It's really more of a question to see if this has been true in anyone else's experience, but have any of you noticed a striking difference in the appearance of LE ammo versus what you get in those little 20-round "boutique" boxes?

Case in point: I ordered .45 ACP 230 gr. Federal HST in 50 count LE boxes, and the cases and jackets are noticeably duller. Not tarnished from improper storage, just not as "shiny." One round that I pulled out of the box at random even had improperly cut skives in the jacket.

Am I correct in assuming that anything you get in the 50 count LE boxes undergoes less stringent QC checks for cosmetics, hence the cheaper price, but is otherwise functionally equivalent to anything you get in a commercial 20 round box? I'm counting the one "ugly" round as a fluke more than anything else.

I don't know, I have no idea if it's true but I've always heard the LE ammo is what gets the more careful QC attention. In any case, I'd rather the QC any ammo gets be that regarding things like OAL, primer depth, etc. moreso than mere cosmetics. I'll take dull-looking consistent good stuff over shiny junk every time.

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SWHF #448

You and me both. As long as it goes "bang" every time and has consistent velocities with minimal SD, appearances don't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Last year I ordered 500 rounds of Winchester Ranger FMJ 180g in .40 cal. Not only was the brass duller and more discolored than Win White Box ammo, there were small globs of excess primer sealant all over the bases of many of the cartridges. I didn't want any of that gumming up my firing pin, so I laboriously scraped it off. On the range, I found the Ranger ammo to be somewhat less accurate than the Speer Lawman .40 cal. target ammo I usually use. Needless to say, I won't be ordering any more Ranger cartridges.

I would like to think that Winchester has more respect for our law enforcement people than to send them ammo like that. I suspect that the Rangers I was able to buy were rejected either by Winchester quality control, or by law enforcement agencies themselves, and thus were made available to the general public.

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What, me worry?

What do you mean by boutique ammo?

LE ammo is typically the most tested. I don't pay attention to how shiny it is since its job isn't to look nice but to shoot.

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I'm not sure they issue those. I don't remember any LE agency still using FMJ. I think it's just their FMJ sold under the Ranger brand.

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Then there's the old saw, "remember whatever you're issued, came from the lowest bidder."

What does shiny ammo have to do with lowest bidder and why would you want to pay for shiny ammo?

Police departments don't bid.

Trust me....you want the lowest bidder. Many companies treat the gov as a never ending cash cow. It's not "who can make it cheaper". Instead it "who can make it cheapest to our specs" depending on the product/service there is more than just the just the product profit that goes into the final price. You would be surprised what some companies decide is mandatory when the government is the customer.

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The only difference that I have ever noticed between the 50 rd. LE ammunition and the 20 rd. boutique ammunition is that the per round cost is about double for the 20 rd. boxes. Rebadge the ammo with some sort of "Self Defense" title and the average pistol owner will believe it's much better for self defense and worth the cost.

If anything, I'd say the 20-round boutique ammo has had more appearance enhancing time spent on it. Although I wanted a 50 round cardboard box of Federal 9mm HST, I couldn't find it anywhere and had to settle for a 20-round box that was shiny fron head to toe and came in a clear plastic jeweled box to show off that shine. It was about the same cost as what I knew the 50-round plain vanilla box was purported to be.

It's a great round, but the "showmanship" cost me a lot more than I wanted to pay. Personal self defense is big, big business, and salesmanship is just part of the deal.

Those little 20 round boxes you commonly see on the shelves of retailers. Essentially the same round in a pretty box, but with more attention given to cosmetics.

I was just trying to figure out if these 50 round boxes you find on the wholesale market were cancelled LE agency orders or factory seconds. Upon closer examination of the rounds, they seemed to go a little heavy with the case mouth and primer sealant, which might explain the appearance.

There's one round where the bullet skiving is clearly off, though. I'll have to snap a photo of it when time permits. The box didn't have any "For range and target use only" warnings on it, however, so I doubt this was "rejected" ammo.

Same ammo. Repackaged for consumers at a higher price

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Ballistics, not cosmetics, is what really matters in self-defense rounds and thus all self-defense rounds should be checked for performance on an adequate sampling basis. Even if shiny jackets and cases were guaranteed in the commercial 20 rounds/box packages, the extra cost just for such cosmetics seems unjustifiable.

Of course not--the vendor's bid.

And the bean counters, whether comptrollers on department staff, or state/county/whatever purchasing/contracting make a pick from the offers, with or without taking recommendations from the end users.

Precisely why I tend to purchase all my defensive ammo in the 50-count LE boxes, if at all possible. There's really no point in overpaying for a fancy box with shinier cartridges inside.

