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  #51  
Old 11-26-2016, 07:37 PM
ShelbyV8 ShelbyV8 is offline
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Mass shooters go for gun free zones (soft targets). Churches are considered as such. We did have an incident dealing with an individual suffering from PTSD. He showed up 3 times during Sunday Service, each time his actions escalated. He made it all the way through the sanctuary and sat down by the singers on stage. We reevaluated our procedures and secured all entrances except main entrance and set up communication between parking lot, Children's Church, and main sanctuary. On Friday of that week, the individual rammed his vehicle into a gasoline tanker. He lost his life and did several millions in damage.

Last edited by ShelbyV8; 11-26-2016 at 07:39 PM.
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  #52  
Old 11-26-2016, 08:22 PM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
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There is a training drill named The Paris Drill. It is to simulate in distance, target type, and time, the Isis Paris attack. You have 3 six inch falling plates randomly spaced from the shooter at 15 yards. You draw from concealment and shoot the 3 heads in 5 seconds. We have some good men here. They can do this without fail, BUT, when those 3 heads are among 20 more heads, there are always casualties amongst the 20. Nobody has cleaned it yet, but we are trying. 45 feet is a random distance chosen to mimic the disco dance floor. The 3 heads are used because the terrorist had body armour. You start from concealment because that's the way we have to carry. You have 5 seconds to do the job before they figure out where you are and turn full attention to you. Wherever this comes to my group, they will be ready. Whether at the Red Lobster or the 4th Baptist Church.
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  #53  
Old 11-26-2016, 09:31 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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First off, forget the HBWC backwards or any other handloaded ammo. You're getting into bad juju from both the forensic and liability standpoints. Accuracy can also be problematic.

Now about headshots. I've had the opportunity to observe the aftermath of a couple with handguns. The head is a lousy target. It's heavily protected and extremely mobile. Besides which, in general, if you're shooting at someone's head, as noted above, there's going to be a lot of other heads in close proximity. It may be the only target, but may not be your best option to resolve the issue. There are other ways to defeat body armor, but I'm not going into them on an open forum.
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  #54  
Old 11-26-2016, 09:49 PM
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Regarding headshots in the context of this thread, I pretty much agree with these two perspectives...

Gabe Suarez... GABE SUAREZ BLOG - KEEP CALM - AND SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE

Bob Stasch...

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  #55  
Old 11-26-2016, 10:03 PM
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I'd want a 45 1911 for this application.

Accurate at the relatively long ranges that may be involved.

Not over penetrative.
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  #56  
Old 12-07-2016, 10:26 PM
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Before I reply, let me give you my experience. I'm a retired Police Sgt. that was FBI trained and certified firearms instructor, SWAT, and sniper. Over penetration was always a concern for me and I'm sure for most LEOs. Like one person said, shot placement is very important. So practice as much as possible. I'm in agreement that slow big bore rounds are the way to go. The reverse hollow base WC was a trick that was used a long time ago and I still believe in it today, especially in an environment that you described. I would stay away from fragmenting bullets. In church I carry a .45acp, or a .44 sp, or an S&W model 25 in .45 Colt. They are all slow moving big bore rounds that take some of the concern off about over penetration. They are carried in an iwb under my jacket. I would stay far away from + P ammo for fear of over penetration.
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  #57  
Old 12-08-2016, 01:10 AM
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When I was active, we tested several frangible cartridges for their effects on feral hog carcasses. This was for use inside the courthouse and more specifically inside the district court room.

The Glasner's won, hands down. Even draping a heavy coat over the rib area we got consistent penetration thru the ribs with pellets embedded in the off side. Very few penetrations by either the pellets or the "case".

Ricochets off of tile floors, terrazzo floors, and marble walls did happen but the secondary impacts were quite scattered and barely decernable. We did this outdoors at the range with scraps and pieces we got from area craftsmen and builders

They were used in .40 S&W and 45acp until I left the SO.
They should be tested in the weapon of choice as the point of impact may be inconsistent with conventional loads due to the far greater muzzle velocity of the lighter Glasner projectile.

FWIW....I have a cousin who is a former transplant surgeon and is now a vascular surgeon. He told me the during his residencies at Dallas Parkland ER and at Charity Hospital ER in New Orleans he saw several patients with wounds he could later verify were made by Glasners, impacts in the boiler room were 100% fatal, too many bleeders... wounds to the limbs could be very ugly as well.

