**** doesn't expand!

I'm getting a 360j as my backup to my Glocks so right now I'm looking at all options for self defense ammo and all I can seem to find is video after video of ammo tests that flat out don't expand in the typical 4 layers of denim and gel.

Even the Buffalo Bore 158gr semi wadcutters didn't expand reliably.

So I think the one thing I understand is the problem here is velocity, or lack of.

So IMO +P is a must and go with the hottest rounds you can find in .38 special. Would anyone not agree with this?

Oh and I know a ton of people like the 135gr Gold Dot short barrel, but if you can't find the stuff to buy it, it doesn't do you much good.

+1 on 135gr Gold Dot short barrel...

There are standard 38 special loads out there that will expand.

However they will not look as impressive as the hotter +P expansions......
and most will feel under gunned with standard ammo with all the hype on more is better.

Expansion is nice but..........
hitting deep vital organs is what it is all about.
A Federal 148gr target load will go through 18" of gel.

Knowing what your load will do is key.
It may not need to expand, to be able to stop a threat.

As already said the 148gr target load with it's full wad cutter profile is surprisingly effective. Low recoil and muzzle flash is a plus.

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Stay safe people!

Groo here
If you can find it, get the Federal Nyclad HP.
They will open up in snub's

...the ammunition used against the most dangerous game in the world doesn't expand...yet with PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT...will stop a charging elephant...rhino...hippo...cape buffalo...etc...bullets used are long and heavy for the given caliber resulting in high sectional density...and very resistant to any kind of deformation...SHOT PLACEMENT and PENETRATION...are the keys to not getting killed...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

+p would work in longer barrels. Otherwise it's powder that doesn't get burned.

What you want to look for is ammo made specifically for short barrels

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Here is a little test I performed a few years ago.

First, I made 16 "targets". Front and back of each target was 3/4"
plywood (representing sternum on front and spine on back.)
On the front of each target I placed a layer of 7 oz. leather, a layer of
denim, and 2 layers of cotton, representing skin and clothing. From
the front 3/4" plywood to the back 3/4" plywood, a distance of 12", I
filled with a block of tightly compressed sponge rubber (from cutting
up an old matress.

Then I gathered up some test ammo: Remington .357 Magnum 125-Gr.
Golden Saber and Winchester Ranger .38 Sp. 110-Gr. +P+. I shot these
two from my S&W Model 60, because Winchester warns against using
their Ranger in an aluminum frame. The following 14 were all fired from
my S&W Model 642. (1 & 7/8" barrel).

The 14 remaining loads were: 3 - 158-Gr. FBI Loads from Winchester,
Remington, and Federal. Three from Corbon 110-Gr. JHP +P,
100-Gr. Pow-R-Ball +P, and DPX 110-Gr. +P. Winchester's Bonded PDX
130-Gr. JHP +P, and their 130-Gr. SXT. Federal's 120-Gr. Hydra-Shok +P,
Hornady's 110-Gr. FTX +P, Remington's 125-Gr. Golden Saber +P,
Speers 135-Gr. Gold Dot +P. Ultra-Max 148-Gr. Hollow Base Wadcutter,
and another 148-Gr. wadcutter reversed to form a hollow point from a
local re-loader.

I went out to the desert and set up my targets. Then I shot the first
two with the Model 60 .357 and the remaining 14 with the Model 642.
I shot from a range of 3 feet. Even I was able to place all the shots
dead center in the 4" square patch on the front of each target.

I was a little bit surprised to see all 16 loads went clean through the
target and kicked up dust 40 to 50 feet down range, so I was not able
to recover any bullets to judge expansion. But looking at the "exit
wounds" they were all circular about 1 & 1/2" in diameter. Some a
little more jagged than others. The two wadcutters formed the nastiest
looking "exit wounds". I have to believe they all expanded somewhat
to make the size exit wounds that they did.

One thing for sure. I would not want to be hit with any of them.

I prefer to do my own testing as opposed to tests performed and
reported on by others. As an instructor, when asked, I often suggest
.38 Spl. for a carry gun. The next question is often "is a .38 powerful
enough"? This test fortified my belief of something I already knew.
Yes, .38 Spl. is definately powerful enough If you do your part.

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In Omnia Paratus

Expansion is overrated.

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I've still got it made.

Accuracy is NOT overrated .
My grandfather explained it like this " Boy, it don't much matter what you shoot them with....where you put that bullet is what matter's the most "
I was asking him about his hunting wild hogs with a single shot 22 LR....He said put that bullet through the ear hole and into the brain , that old man got a hog every year with one shot.
Gary

Your grandfather was absolutely correct. Any of those 16 (above) that
I tested will do the job if the bullet is put where it matters most.
Placement! Placement! Placement!

