I'm still curious about that leopard taken with No. 4 buck. Has anyone else here done that? With any size of buckshot?

I saw the post about Boddington having 00 buck bounce off the head of a leopard. But big cats have sloping skulls and the mane on a lion makes the head look like a better target than it is. A bullet just zips through that hair and doesn't enter the skull below. Read about that when I was a young teen and committed it to memory. So far, haven't needed to know, but I want to.

The sloping skulls of cats tend to deflect bullets. It's better to hold low on their chests or break a shoulder. Or, so I've read, and I thoroughly believe it. Capstick and his hunter once shot a charging lion 11 times before it died. Not with buckshot, either. They used a .375 H&H and a heavier rifle, I think a .470 or .500. Harry Selby used a .416. Said it was ideal for lions, which he liked to see go all limp with the first shot.

Craig Boddington has a lot of field experience. I'm surprised that he'd shoot a leopard in the head. Maybe he was trying to blind it in a charge?

I heard an interview by a PH in Africa that had been mauled by a wounded leopard. Seems a client had wounded a good sized male, approx. 135 pounds. The PH was using a 12 gauge double as a follow up guns. Loaded with 2, 00 buck rounds, he came face to face with a charging leopard. Two shot did not slow down the cat and a mauling was the results. He said he would never again use buckshot and felt comfortable that had he had his double rifle or the shotgun loaded with slugs, he would not have leopard scar.

Did you read about David Ommaney? Nasty case of this. But leopard maulings are never good. Thankfully, with air ambulances now and antibiotics, the chance of a mangled survival is much greater than it once was.

Harry Wolhuter killed a lion with his knife. Very lucky. His shoulder, by which the lion had dragged him, never healed right. Read about him on the Net if you don't know that case. There's a monument where the attack happened in 1903.

Several South African custom knifemakers have replicated Wolhuter's simple knife, a sort of butcher's sticking pattern by I. Wilson of Sheffield. If you think of the Russell Green River Dadley knife, you'll be pretty close.

Two lions charged Wolhuter on his horse, which threw him off and bolted, his rifle on the saddle. No handgun. His Africans ran, although they later found him and got him to hospital.

I have shot a truck load of 00 buck, not at game. My dad was a
supervisor in a power plant. They shot "clinkers" that would start
to form in the boilers. On dreary Sunday's dad would take me
down to plant to shoot clinkers. A man had to crouch down to
shoot, a kid didn't. Most guys didn't like to do it but I would
shoot all I could. They had Win 37 Industrial model shot guns.
The 00 wasn't very effective in this role at more than 20'. They
had slugs too. We always had Free 00, but found little use for it.
When fox hunting at night with call, dad always used #4 buck.
I was deer hunting in Virginia one time, and a local had a Ithaca
Turkey gun, 308/12g. He called it the 1-2 punch. When a deer
run through a thicket, he touched it off with 00, when it was done
rolling he nailed it with 308. Worked good for him!

If you want to impress your friends.....Take a 12 ga. 0 or 00 buck shell.....Open it and pour out the shot.....Drill a small hole through the center of each one.....Take a piece of 50 lb or so fishing line.....KNot one end......Slid the buckshot onto the line.....When filled knot the other end......Fold back into the shell and crimp......VIOLA!.....Palm size patterns at unbelievable distances.....Saw a man win a bet one time with one these "doctored" shells.

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S&W Accumulator

From website
Lessons Learned:

1) “Precision” is not really a shotgun word.
2) There is only one way to know what your shotgun will do at any range… You must test it. And re-test it. With a specific shotgun and a specific load.
3) Different loads will have much different spreads at the same distances. At TR, I tried a fellow shooter’s high quality buffered and hardened buckshot and my gun shot them into much smaller patterns.
4) At close range, a 12 gauge shotgun is a very powerful weapon. But it lacks precision and this gets much worse at longer ranges.
5) A carbine has the precision that the shotgun lacks.
6) It’s fun to shoot stuff. (My favorite)

"VIOLA!"

I see that word mis-spelled a lot. A Viola is a stringed musical instrument. Voila is a French word for "there it is," or "there you are."

Isn't the whole purpose of a shotgun to spread around the pellets somewhat to increase the likelihood of hitting a target in motion? If you want a big hole from a shotgun, use a slug. Virtually nothing will survive a solid hit from a slug.

