specific brand for somebody else's rifle. You'll have to try several to find out what your wife's M&P15 likes.

All that said, it is generally known that sub-sonic 22 ammo is more accurate for target shooting out to and beyond 50 yards; the bullets don't tumble when they drop back through the sound barrier. Therefore if you're just punching holes in paper, CCI Standard Velocity is a good place to start, provided that they cycle in your gun. If not, try CCI Mini-Mags, if you can find them.

I've had good luck with SK "Standard Plus", SK "Magazine", and Norma "Match Target"; they all shoot well in my bolt action rifles. My daughter-in-law has one of those Ishmesh Biathlon toggle action rifles that loves Federal bulk 550, the kind we used to be able to get really cheaply at Walmart; she's lucky. You just have to try several brands to see what shoots best for you. The internet is your friend when it comes to locating 22 ammo. -S2
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:55 PM
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I've been shooting for 60 years +, and never had any problems until recently. New production is junk, in my experience. The cheapest rounds you could buy when I was a kid was good stuff. Stick with CCI, if you can find it. Minimags are the gold standard.
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scattershot View Post
I've been shooting for 60 years +, and never had any problems until recently. New production is junk, in my experience. The cheapest rounds you could buy when I was a kid was good stuff. Stick with CCI, if you can find it. Minimags are the gold standard.
When you were shooting .22lr 60 years ago, what were you shooting it out of? I bet it wasn't a semi auto with removable magazine. Probably more likely to be a bolt gun, which rarely have feeding issues... even when using today's "junk" ammo.
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:24 PM
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You're right.
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:32 AM
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federal bulk has the most box to box variability i've seen.
it's just plinking ammo i save for revolvers.
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:40 AM
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I've had awful luck with Remington for the last couple years. I stocked up about 3-4 years ago and have had about a %3 failure rate on that ammo, bought from a LGS and stored at friendly temperatures. Very frustrating! Never had any trouble with any brand .22 until that batch unless it was stored badly and seldom even then.
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Old 04-04-2016, 01:50 AM
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I have a box of Winchester that have some in that are very loose. So loose that they would angle and would refuse to feed in my 15-22. They When I find them, I put them up for my lever action 22.

Everything has cycled in the 15-22 except for the 20 or so that were extremely loose and angled.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:07 AM
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I may be able to shed some light on this. I have a brick of Winchester Wildcats that are 30 years old, at least, and that have been stored in a stable environment since I bought them ( for $9.95, if memory serves). I'll break them out and do a report on them next time I go to the range.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt.Y View Post
My wife and I went shooting her virgin M&P 22 yesterday at the range and bought Federal cheapo ammo half way through the 50 rounds the ammo refused to cycle. We noticed the rounds were loose in the cartridges I have been shooting big bore handguns my whole life I never had much experience with the 22 other than .223 Winchester, not even close. But I knew what was happening was the bullet was not seated in the cartridge properly and was having sealing issues. We were experiencing blowby and it concerned me that we could have a bullet lodge in the barrel due to insufficient pressure. Talking with the manager about the problem he claimed 22's were always loose. I tended to not believe him and felt he was trying to keep a sale. But he did say that all M&P guns were high quality, which I already knew. We returned the two unspent boxes for refund. When we got home later that afternoon, I proceeded to shoot four clips of CCI Choot-ems with no issues. The CCI's were paraffin dipped and has substantially tighter seats than the Federals we bought. My thought is they are cranking out ammo so fast that the machinery may be out of spec, way before they realize it and poor quality control is letting junk get out there. Was it a fluke or have anyone else seen this problem too.
22LR rounds must have a good crimp on them to assure good ignition. If the crimps are erratic, IT WILL lead to poor performance, bloopers, and failure to cycle properly. Was the Federal "cheapo" ammo perhaps Federal AutoMatch? For some reason, Federal seems to periodically have machine setup problems that lead to this. I'd suggest making a note of the lot numbers off those boxes and give Federal a call. My guess is that they'll gladly send you a UPS return label and pay you to send the faulty ammo back. I went thru this with them about 2 years ago and they were more than happy to get the duds back.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:45 AM
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I haven't checked it lately but in the past, I've noticed that a lot of the cheap bulk 22LR would spin in the casing. I've also noticed some that sounded low powered when fired and of those, some that wouldn't cycle my weapon. I stopped using those years ago though, because most are very "smokey" and will dirty up your gun after just a few rounds. Even the brick of CCI Blazer I bought would smoke us out at the indoor range.
It's a bit more expensive but now, I stick to brands such as Armscor and Fiocchi when I can find them in stock.