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In Omnia Paratus

Both correct.

The real reason you want your self defense bullets to expand is to cause them, hopefully, to stop inside your target, and not reach a bystander or a neighbor or a family member in the next room.

Just my opinion.

The problem with pistols is LACK of penetration. Should you actually hit the assailant - a big if - you should be happy that your round actually penetrated the perp.

Pistol rounds are lousy man stoppers. Pistol rounds that have traveled through another human are ever worse man stoppers.

As a non LEO or military, if you are forced to shoot someone, it will be at very close range. You will not be able to extend your arms and use your sights. You will instinct shoot center mass. Bullet placement is a myth. Accuracy is a myth.

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I've still got it made.

If you need to extend your arms to hit your target ,you should not carry a gun!!!!!!!!
The gang banger's have NO training and shoot "Wrong" and get hits all the time [ see Chicago]
Bullet placement is not a myth, unless you are talking about
hitting his shirt button.
As you say , a real world fight is measured in feet.
You will hit almost every time with a knife [ much deadlier than a gun]
If you treat your gun like a knife [ or a fist] you will hit and where you want.
It is only when you get outside arms length that misses happen
[ the longer he range the easier to miss] that is why we are taught
to extend [ you hit better than BG ] or close [ to insure hits]
Its a Zin thing once trained You miss not your body. [ we don't WANT
to hurt some one]
Point shoulder [Point at target no sights] at 5 yds on an 8 1/2 x 11 in
size target is easy [even at speed] and a clay bird target after a few hours
training[ see Grant Cunningham schooling]

Luckily, I have 125, 125 +P and 158+P Nyclads and I loved these as my carry rounds. Great bullet, especially the 158 LSWCHP in that beautiful blue wax! If I get another 442/642, that is what is going in them..

IN the June 2016 Handloader Magazine, ther is a v ery good article on .38 Special performance. One thing stated is that you need to have about 800 fps muzzle velocity for modern JHP rounds to expand reliably. 850 is better. Their results seem to verify that. If/when I get a short barrel gun, it will be a 2 1/2-3 in., used with good short-barrel factory/reloaded rounds, which I know will also do well in my 4" revolver.

The Speer 135 grain +P short barrel GDHP IS around and available - although sometimes it takes a little extra effort to find a source. It has proven to expand reliably in Gel Blocks and has been reported to perform quite well in actual shootings.

The BB 158 grain +P LSWCHP-GC has also been proven to expand although maybe not quite to the same extent as the GDHP's have. In exchange for a little less or reliable expansion you get more than 60% more foot pounds of energy out of a 2" barrel gun - that's NOT a minor difference! (220 ft. lbs vs 360 from the BB load). The BB load also gives better penetration (at least in comparisons on Gel Blocks and denim tests). Either load is a great pick and depending on your ability, sensitivity to recoil and mind set - I think these two loadings are at the top of the list. I would suggest trying both and see which one you prefer. Again, the Gold Dot's are out there but a little extra effort is sometimes required to find them.

While I do agree that .38 special is easily powerful enough to give the kind of results you obtained in your test, I feel your experimental "targets" have a major flaw. There is no fluid in your testing equipment.

I feel fluid, which much of the human body center mass consists of, would at least partially open many of the newer hollow points the ammo makers are coming out with--even at .38 special and especially +P velocities. Thus, at .38 special speeds, that projectile may become neither fish nor fowl--its partial opening in the fluid will prevent it from reaching necessary depth to stop the fight.

If I was to trust my life to a .38 special, I would rather use a bullet that I know will penetrate deeply. I think at those velocities a hollow point COULD cause big penetration problems. I would not use a round nose widowmaker bullet for my carry rounds, but I would buy as many of them as I could afford to practice with until I could consistently put every round in a five inch circle at three paces. WITH EITHER HAND. For carry it would be either a wadcutter or semi wadcutter.

I'm honestly simply thinking about doing a 9mm conversion on my .38 special J frame...

135 speer gold and 158 grain all lead hollowpoint s are great

As I re-read this thread I confess that my first response was really only half of a response. First, because I daily carry a snubbie .38 Special and I load the one I carry most with full metal jacket semi-wadcutters. The others that I carry here and there either have FMJSWs as well or they have jacketed, hollow point SWCs. I don't feel under gunned with this ammunition and for the most part, especially with the FMJ rounds, expansion is not uppermost in my mind. Up close and personal self defense situations, which is all I ever really expect to encounter if I encounter such a situation at all, can and will be resolved by this ammunition. All the technical tests and jargon that you can muster won't be there when the stuff hits the fan. Just my ability to put bullets into someone trying to kill me and I can do that effectively with the equipment I carry and I expect it to work. It will work. That satisfies me in this context.