Mike - I'm not a hunter, but I can back your claim. The one and only time I went deer hunting, I shot a deer at about 40 yds with 00B and a pellet broke both sides of its lower jaw, another went through and through the chest cavity.

The ballistic kinetic energy of a 00 Buck pellet fired from a shotgun is about the same as, or actually a little better than, a round ball fired from a Civil War era .36 cap and ball revolver. A lot of men have pushed up daisies after being shot by a ball fired from a .36 Colt Navy revolver. That's what Wild Bill Hickok used - he practiced with his every day.

Many years ago I saw that lion's skin, with knife wounds, on a wall in a camp in Kruger Park, along with Wolhuter's knife and belt. As the lion dragged him off by the shoulder, Wolhuter felt for its heartbeat with his hand and stabbed it there, killing it, while still in the lion's jaws. Then Wolhuter heard more lions coughing in the bush nearby. He managed to climb a tree and lashed himself to a branch with his belt before he passed out from blood loss. It was there the Africans found him a while later.
Thanks for the memory.

#1 Buck Shot is .30 cal and #4 Buck Shot is .24 cal

A 3 inch 12ga #4 shell has about 41 pellets.

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A Snider squibbed n the Jungle

I flit here late but I'm also a #4 Buckshot fan and user. Nothing wrong with 27 .24" projectiles going at the bad guy all at once lol.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Ballistic personal defense weapons work by penetration. A broad pattern can't make up for shallow penetration. You need depth more than width.

Think of #4 buck as a bunch of .24 ACPs with 20 grain bullets fired at the same time. Numbers don't make up for the lack of penetration.

Additionally, shotguns must be aimed. Lots of pellets don't necessarily improve the chances of a hit, only the number of hits. I.e., increased density of pattern, not width of pattern.

For defense against humans, don't go smaller than #1 buck.

Home Defense Shotgun Ammo

'The Firearms Tactical Institute reports:

"Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances.'

I never said you don't have to aim a shotgun and never said numbers make up for lack of penetration. All I said is getting hit with 27 .24" projectiles concentrated is a small area of your body will really ruin your day. The blood loss is significant from so many wounds. The Federal shells I'm using are rated @1325 fps at the muzzle. Inside a 10 foot hallway getting hit CM with that would be fatal.

I have seen the results of this ammo so I'm not guessing or being an armchair commando who gets his info from a forum. I'm not coming back to this thread so have fun disagreeing with me because I won't see it.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

The objective is to stop them. 'Fatal' is irrelevant.

I would not use any shot size smaller than #1. I did have some 7 or 7 1/2, but it is for trap shooting and the like. I used to have a link to something Doc Roberts had written that I thought was more recent than this string 12 gauge shotgun loads for LE duty use | Lightfighter Tactical Forum on LF, in which he discussed the differences in actual crush damage etc. and how #1 was superior to #4 or 00. This will have to do. Maybe a google search for more recent info will return something ... he might have even posted something newer on ARFcom, but other than finding and linking to his stuff there, I avoid that site.

My academy, even in 1989, was advocating rifle over shotgun, but of course since most departments were too rigid to apply valid thought of such a radical nature, they taught slugs as the default load for those stuck with shotguns. In the real world, for most personal defense and LE use, a properly set up (not more than 16" barrel, flashlight, Aimpoint, 2 point sling) AR platform with properly validated ammo such as described here 5.56 mm Duty Loads | Lightfighter Tactical Forum is almost always better except for large dangerous animals.

On one floor of the house I have an AR set up as above. If I were willing to invest the cash and hassle, I would have the upgrade of choice, an 11.5" barrel with a can. On the other floor, I have a Mossberg 590 with a Surefire front end, but otherwise set up like the AR (Aimpoint, 2 point sling) and the VangComp treatment. For some reason, the Federal rounds we were issued (00 Flite Control) did not do as well in that shotgun as they did in our car shotgun. My general load is 000 because of the short distances in the house, 10-12 yards for almost any shot. If I went back to LE, it would likely be slugs, and not a Foster type, but the hard Brenneke type, appropriate for use against a vehicle.

If you using buck, you have to pattern each load, and likely each lot of each load, in your shotgun. It's one of the good reasons to have individually assigned long guns as a friend's agency does. (They have 14" 870s, which is a decent choice around cars; I can't see any circumstance under which I would give serious thought to any barrel longer than 18".)