P.S. As I stated in one of my range reports, American Eagle 22LR is also VERY dirty and inconsistent so, you may want to avoid those as well.

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Old 04-04-2016, 10:48 AM
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All of the above are some of the reasons I've switched over to SK. CCI SV used to be my go-to 22LR ammo. But, prices of CCI SV have gone way up and typically one can only buy a brick at a time - if it can be found. These days, SK Standard Plus isn't horribly expensive compared to CCI SV and can usually be found in case lots. For me, SK has not exhibited the quality variances the big domestic producers and I don't need to scour the universe to find CCI SV a brick at a time.

SK brings out the best in my 22s. The greasy lube is annoying. However the lube may be responsible for making a recalcitrant Model 41 much better behaved. And >that< makes me happy!
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Old 04-04-2016, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyphertext View Post
When you were shooting .22lr 60 years ago, what were you shooting it out of? I bet it wasn't a semi auto with removable magazine. Probably more likely to be a bolt gun, which rarely have feeding issues... even when using today's "junk" ammo.
Well 50 years ago I was shooting a Ruger 22 pistol and never
had any ammo problems with it. The only problem I had was
getting the Ruger back together after you disassembled it. There
was no utube video! Pete
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Old 04-05-2016, 02:24 PM
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Here they are. 30years old, and all the bullets are tight in the cases, with no oxidation or tarnish. I hope to shoot some of them tomorrow, and will report back.
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Old 04-06-2016, 07:55 PM
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Went to,the range today, with my 10/22 and Ruger MkII. Group size with the rifle was the same with both types of ammo. Oddly enough, the only bobble I had was with the CCI MiniMags, one failure to feed. Other than that, the rifle ran flawlessly with the 30 year old cheapo,ammo.

The pistol ran fine with both types of ammo, too, but I had two instances where the empty case ejected, but the bolt didn't pick up the next round in the magazine. This was with the Wildcats.

Not sure what conclusions to draw from this, other than the thirty year old cheapie ammo is at least as good as you can buy today, especially considering its age. For me, MiniMags are still the gold standard, but the older bulk ammo is better than most of the junk you can buy today.