They are not suitable for general street use IMHO but I would trust them in an interior short range environment (100 ft. or so)

Last edited by ol' geeser; 12-08-2016 at 01:17 AM.
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  #58  
Old 12-11-2016, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj View Post
Hi:
I am a new member of a church security unit.
Several members are retired LEO.
The main purpose is security in the main sanctuary. The building is one story.
The sanctuary is approx. 75 feet from main door to pulpit and approx. 75 feet wide.
The sanctuary is normally full on Sunday mornings.

To my mind, over penetration is a main concern in the event that an active shooter has to be dealt with.

A large slow moving handgun bullet is what I am thinking ?

Consideration :
1. .38 spl hollow base wad cutter bullet reversed with hollow base outward
2. .38 spl fragmentation round
3. .44 spl HP
4. .45 acp 185 gr HP

Opinions ??

Thanks
Jimmy
Modern hollow points are engineered to expand and stop within the body of one that is shot center mass by it .. there isn't any need to use anything else .. I would feel as comfortable shooting my 9mm as my 40 S&W ammo or my .380 acp for ammo for all three pistol will stop within a persons body ..

reversing a bullet is asking for added liabilities if you were to miss or had a pass through with it .. as its not a normal bullet formation that can be bought .. I would stay away from hand loads and only use what your police force uses if possible .. if not any commercially available HP ammunition staying away from +P and +P+ loads !!

Last edited by Whitwabit; 12-11-2016 at 08:55 PM.
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  #59  
Old 12-14-2016, 01:37 PM
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Just my opinion here.

9mm pistols with Federal 9BPLE ammo. Proven effective and less prone to riccochet. Churches have lots of concrete and marble.

Stay away from any of the solid copper ammo as they have a high potential for riccochet. Also, the heavier bonded just ammo will more likely riccochet.
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  #60  
Old 12-14-2016, 02:51 PM
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James Caldwell, the Continental Army chaplain recommends “Give ‘em Watts"
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  #61  
Old 01-02-2017, 08:53 PM
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Something I think that is as important as the weapon and caliber to carry which should be what your most accurate with .. is the placement of the security staff .. next to any entrance and several in the middle of the seating to be able to shoot outwardly also an AR in a elevated position with red dot might also be a viable option ..

also a written statement telling the congregation what they should do if a shooting incident does happen .. and what exit they should use if sitting in certain locations within the room .. you don't want people running into a security member causing his shot to be less then accurate and the results being an innocent person being shot ..
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  #62  
Old 01-02-2017, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregintenn View Post
Not a lot of gun play where we attend church.
As a long-lapsed Catholic who is going straight to Hell for certain, it was a rare sight indeed to see me attending a large Catholic wedding this past week officiated by no less that 3 priests. The church was huge and very crowded and the wedding was wonderful, but I couldn't help but think how easy it would be for one or more terrorists to attack the place and kill every last person inside. One would hope & pray there was some sort of security on duty but it sure didn't look like there was.

It looked like an ideal "soft" target for terrorism... a very scary thought. In this day and age, God bless you people who are providing security for your respective places of worship.
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  #63  
Old 01-11-2017, 03:17 PM
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I'd be more concerned about missing altogetherthan over penetration. if it does over penetrate it won't have much energy left once it goes out the bad guy
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  #64  
Old 01-11-2017, 03:19 PM
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I would say full-size m@p 9 with 147 grain HST and an AR 15 handy
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  #65  
Old 01-11-2017, 04:36 PM
apollo99 apollo99 is offline
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My first bullet of choice would be 38 special 158 grain SWC. The only problem is the lack of high capacity in revolvers. My choice of weapons, a Glock, so intermingling the two, I would be looking at a Glock 19, 9mm with 147 grain jacketed hollow points. I am not a Glock groupie, and I don't regularly shoot 9mm. I do feel that if I needed to be armed in a security situation, the G19 , 9mm would fit the bill. The Glock is simple and proven, the 9mm has come a long was in the last few years.
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  #66  
Old 01-11-2017, 05:14 PM
Cariboo Canuck Cariboo Canuck is offline
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Just out of curiosity, why is the concern regarding ammo for use in a church any different than in any other public venue?

The building is going to be filled with screaming, panicked people, elderly, infirm, young, etc., all of them intent on getting out of range of a shooter.
You could say the same of a school, theatre, mall or any other public venue.