Over-penetration CAN be a concern, but is not my primary concern. The first step in avoiding that risk is to hit the target and use the offender's body to slow down the projectiles. ARs are less prone to it in the home defense setting than shotguns and handguns, which tips me that way, plus they are easier to shoot and reload if one is adequately trained, and lighter with much less recoil.

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NHI, 10-8.

I suppose I'll chime in on a few points, as I sometimes do.

The Flight Control wads being mentioned in this thread have impressed me greatly. Every test I've seen has been very impressive, giving extremely dense patterns, even at extended ranges.They can turn a shorter barreled shotgun with a poor choke into a real reach out and touch em shotgun. My only personal experience with them is turkey load 10 gauge, which does as advertised with such tight patterns. I'm always critical of everything, especially new stuff, but the boys in lab coats really hit one out of the park with these.

As for shotgun barrel lengths, they do matter at range with any shot type, and every reputable source I've ever read states that although the fast burning powders are all burned up around 18 inches of the barrel, the gas and other dynamics show there is a general degradation and loosening of patterns with barrels short of 24 inch. It was interesting to read what Mr. Doug M. had to say about 14 inch barrels, such a barrel setup would be a poor choice for buckshot both pattern wise and even terminal performance wise.

As far as birdshot goes, its a really tricky question, because small changes in range can quickly turn an effective load into almost useless. A bird load that can act like a slug at 3 yards will spread out and bounce off at 10 yards, depending on all variables, of course. Throw in the fact a lot of people are getting 18 inch barrel unchoked barrels, and you have the recipe in the making for a failure to stop. Yes, they can kill and stop attacks, but with better choices, the argument does not carry all that much weight.

As for the original question in the thread, the scie-ma-tologists have proclaimed #1 buckshot to be the most effective per shot weight in theory. After reading all of the reasons why, I can concur with their logic and methods, it is ideal at realistic buckshot ranges for maximum pellets without losing effective penetration. Why aren't buckshot users in the remaining departments and other shooters who use shotguns for self defense fleeing 00 buckshot? Because there was never a problem in the first place. When the classic military 9 shot 00 buck load failed, it was due to a bad pattern from a poor setup, or user failure. Ain't broken, don't fix.

Is #4 buckshot a solid choice? It has been argued on and off on forums like this since the dawn of internet firearm forums, and even among experts for a very long time. I'll say most likely, but #1 will fill in every "what if" scenario if by some chance you have to make a long shot. Also, the whole 9 pellet 00 buckshot thing doing well enough. Each pellet of 00 or #1 can be potentially deadly or destructive at range, where #4 has potential to fail.

Honestly, I see the #1 vs 00 debate like comparing two race cars side by side, yes one may be faster on a certain track, but both are plenty fast, I suppose. Either choice will work, even if in theory #1 is better, whatever patterns and is cheap enough to train with is important. Most important of all, as others of said in this thread, pattern, pattern, pattern, if you choose shotgun for self defense.

Buy samples of all sorts of buckshot loads and see which one works in YOUR gun, with YOUR choke, for YOUR purposes. If possible, reload some shotgun shells yourself with various shot sizes, weights, velocities, buffers, ect., and learn firsthand. There is no substitute for understanding YOUR gun and load.

FWIW, the LE perspective on 14" barrels on shotguns, and 11.5" on ARs, is driven in part by being able to remove them from the rack and sling up while still in the car, and also the need to actively hunt bad guys under circumstances in which the longer barrels can be in the way (tight spaces, etc.)

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NHI, 10-8.

I understand well the reasons for the shorter barrels, and respect the reasons and rationale. I simply point out that every change has positive and negative, and shorter barrels aren't perfect. A moot point I suppose with civilians, because most don't want the hassle and paper work for an NFA SBS in the first place. For defensive purposes, a good argument can be made for both, the shorter gun in close spaces, or someone in a defensive position not gaining anything from the shorter barrel from a static position.

Warning: Graphic description!!

I was a police officer in a mid sized city in Alabama for over 23 years. I responsed to or worked an average of 10 homicides a year. I have seen death caused by knives, axes and every thing from .22 short up to 12 gauge. Shotguns are very messy. One of the strangest deaths was a suicide were a young man stuck a sawed off 12 gauge in his mouth and pulled the trigger. We found his body in the north bound lane of US 11 and his entire brain on the pavement, about 10 feet away, steaming in the 25 degree F air. It looked like the brain was removed by a surgeon and laid in the road. I believe the load was 7 1/2 birdshot.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Just to put things in perspective regarding the #4 Buckshot. Assuming fairly short ranges, the energy per #4 pellet is about 80 ft-lb. The .25 ACP 50 grain bullet in typical standard loadings produces between 55 and 65 ft-lbs.