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Old 04-10-2016, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
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When you were shooting .22lr 60 years ago, what were you shooting it out of? I bet it wasn't a semi auto with removable magazine. Probably more likely to be a bolt gun, which rarely have feeding issues... even when using today's "junk" ammo.
About 50 years ago I was shooting .22lr out of a Ruger Standard Model with a removable magazine and had virtually no issues with the ammo. Recently I have noticed a lot of problems with various .22lr ammo from various manufacturers. Mostly with the bulk ammo. Maybe it's my failing memory, but as I recall even the "cheaper" ammo was reliable if not necessarily match grade in the accuracy department. My high school rifle team used to get a lot of Canuck .22lr ammo which we called Cajunk because it wasn't very accurate, but I did used to shoot it in a Ruger semi-auto and didn't have issues with firing or cycling.
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Old 04-10-2016, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susieqz View Post
federal bulk has the most box to box variability i've seen.
it's just plinking ammo i save for revolvers.
I've had the same issue with Federal bulk ammo in my pistols. Multiple FTF, FTL, FTE and stovepipes. I have a few hundred rounds that I will only shoot in my Single Six revolver.
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Old 04-10-2016, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scattershot View Post
I may be able to shed some light on this. I have a brick of Winchester Wildcats that are 30 years old, at least, and that have been stored in a stable environment since I bought them ( for $9.95, if memory serves). I'll break them out and do a report on them next time I go to the range.
I bet you get very good results with the Wildcats. I have been shooting some that is about 20 years old and it is flawless.
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Old 04-10-2016, 11:48 PM
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Eley .22lr ammo has worked well for me. I think it's manufactured in the United Kingdom. There is also a Remington/Eley .22lr which I don't think is as good. I agree that the ammo shortage and subsequent attempt to rectify it resulted in substantially reduced quality control for some ammo companies. BAD Karma for them.
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:49 AM
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You ever watch that show, How It's Made, a while back they were in a factory that was making 22's, they were coming out of that machine so fast, it's a wonder any of them work.
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Old 04-25-2016, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scattershot View Post
I may be able to shed some light on this. I have a brick of Winchester Wildcats that are 30 years old, at least, and that have been stored in a stable environment since I bought them ( for $9.95, if memory serves). I'll break them out and do a report on them next time I go to the range.
That brings back memories. The local Singleton's store would put Wildcats on sale for $5.99 a brick in the early '70s. With a single shot Glenfield bolt gun as my only .22, a brick lasted quite a while.
I don't remember the .22 ammo from the '70s being as dirty as some of the stuff produced recently.
My son's Scout troop bought bulk Winchester .22 before the 2013 ammo drought for Rifle merit badge weekend. That was the filthiest .22 I have ever dealt with.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:25 PM
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Just had my 10/22 out last week. Fired Golden bullets, Automatch, Winchester 333, and 50 year old Remington. All fired perfect. The 50 year old ammo was stored in a relatives attic, with temps from 120 degrees to -20 and humidity. Fired better than most new ammo. So far, I haven't found any ammo my 50 year old 10/22 didn't love.
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:42 AM
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Can't speak for the M&P, but my Ruger home built Volquartsen 1022 seems to just love the hell out of CCI Velocitors. I get 9/16- 5/8" groups at 50 yds. Trouble is I can't seem to find anymore as of late.
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt.Y View Post
One thing I did not mention I live in the country so shooting on my property is allowed when firing the four clips.

Any suggestions or lists of quality ammunition, I use winchester white box or PMC Bronze for most of my other calibers for targeting but it seems 22 is an overlooked round from manufacturer for quality.