Wanna-be mass shooters tend to target places known as "gun free zones" as they are less likely to be confronted by someone who can shoot back.
Signs at the entrance of the sanctuary indicating that members of the congregation are trained and armed might work as a deterrent, making it less likely that a shooter would enter.

Posting armed security people in the parking lot area would also lessen the chances of an armed intruder entering the building.

Last edited by Cariboo Canuck; 01-11-2017 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 01-16-2017, 10:31 PM
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WHATEVER you may carry, Think and rehearse several likely scenarios through in advance, In the likely location, if possible, Next: practice, practice, practice with your carry gun/ammo.

Then offer frequent and sincere prayers that it will never come to the ultimate test, but if it does, that your skills will be equal to the task!
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Old 01-17-2017, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
jimmyj wrote:
Hi:
I am a new member of a church security unit.
Several members are retired LEO.
The main purpose is security in the main sanctuary. The building is one story.
The sanctuary is approx. 75 feet from main door to pulpit and approx. 75 feet wide.
The sanctuary is normally full on Sunday mornings.

To my mind, over penetration is a main concern in the event that an active shooter has to be dealt with.

A large slow moving handgun bullet is what I am thinking ?
I led the group that developed the security team procedures adopted by a number of large churches in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area starting in the late-1990's.

There's not enough room in one of these posts to go over three years worth of work and training, but suffice it to say that among the situations the security team was expected to deal with, an active shooter was considered the least likely. Trespassing, Property Crime, Simple Assault and Ensuring that no adult was left alone with a child were the biggest concerns and they were predomoinately what was trained for.

With respect to an Active Shooter situation, following a detailed analysis of the likely threats as well as the capabilities of the security team members that were potentially armed (all were required to be currently serving LEOs and thus up to date on their training) we concluded it would be irresponsible to position armed guards within a crowded sancturary where the backdrop to any shot was another member of the congregation.

Instead, we opted for a system that created three security perimeters; one outside the building using unarmed observers, a second around the children's area and another within the building but outside of the sanctuary. This third perimeter did allow for the guards to be armed (provided the church's leadership agreed - although few did).

I would recommend your church's leadership check with their liability insurance company about whether or not posting armed guards within the sanctuary is permitted under the terms of the policy. I would also suggest that any armed security team members carry their own general liability insurance policy to help protect them in the event they injure or kill someone.
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Old 01-17-2017, 06:00 PM
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Default High quality...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid44 View Post
I didn't know the words "Taurus" and "high quality" could be used in the same sentence.
Sounds like contempt prior to investigation. Quality is as quality does-whatever the brand...
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  #70  
Old 01-17-2017, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
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I didn't know the words "Taurus" and "high quality" could be used in the same sentence.
Anyone have any Unguentine? I think I just got scorched.
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  #71  
Old 01-18-2017, 01:52 PM
Cariboo Canuck Cariboo Canuck is offline
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[QUOTE=hdwhit;139421441]I led the group that developed the security team procedures adopted by a number of large churches in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area starting in the late-1990's.

Instead, we opted for a system that created three security perimeters; one outside the building using unarmed observers, a second around the children's area and another within the building but outside of the sanctuary. This third perimeter did allow for the guards to be armed (provided the church's leadership agreed - although few did).QUOTE]

Good reasoning, particularly with regard to the "three security perimeters".

It's a little off topic, but related in an odd way ..... At the funeral of an RCMP Auxiliary member at our church, the entire watch showed up.

The Honour Guard in scarlets who carried the casket out were not armed, not even wearing holsters. The others were, including the plains clothes types who were CCW.
I was one of the few who noticed this and after the service, I spoke to the Watch Commander re: the wearing of sidearms in a church sanctuary by police.

He took umbrage to my remarks and said he'd like to discuss it with me in an "interview" at the Detachment after the internment. This never happened, but I wrote a letter to the NCO/IC cc'd the RCMP Complaints Commissioner and never got the courtesy of a reply.

In my letter, I asked what the reaction would have been had the RCMP worn sidearms into a Synagogue, Sikh or Buddhist temple. I suggested that it might have been better to have put their guns into the trunk of one vehicle, posted a sentry with radio (which they all carry) or remained in the ante room during the service.

I realize that it's a different situation in the US, but your post indicates that some churches or denominations might object to uninvited armed police in their church sanctuary.
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Old 01-18-2017, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty3030 View Post
Can't help it, keep thinking of this.


Dusty, are you recommending long sticks with metal thingies on the top?