Let's say that at 15 yards or less, conservatively, a target receives at least half the usual 27 pellet load, let's say 13 pellets (equivalent to more than 16 hits with a .25 ACP). The total energy delivered to the target would be 13 x 80 = 1040 ft-lb. That's a lot more than from several .45 ACP hits. Additionally, multiple pellets will probably find their way to penetrate adequately into vitals in the upper thoracic area and head. I think I would be satisfied with that performance. At longer distances, I'd want to use a slug. BTW - my carry gun is a .25 ACP pistol.

Yes, do this! For one thing, it's a heck of a lot of fun. Nearly 30 years ago, I spent weeks testing every variety of buckshot I could find out of my Remington "Standard Deer Gun" (an 870 with a 20" cylinder bore rifle sighted barrel), shooting at 11x17" copier paper mounted vertically to simulate a human torso at 20 yards. I kept meticulous records of every hit on the paper, shooting a minimum of five rounds of each load (sometimes I could only find five rounds--single ought buck was REALLY hard to find).

Eventually, when I'd shot everything I had, standard loads, "magnum" loads, three-inch and other, from No. 4 buck to triple ought, I tabulated all the hits for each load and multiplied by the approximate energy for each pellet to determine the most effective load for that shotgun, as fired by myself.

I started the experiment expecting that either No. 4 or No. 1 buck would prevail, but, oddly, the old reliable nine-pellet 00 buck won, very slightly edging out 12-pellet "magnum" loads. Go figure.

Nearly 30 years on, I still haven't shot anybody with my 870 (or with anything else), but it was loads of fun seeing what that gun could do.

Sad story and no doubt a very disturbing experience. The end
result was greatly influenced by the same old "shot
placement" effect that is often mentioned. There was a guy
who worked for the same company that I retired from after
almost 41 yrs of service that nearly everyone who worked
there seemed to at least have worked with or knew who he
was. I saw him at various times over my years there from
beginning to end. Back before I hired on he was going through
a divorce and made a suicide attempt. Stuck the muzzle of a
12 ga shotgun under his chin and pulled the trigger. Maybe
he had to lean back a bit to do it, who knows, but he
survived. I assume that he's gone by now but I don't want to
go into much detail but he worked there for many years after
the incident but with truely horrific consequencies. My point
to all this meandering is to not depend on bird shot for HD.

For the record, 1B is my theoretically prefered size of buckshot. But that's not the main issue here.

Further the prefefed standard for buckshot is all ( or at worst most ) of the pellets striking in the vital area, aka chest. For random shotgun with random buck load , ideal range is up to 15 yds. Much more than that you need to do pattern testing of loads in your specific shotgun.

30Yds is long range for buckshot.

The OP has pattern issues. He needs to test various loads in his gun. The Flitecontrol is justifiably famous for its patterns, but there are a multitude of offerings that utilize hardend pellets, plated pellets, buffering, various wadding, and combinations. In general the low velocity aka low recoil aka Tactical loads have tighter patterns than the high velocity or magnum loads. I'm guessing the OP has a fixed choke, but if one has options, either choke tube, different bbl/ guns, usually IC or Mod will give tighter groups with Buck. And yes various custom bbl mods typified by, but not exclusive to Vangcomp can greatly improve patterns.

So OP should try different loads, starting with Flitecontrol and Federal 132 , to see what works best and/ sufficently tight enough in his gun. While I prefer 1B in theory, most of the premium patterning/ Tactical buckshot loads are in 00B. Federal anounced a Tactical 1B , but I have yet to see any in the flesh. Supposedly it is mfg in moderate quantities, and most goes to LE contracts..

Many people whom I respect, and have first hand experience, swear by slugs only for social purposes. If the OP's intended parameters include 0 to 50 or so yards, give strong consideration to all slug. The above mentioned people swear by old school Foster slugs generally, and W-W 1oz HP in particular. Personally I also have much love for Federal Tru Ball Low Recoil, but availability is spotty.

Yes it is possable to shoot decent sized *groups* at 50yd with bead sight only. The catch is that those groups may or may not be anywhere close to poa, and bead only has no easy way to adjust poi,. Some times will be dead on, sometimes within a cpl inches, sometimes requires a cpl feet of Kentucky Windage.