Any of the brands that come loose in a box of 3-500 are just bulk ammo.They might work just fine or not.Your guns may shoot them fairly accurately or not.The next step up in quality is CCI.Standard velocity will probably give you the best groups,but the high velocity stuff is worth a try.Norma,eley,etc cost even more and are even higher quality. CCI is a good compromise between price,quality and consistency for most types of shooting
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:08 AM
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Ive had duds with thunderbolts, and more disappointingly, a 22 mag dud with Winchester tmj.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:11 PM
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At the range today with my M&P 22 full size. I was having trouble with Rem Golden and FT eject. Found some of the casings would swell and were hard to extract. I replaced the extractor and spring, Every roun extracted but some did not eject. The reason, I think, is the swelled casing would slow retard the slide so the case did not hit ejector hard enough.
Measured some of the problem cases and found them to be 3or4 thousandths inch larger than some spent CCI MM cases. Also found one case that had split open.
Never had trouble with Golden before.Was one of my "go to" rnds
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:33 PM
johnnywitt johnnywitt is offline
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The ammo from the 80's and before was different bacause there was no "Bulk" Ammo. The Major Brand Ammo and even the 2nd Tier Ammo like Wildcats, in the 70-80's were still pretty good quality, but I bet in Inflationary Adjusted Dollars they used to cost more per round. The good SV & Target Ammo today is probably as good as it was back then as well as the CCI offerings. Shotgun Shells were more Dinero too if adjusted for Inflation and were of commensurately higher quality. The good news is that you can buy **** ammo for the Kids to shoot, or you can pony up and get medium to top quality if that what you need. More options today and it gets sent straight to your door & you don't have to have your ammo purchases recorded under Federal Law like you used to before Reagan signed the FOPA. Like anything, some things have gotten better and some things have gotten worse. Mostly better though IMO.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:48 PM
hoc9sw hoc9sw is offline
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Originally Posted by johnnywitt View Post
More options today and it gets sent straight to your door & you don't have to have your ammo purchases recorded under Federal Law like you used to before Reagan signed the FOPA.
I don't remember ever having had any ammo purchase recorded with my name. I've been a buyer since about 1968.These days everything on-line can be tracked, so I feel much more at risk now.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:58 PM
johnnywitt johnnywitt is offline
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Originally Posted by hoc9sw View Post
I don't remember ever having had any ammo purchase recorded with my name. I've been a buyer since about 1968.These days everything on-line can be tracked, so I feel much more at risk now.
Prior to the FOPA if you bought Handgun Ammo they recorded it: amount Purchased and your DL. It was like buying a gun. This was Federal Law, so it didn't matter if you were in Texas, or Massachusetts.
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Old 05-11-2016, 10:12 PM
hoc9sw hoc9sw is offline
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Prior to the FOPA if you bought Handgun Ammo they recorded it: amount Purchased and your DL. It was like buying a gun. This was Federal Law, so it didn't matter if you were in Texas, or Massachusetts.
Don't remember that. But most of mine, even for allowed private use, came from Quartermaster Stores, and later the County range depot, so I guess I was tracked by default. And chemo-brain fog gets in the way.
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Old 05-11-2016, 10:42 PM
johnnywitt johnnywitt is offline
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Originally Posted by hoc9sw View Post
Don't remember that. But most of mine, even for allowed private use, came from Quartermaster Stores, and later the County range depot, so I guess I was tracked by default. And chemo-brain fog gets in the way.
It's been a long time since that kind of nonsense was the law of the land. But, the price of the the FOPA included the Hughes Amendment that bars ownership of Full Autos manufactured after May, 1986. Not that FA does much for ya in a hand held weapon platform, but its fun to shoot a FA .22, pistol caliber weapon. The neato factor is pretty high. Oh well, kinda got off track here. The worst RF Ammo I ever had was the Remington GB Bulk from circa 2010, or so that gave OOB in my FA Uzi Conversion Kit- that and the ****** Thunderbolts that had the super soft lead and would dangerously lead up barrels. Seems like Remington fixed this though. The Latest Remington GB I have bought shot pretty decent out of my AA Glock 19 Kit. Remington used to be some really good ammo. The Rem.Target was exceptional in some of my older guns. I hope to see them return to the fine quality ammo standards they used to have.

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Old 05-12-2016, 12:48 AM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
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I remember the ammo log book I had to keep as an FFL back then. I first got my FFL in '73 and ammo sales were logged in a separate bound book. It was part of the 68GCA regs.
The only time mine was ever checked or questioned was during the Son of Sam thing in NYC. Recv'd a letter from ATF wanting to know if anyone in the book had purchased Winchester or Western brand 44Sp'cl ammunition.

re todays .22rf ammo. Not having a happy time with the stuff I've been getting which is mostly Remington Golden Bullet stuff.
Lots of duds,,we set them aside from bulk packages and found 7 to 9%.
Pulled the bullets on a few and find the primer compound is distributed very hit and miss into the rim inside. The rest we shot up on second and 3rd trys. A couple never did fire.
When they do work they're accurate enough for me. But lots of strange sounding firings. A couple made me check the bore for a squibb,but none occured.
Over all not happy ammo.

Some Federal HV has been good but with a few duds also. No where near the level of the Remingtons though.

Some Remington Thunderduds (bolts) which I said I'd never buy again after the heavy leading problems a few years back found their way into my range bag. Must have been lured by cheap pricees!.
I was surprised,,they all fired fine and were accurate in my rifles (Win63 and 90) and no leading.

I lucked into some 1970's Winchester T22 bricks, 5 of them for $35e. so that'll keep me and my elderly 22's happy for a while
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Old 05-12-2016, 08:02 AM
Joe Hohmann Joe Hohmann is offline
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I've had great luck with Remington Golden Bullets, however, I buy them by the 100 pack, not bulk. It is one of the few brands my model 41 "likes", plus, I have not had a misfire after 400+ rounds. My 25yd target yesterday shows no shots past the 8-ring after 35 rounds.
The specs are different between the 100 pack vs 500 or bucket (why this should be, I have no idea).
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Old 05-12-2016, 08:26 AM
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CCI mini-mags have not failed me yet.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:25 AM
BigMuddy BigMuddy is offline
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I've used a lot of Federal Auto Match and thought it was pretty good. A recent "find and purchase" resulted in a bulk box that will not cycle a semi auto handgun. Not one round worked. They all fired but none had enough power to cycle the action. I suspected a cost cutting reduction in powder.