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  #73  
Old 01-18-2017, 06:33 PM
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I think you ought to carry the same thing you did when you were still a LEO. I seem to remember you winning a lot of competition with that.
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Old 01-18-2017, 06:36 PM
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I know it is required now, but it saddens me that we must have armed people to protect our churches. I carry a .45, and that is what I recommend.
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Old 01-19-2017, 12:45 PM
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The Pope is protected by armed guards. You can google the Armory of the Swiss Guard where you will see all kinds of arms, old and current.
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Old 01-28-2017, 05:08 PM
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Believing that most of us are not retired or present LEO, or trained much in the latest self-defense tactics, and as much as we might love to, maybe not having the $$$ to attend the various "academies"; or, age having taken its toll, we are not as physically capable as we were; I'd say use what you can shoot the best, whether is be .22 LR, (Poodle shooter?).38 Special wadcutter, or .44 magnum "Do you feel lucky, punk?"

To paraphrase Foghorn Leghorn;
"PRACTICE with that round, I say Practice, boy!"

Don't dick around "trying" different stuff each week, and visualize yourself realistically in a likely scenario...NOT you standing there, yelling; "Take that, you cowardly criminal persons!",pumping 11 center-mass rounds from your J frame; (but, we can all dream, right?) but what you may do with extremely wet jockey shorts, possibly wounded, and/or with hysterical companion(s) and bystanders to deal with. Where's the exit? FEETS, save the body!
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Old 01-28-2017, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cariboo Canuck View Post
The Pope is protected by armed guards. You can google the Armory of the Swiss Guard where you will see all kinds of arms, old and current.
Something I learned in Switzerland; Don't NEVER mess with the Swiss Guards!
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Old 01-28-2017, 07:05 PM
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Default Hey, don't they.......

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Something I learned in Switzerland; Don't NEVER mess with the Swiss Guards!
Hey, don't they fend off attacks on the Vatican with those Halberds they march around with?
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Old 01-28-2017, 07:37 PM
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Default I think it very important........

How can anybody say that overpenetration in a crowded church is no big deal? If you can get a shot it's an almost certainty that other will be behind the perps.
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Old 01-28-2017, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
How can anybody say that overpenetration in a crowded church is no big deal? If you can get a shot it's an almost certainty that other will be behind the perps.

Over penetration in any crowded place is a big deal but it's a bigger deal when those people are your friends - or family.
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Old 01-28-2017, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj View Post
Hi:
I am a new member of a church security unit.
Several members are retired LEO.
The main purpose is security in the main sanctuary. The building is one story.
The sanctuary is approx. 75 feet from main door to pulpit and approx. 75 feet wide.
The sanctuary is normally full on Sunday mornings.

To my mind, over penetration is a main concern in the event that an active shooter has to be dealt with.

A large slow moving handgun bullet is what I am thinking ?

Consideration :
1. .38 spl hollow base wad cutter bullet reversed with hollow base outward
2. .38 spl fragmentation round
3. .44 spl HP
4. .45 acp 185 gr HP

Opinions ??

Thanks
Jimmy
First off, I applaud your church for being pro-active and not waiting for something bad to happen, good for them, and good for you for taking this responsibility on.
B). I think handgun choice and how you handle that gun is much more important than caliber choice. It looks like you are leaning toward a revolver, that's fine but six rounds isn't a lot when up against multiple threats or heavily armed threats wearing body armor. There's no such thing as one-shot-stopping-power from any handgun, the key is placement and follow-up shots. Of the choices above I would go with a good defensive 38+P, otherwise get yourself a good high capacity 9mm. 38 (even +P) are not known for over-penetration, 9mm can over-penetrate if you don't choose a good HP.

Last edited by hostler; 01-28-2017 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 01-28-2017, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
Hey, don't they fend off attacks on the Vatican with those Halberds they march around with?
Not entirely...UNDER those funny-looking uniforms, are carried Sig-Sauer or similar Swiss firearms. But, as a close in weapon, the Halberd ranks right up there with the African Assegai!
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:22 PM
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I didn't read all 5 pages so sorry if I'm repeating.

I would not use a HBWC turned upside down. It's been proven there is no advantage bad some disadvantages. The WC used in the correct orientation is not a bad idea though.

Please no frag bullets. A leather jacket will defeat them.

If you are going with the 45 ACP I would use a 230gr HP bullet, not a 185gr bullet. Big and slow has worked for over 100 years.

I pray you will never find out which is best.
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