Title says it all, just wondering.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Title doesn't say anything! What are you looking for? Did you mean PPU maybe? A few extra words aren't that hard to type to clarify a question!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

You will find one with a google search and then click the Images menu item.

Google Images is where I found all of my photos for this loading.

Actually it does. I know exactly what the OP is asking about.

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- Post No Bills -

Nice! PGU and what it replaced. But can we see a PGU round out of the box, showing the deep-seated bullet?

I think that's what the OP wants.

Does anybody have any of this ammo - brass?
What's the head stamp?
I have several thou rounds of GI 38 brass.
I might take a look and see if I have any of this,
if I knew how it's stamped.

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Yes TS, That's what I was looking for. The deep seated bullet. When I was a teen, it was featured in a gun mag. I vaguely remember it but I wasn't too interested in it, at the time. After all it wasn't a magnum, and I was a teenager.

I guess my google is not working properly, or I am not smart enough to work it. I spent a coupla hours trying to find it last night, but no joy.

Pilgrim, It was loaded by Lake City, so I would think it would be LC 79 or whatever year it was made. JMHO........

THANX for the shared info.....

Well, even a blind hog finds an acorn, once in a while.

Here's a pic I found on Gun Broker.....

Head stamp says WCC 88. I'm surprised that it was made that late and by WCC...........

Attached Images

PGU-12_B.jpg (129.8 KB, 277 views)

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Saw this attached photo in an old thread. Looks like PGU-12/B:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...3&d=1257862022

Post #49

S&W In VietNam ?

This begs the question,why are the bullets seated so deeply and what is the ballistics of the load?. Frank

I can't speak to the loading, as I don't reload.


The listed ballistics were 130gr at 1200fps IIRC, much hotter than the M41. I believe these to be test barrel velocities.

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- Post No Bills -

Probably out of a 10" test barrel pointed downhill. Actual velocities out of a 4" were around 900-950fps right? That's still better than the M41 @~730fps.

This is a loose approximation of .38spl ball issued by US. I got this off the net.

1943; Remington Kleanbore .38spl 158gr steel fmj .0008" copper plating 850fps

1956; Cartridge, Caliber .38, Ball M-41 13,000psi approx 725fps 4" revolver "Aircrewman load"

1961; Cartridge, Caliber .38, Special, Ball M-41 16,000psi approx 950fps 6" test bbl, 750fps 4" revolver

1969; Caliber .38 Special, Ball PGU12/B High Velocity Cartridge 20,000psi approx 1125fps 6" test bbl, 950 to 980fps 4" revolver

Legend has it that M-41 had weak bullet pull. Some service members were said to pull the bullets and double the powder charges. This may have caused damage to the guns and shooters. It is said that this led to PGU-12/B having the extreme bullet tension caused by crimping hard over the ogive and rolling a cannelure into the case at the base of the bullet. This, supposedly, made it very hard to pull the bullets.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

So would this be classed as duty ammo or for want of a better term 38 special plus P. Frank

Yes, but heavy use loosened guns much sooner than non Plus P and many needed rebuilding, another argument for adopting 9mm autos. The Beretta M-9 was the result of that quest.

Civilians don't need to practice with Plus P all the time. The guns last longer if fired mainly with std. pressure ammo.

No, for most members it doesn't say anything at all! Not everyone, no matter how long they have been in the shooting sports is a "Cartridge Collector" that studies such obscurities!

Do I have to point out the obvious, that it shouldn't be necessary for anyone reading the OPs initial post to have to resort to "Google" to find out what he is asking about??? Or maybe he just read about this and doesn't really know what he is asking about? Maybe the OP should be the one "Googling" for an answer to his question instead of expecting others to do it for him!

And, FWIW, I knew exactly what he was asking about!

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Gunsmithing since 1961

"Legend has it that M-41 had weak bullet pull. Some service members were said to pull the bullets and double the powder charges. This may have caused damage to the guns and shooters. It is said that this led to PGU-12/B having the extreme bullet tension caused by crimping hard over the ogive and rolling a cannelure into the middle of the bullet. This, supposedly, made it very hard to pull the bullets. "

It's not a legend. It didn't happen a lot, but blowups occurred from overloaded M41 rounds enough so that the USAF thought it necessary to require a very high bullet pull (130 pounds minimum) to prevent its occurrence. All PGU 12/B manufacture was done at Lake City and Western, and about 72 Million rounds were loaded at Lake City there during 1979 and 1980. It was used only by the USAF and was also the only handgun ammunition ever made at Lake City.

It used a 130 grain FMJ lead core bullet. Specs were an average peak chamber pressure of 20KPSI, with an individual round maximum chamber pressure of 24KPSI. MV spec was 1125+50-25 ft/sec (1100-1175 ft/sec), barrel length unstated. Ballistically, very similar to the 9mm M882 round for the M9. I have the actual Lake City PGU 12/B specs and drawings, and didn't Google anything.

Thanks DWalt for the clarification. I have personally never seen one. That's why I was looking for a picture. I was reading about it on the net and became very curious about it.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

If it helps, the COAL is 1.342". The bullet itself has a spherical nose with a 0.137" radius, having a nominal length of 0.593". The crimping cannelure is 0.060" wide and the top of the cannelure is located 0.360" (nominal) from the bullet nose. Maximum bullet diameter is 0.3559". The bullet is also secured in the case by a waterproofing composition. The Lake City bullet drawing is # 17735597

If anyone wishes to make up a duplicate load, the propellant used is 6.0 grains of HPC (Hercules Powder Company) 23. I do not know what canister powder that corresponds to, but very likely is similar to Unique or Green Dot.

The OP was asking about a very specific product: PGU-12/B.

Now, above you posted that you "knew exactly what he was asking about " and yet you previously posted "Title doesn't say anything! What are you looking for? Did you mean PPU maybe?"

Why would you ask the OP if he meant "PPU" when you claim you knew exactly what he was asking about? Maybe you were questioning and/or testing the OP to see if he really knew what he was asking about?

I hope that even the least knowledgeable forum member would realize that the OP was asking about a very specific product and not a PPU product just because PGU may look/sound similar to PPU.

No matter. At least the OP has some reference photos and information about the PGU-12/B.

PGU 12/B is a reference to a very specific cartridge.

To those who know, there is no confusion.

It is a military designation for EXACTLY that cartridge and loading.

What a strange thread.

Attached Images

0093FED6-6D06-483C-A6F0-CD6E05AEB865.jpeg (187.4 KB, 79 views)

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Take a look at #20 in this thread for pictures
.38-44 Ammunition Question

USAREUR, 1986, 1st Armored Division. The Air Force was still using .38 revolvers. The Brigade ALO and his team were attached to the Brigade Headquarters Company for billeting. Their weapons were stored in the unit Arms Room. They had a basic combat load of PGU-12/B.

Army helicopter pilots were still toting 38 revolvers and the Army was issuing them Ball, M41.

The M9 had been adopted a year earlier but it went to Infantry and MP units first. Many, if not most, tankers kept their 1911s and grease guns well into the Gulf.

.38 Special ammo issued in WWII didn't really have a military designation, other than .38 Special ball or tracer. At least the ball ammo came packed in regular Remington civilian 50 round boxes, but it had a 158 grain FMJ bullet. Easy to spot a box of the WWII Remington .38 Special military ammo. It has no index number in the lower right corner.

Or maybe, in your case, a few less...?

Why? What are you looking for?

Attached Images

14E24510-D202-4D03-B666-EF324355F5F2.jpg (25.7 KB, 16 views)

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