Carry a .44 special like the Charter Arms and you don't have to worry about expansion or over penetration.

How many bad guys out there are walking around with 4 pair of jeans across their chest?

We are not the FBI and should only use their tests as a guide. There are plenty if good bullets out there loaded in quality ammo. Find the one that you shoot well and is most accurate in your gun and go with it. IMO of course...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

If you don't have Nyclads, get a coated cast hollow point semi wadcutter. It's what the makers of Nyclad envisioned far before its time. What I'd like to know is how hard the lead in Nyclads is. I have a few old Nyclads. Maybe I'll sacrifice one and find out.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I favor Speer 135 grain Short Barrel Gold Dots for snubs. In a test yesterday I clocked a string at 957 fps out of a J frame. Tonight I looked up the Speer site and their Short Barrel bullets expand well at about 850-870 fps. So I can tone down the loads about 100 fps.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

In fact, I don't get several things being said on this thread. If you are going to stop somebody do you hit them in the shoulder, side or arm or in the center of mass. That it bullet placement and it does count for something.

And yeah, most encounters happen at very close range but add any range at all and a trigger jerk could send the bullet to the side. These wounds can kill, but not fast enough to prevent swift retribution.

As far as being able to shoot from different angles, yeah, look at FBI training in the old days. They crouched and shot without sighting.

I use pistols for SD because I can't carry a rifle that has superior stopping power. So, I try to get the best performance I can out of puny handguns because it's what I'm stuck with. This performance includes adequate penetration w/o overpenetration and expansion is a plus because it makes a larger wound and has an increased chance of cutting through something vital. Tests and a lot of dead people show that handguns can and do stop threats fairly reliably.

Oh, one thing I do to increase my chances are not to fire just one shot at any target and don't count on the fact that the one bullet will perform and hit a vital area

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

A ammo supplier to my dept. and personal friend gave me some Sig Sauer V Crown 125 gr. JHP + P to try in my model 60 snub. Looking at some of independent testing results it seems pretty good. Around 900 FPS, however, I will know more when the gelatin, heavy jacket, and H20 buckets come into play right after Christmas. I'll post the results when the tests are done.

Perhaps someone on the forum has some more information on the Sig .38sp. ammo. I currently use the Speer 135gr.+P

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Sierra 255
Ret. LEO/ NRA-LIFE

Some people that don't believe that handguns are ineffective.

Lee Harvey Oswald by a snub Colt from Jack Ruby

Davis Tutt by a .36 Colt Navy by Wild Bill Hickock

Mohandas Gandhi by a 9mm fired by Nathuram Godse

Gianni Versace by Andrew Cunanan with a Taurus .40 S&W

William McKinley by Leon Czolgosz with .32 caliber Iver Johnson

Archduke Franz Ferdinand and wife Sophie by Gavrilo Princip with an FN model 1910 in .380 ACP. *There were several earlier attempts with bombs that day that failed)

Huey Long by Dr. Carl Weiss with a .32 caliber Iver Johnson. (There is some speculation that Long was shot by his own bodyguards while trying to stop Weiss.

John Lennon by Mark David Chapman with a .38 caliber Charter Arms

Wild Bill Hickok by Jack McCall with a Sharps Improved .45 Caliber

Harvey Milk by Dan White with an S&W model 36 Chiefs Special

Alexander Hamilton by Aaron Burr with a Wogdon Dueling Pistol

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Counting on your ammo to expand to do its job is dangerous. Its nice if it works, but you shouldn't count on it.

Remington has a SJHP 125 +P that expands nicely from my M&P340.

I carry old 200 grain "Super Police" loads in my 1949 Colt Detective Special. It just seems like a good match.

Also, if I take a shot at somebody then change my mind I can trot after the bullet and knock it down before it hits anything.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I don't understand using FBI results or recommendations. They change bullets and calibers right often. Larry

I don't know what 38 ammo you're using but most everything out there today, and I'm talking about modern SD ammo, has been designed/engineered to expand from a snub. So if you're not sure just get a box of Hornady Critical Defense, the ones with the red polymer tip.

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Ephesians 6 (Armor of God)

Lots of em here in winter.

They don't penetrate well

Or perhaps a heavy leather coat in winter?