The Thunderbolts bring back memories. When I was in college I got my first handgun, an H&R .22 M950. I used to buy a brick of Thunderbolts every week when I got paid before I wasted my money on things like food and rent. I shot that gun at least 500 rounds per week. Good times!

I also remember having to sign for ammo. When that started (1968?) my mother would get so mad every time my brother and I needed .22 ammo because now SHE had to go get it for us.

Dan

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Old 05-13-2016, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt.Y View Post
My wife and I went shooting her virgin M&P 22 yesterday at the range and bought Federal cheapo ammo half way through the 50 rounds the ammo refused to cycle. We noticed the rounds were loose in the cartridges I have been shooting big bore handguns my whole life I never had much experience with the 22 other than .223 Winchester, not even close. But I knew what was happening was the bullet was not seated in the cartridge properly and was having sealing issues. We were experiencing blowby and it concerned me that we could have a bullet lodge in the barrel due to insufficient pressure. Talking with the manager about the problem he claimed 22's were always loose. I tended to not believe him and felt he was trying to keep a sale. But he did say that all M&P guns were high quality, which I already knew. We returned the two unspent boxes for refund. When we got home later that afternoon, I proceeded to shoot four clips of CCI Choot-ems with no issues. The CCI's were paraffin dipped and has substantially tighter seats than the Federals we bought. My thought is they are cranking out ammo so fast that the machinery may be out of spec, way before they realize it and poor quality control is letting junk get out there. Was it a fluke or have anyone else seen this problem too.
The only .22 ammo I have seen with loose fitting bullets
were Remington Goldens I have two buckets of them
they shoot out of revolvers , or my Henry but forget anything else
semi auto with one exception my GSG AK 47 .22 I put 50 through it with no malfunctions. I use the Federal auto match , they are pretty close to CCI's , even my Sig Mosquito likes them
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Old 05-13-2016, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJM15 View Post
The only .22 ammo I have seen with loose fitting bullets
were Remington Goldens I have two buckets of them
they shoot out of revolvers , or my Henry but forget anything else
semi auto with one exception my GSG AK 47 .22 I put 50 through it with no malfunctions. I use the Federal auto match , they are pretty close to CCI's , even my Sig Mosquito likes them
Two of the best .22 rounds I have shot were the Aguila
super maximums, and CCI stingers the CCI's 1640 fps velocity
the Aguilas 1700 fps . The CCI's actualy have a longer case then the standard to hold more powder, and believe me they sound like it too. Tried my Henry with a 3-9 40 scope on the 100 yds range with the Stingers and could punch 3" groups
Just a problem finding them
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Old 05-13-2016, 06:26 PM
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2 hours ago, I bought 3 boxes of Winchester 22lr.
Each box has 555 rounds of 35 grain hp's.1280 fps.
Price was 27.95 per box purchased at my Walmart, plus tax.
So, ammo is becoming more available.
And EVERY table at the last gun show had plenty to sell,,,,but at a much higher price.
Adding this to my current inventory, I think I now have enough for a lifetime.

Last edited by mrchuck; 05-13-2016 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 05-15-2016, 03:32 AM
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I can't tell you about the quality of 22LR ammo post shortage because where I live the shortage is still going on. We have none.

As for the bullet being lose, they use a healed bullet in rimfire ammo, not the same same bullets in other ammo.
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Old 05-15-2016, 10:13 AM
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i use the upper end of medium priced ammo.
there are no loose bullets.

bulk is bulk.
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Old 05-15-2016, 10:42 AM
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Regarding MrChuck's remark above about lifetime supply of .22...

It occurs to me that as we age, having a "lifetime" supply of ammo is easier to achieve! I'm 62 now, and doing the math, I likely will not have to buy .22 again.
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