Still doesn't explain the cosmetics of secondary market LE ammo though, or whether it's actual cancelled orders or seconds. It's probably a question only an industry insider can answer.

I'm willing to just accept what is at this point.

I don't pay enough attention to my bullets . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I try not to overthink it either, FWIW.

Smeared sealant = No big deal.

Wonky OALs/Malformed Bullets/Inconsistent Charge Weights = VERY big deal, when present.

Unfortunately, what I had wasn't just smeared sealant on the base, it was sticky tar-like globules of sealant. Maybe it would have been vaporized harmlessly when the cartridge was fired, but I wasn't taking any chances of having it gum up my firing pin channel. So some tedious cartridge-scraping followed. I shoot 10-12,000 rounds per year, and I've used many different brands, including some with sloppy, smeared sealant, but I've never seen anything like those Rangers.

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What, me worry?

That sounds exactly like a contract batch that was rejected for
the cosmetic flaws you noticed. Federal (or whoever) already packed and boxed them, and they're (presumably) *safe*, so the most economical way to dispose of them is in their original boxes/cases, to the odd-lot wholesale market, who then retail them at "bargain blow-out pricing!"

I think I've seen what you're describing before. Messy stuff, that. Might be an asphalt sealer.

Oh, don't say that. It wasn't advertised as such, and I've obsessed too much over this stuff as it is. I don't wanna think about the possibility that my 100 rounds are going to have inconsistent powder charges.

There is always a possibility of inconsistent powder charges, no matter how the rounds appear, or whether they came from 20 or 50 round boxes. That's why checking and sample testing of rounds intended for self-defense is a good idea; a scale, calipers, and a chronograph will likely provide sufficient information about the adequacy of chosen self-defense rounds.

The specifications for LE contract may be higher than the
normal corporate specs (for general retail production). The
bigger the agency, the more likely they'll have more stringent
and sophisticated criteria for acceptance.

Take a look at the State of Alabama's Contract Notice of Award for 2013-2016. The successful bidders--Gulf States Distributors, and Precision Delta--are listed on Page 6.

Page 5 has some boilerplate requirements for all ammo, including " ALL CARTRIDGES MUST HAVE 100% SEALANT. PRIMER SENSITIVITY BASED UPON
SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION MANUFACTURERS INDUSTRY STANDARD DROP TEST OF A
TWO OUNCE BALL AND 70 GRAIN PIN SHOULD SHOW AN AVERAGE HEIGHT OF FIRE
PLUS FIVE STANDARD DEVIATIONS LESS THAN 11 INCHES, & AN AVERAGE HEIGHT
OF FIRE MINUS TWO STANDARD DEVIATION GREATER THAN 2 INCHES."

Then you get into the specific rounds. Most specify a muzzle velocity, with a +/- 50 fps requirement:

4012628 00039 680-04-076445 219.00000 630803427-00 NET
CS GULF STATES DISTRIBUTORS INC
AMMUNITION, SMALL ARMS, 9MM, 115 GRAIN,
JACKETED HOLLOW POINT +P+ VELOCITY,
MUZZLE VELOCITY 1300 FPS (+/- 50 FPS)

BRAND: FEDERAL
MODEL: 9BPLE
1000 RNDS/CASE

They have other 'newer' designs on the list too, but I thought it was interesting that 9BPLE showed up on a contemporary contract,
and still specified 1300 fps.


http://purchasing.alabama.gov/contracts/t208.txt

So Alabama might reject a lot furnished under the
contract, based on failure to meet the specified
primer sensitivity test, of for being over
50 fps from specified velocity (and, probably for
having oozing globs of bullet sealant, though that's
not specifically called out in the contract)--conditions
that might have no effect for use by your or I. At that
point, the vendor has a bunch of ammo they need to do
something with. I'd guess that's how we see at least
some of the 'LE package' ammo showing up at places
like SGammo and TargetsportsUSA.

I'd further speculate that no ammo identified as dangerous to fire (eg excessively overpressure, or defective brass prone to failure) would be intentionally released to reseller channels.

I've bought ammo in this category. I'm a fan of 'scratch and dent' bargains, in general. I'd say wipe off whatever sealant you need to ensure feeding, and enjoy the great deal!

Lots of agency contract ammo comes in less "decorative" boxes. FBI agent lives in the town I work in. He showed us the new Gold Dot G2 147 grain 9mm with polymer filled hollow point Gmen are using now. No thrills white box with minimum writing on it. You google the ammo and it shows black boxes with gold lettering. Cost savings for bulk ammo. Federal did it for their 9BLE ammo and I remeber seeing over run 50 round boxes of hyrda shock 9mm in plain jane white boxes too.