Well carhaarts and the like are common then add in the chest of the bibs then a heavy sweatshirt and maybe long John's plus possibly the round hitting through a pocket....all that adds up to 4 layers or more quick

Look up the 1986 Miami FBI shootout. Before this, the prevailing belief was that velocity kills and 110gr .357s and 115gr 9mm Silvertips were deathrays. Instant mushrooming and fragmenting were considered highly desirable. Penetration? Meh...it was all about "stopping power", whatever that actually means.

In short, the perps were not stopped by "flesh wounds" and were only stopped with CNS hits to the spine that had to penetrate through the torso. After this, the FBI made ensuring penetration to the spine on a frontal shot a very high priority. I can't disagree! Preferred bullets became heavier.

Luckygunner has awesome tests on popular defensive loads. In general, heavier bullets for the caliber do better and are more consistent, but it's not an absolute.

Sometimes here it freezes and people wear heavier clothes, but most of the years you can count on a Tee shirt.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I think that having a gunfight at some distance and in the cover of the car, the agents 'winged' both perps but in order to reliably deliver a killing shot they needed a rifle or carbine. The very motivated perp with the AR 15 tore the agents up at the same distance with more precise shots. Also one perp was knocked out for much of the battle but got up and was able to maneuver the car enough to give the agents more trouble. To me, pistols are for close in and portability but they lose effectiveness with some range and cover.

I can shoot my 686 pretty good at distance if I aim carefully while standing like a statue, but shooting my third gen while popping up and from the side with quick aim and pull, my score falls off FAST. Add somebody shooting at me with an AR-15 and it would get worse even faster.

I use this point to say that it didn't matter if the agents had 1911s, 10mms and S&W 500s. They needed some RIFLES. The agents that had rifles didn't arrive at the scene until too late.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

And what came out of that conclusion by the FBI, that
the 9mm was inadequate?

The FBI testing protocol.

The FBI selection of the 10mm.

The FBI decision the 10mm needed to be downloaded, for average agent to handle (which triggered the development of the .40 S&W by S&W and Winchester, but that's another story).

The FBI settles on .40 S&W.

Now, the FBI has decided to move to...9mm.

American Rifleman | Keefe Report: FBI Selects New Service Pistol

Short barrels typically result in a loss in velocity and unless you are running pressures in the Rifle range there isn't a lot that can be done about it.

Good news is that most folks don't enjoy getting shot and as a result most self defense shootings end with only 2-3 rounds fired. It's also pretty typical that the person who is shot first will attempt to leave the area as quickly as they are capable of. So, train to get in the first shot and if you have one of those rare thugs who enjoys being shot place all of the followups in his head.

Yeah, I know, a bit of a smart aleck response. However there really isn't any solution to the basic physics involved. If you insist on relying on a low pressure caliber in a short barreled handgun you have to expect that there is a real potential that it may not be powerful enough for a "one shot stop". BTW, study the statistics of a "one stop shot" and you'll come to conclude that is mostly wishful thinking for a handgun of any caliber.

With so many cases with drugs involved, a perp is often too out of their head and pumped up to know that they are even shot.

Also, I don't believe in the reliability of a one-shot stop, so I plan on pulling the trigger more than once. Maybe until it goes 'click click click'

Carrying a gun doesn't mean that you will be able to use it effectively in any situation. It's just a CHANCE to fight back.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Anyone expecting optimum performance from any ammo fired from a 2" barreled revolver can expect nothing but disappointment.

Read another gun magazine, maybe a few more forum posts, and you will surely become another ballistics expert. Then the fundamentals of physics will no longer apply and your 1-7/8" J-frame will drop charging bull elephants with no more than a flesh wound.

It is what it is. Don't expect anything else.

Knowing this, I want to get the best possible performance I can out of a 1 7/8" barrel, since I can only carry concealed. Now my HD guns have somewhat longer barrels.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Except that there are rounds that do perform optimally from a short barrel

All I know is, when I carry my Detective Special, I have no worry that those 6 rounds will fail me.

38spl will get the job done.

I shoot at a paper target that is backed by 2+ feet of sand. I have yet to see any 38 spl hollow point not expand shot from even a snubby. Flat nose wad cutters might mushroom a bit but not always. Hollow point wad cutters usually expand good. Lead round nose .22lr most always mushroom almost flat. Almost all handgun ammo of any caliber only penetrates the sand at a depth of 8" or less, usually less.
Plated round nose could almost always with a little polishing be reloaded into another casing to be shot again. That is true for most any caliber.

From my experience a 38 or 357 hollow point shot out of a snub from 10 yards will expand very well. I can't say the human body wouldn't have similar results.