Hey Guys, please read the following article. It pretty much states the 5.56 is basically a worthless round that is a poor shooting platform for stopping the bad guy. It sites many examples of soldiers in battle who had to shoot the bad guy 5 sometimes 6 times before they would go down. Maybe I should have went with .308 for SHTF but this article really concerns me.

How about 5.56 HP or SP? Would that make it close to a .308?


Articles: The Last 'Big Lie' of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq

That's because .224" FMJ only poke a tiny hole straight through. Switch to a SP in your AR and it's a complete different story.

Judging a round by its "stopping power" completely destroys any credibility you had in your first post.

Fmjs aren't ideal for unarmored flesh in any caliber

I used 5.56 in the military, "stopping power" only counts when you can place perfect shots under a high stress environment....because in essence...all a .223/556 is, is a really fast 22LR.

Though we could place perfect shots with our M4A1...none of us really cared for them...all our personal long rifles are AR10's...

...most of us felt, the AR15 platform is a good childs or womans gun...lol

Don't you own a couple dozen AR15 style rifles . . . ?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

It's an ammunition problem. 5.56 NATO really doesn't wound much unless the bullet yaws and breaks up in flesh.The M855 doesn't begin to yaw until after it has penetrated a body. It's even worse with a short barrel and reduced velocity. The old M183 would yaw faster and sometimes would actually yaw in a body. A 77gr OTM makes the AR15 a much more effective platform than either.

Since we're talking about killing and self defense and all at short range if you shoot someone with a 5.56 or a 7.62 NATO is really just a matter of personal preference as a center mass or cranial hit with either will generally cause the offending party to quit doing whatever it is they were doing that made you decide to shoot them in the first place.

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Straight shootin'
SWCA#2439

I'm confused isn't this the same round that has probably put a couple million people in the ground ??

The same round that lots of people are wanting to shoot animals with now, that are tougher than a humans.

Now that they are cheap to shoot about everyone I know has one.

If I had to shoot a human or larger animal and make it a drop shot .... for sure the .308 or 06 would be my choice.

No argument intended but it's a nasty little round.

Dan

Give me a technical definition of "stopping power". Don't tell me something your Daddy, or uncle, or Bubba told you. A scientific definition please.

My son has had two combat tours over the past 10 years. He carried an M4 and said that they really didn't want us to kill anybody The 5.56 is not and never will be a self defense round. As stated above by another poster, it's a 22 LR going really fast. Although, one must remember, a wounded enemy is much more trouble for the enemy than a dead enemy.

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Dr. B

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body – BGR

Some quotes from above article

“One looks like a grenade went off in there,” University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it’s explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to “distribute” inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to “dust” according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. “The liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor,” if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

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Just hanging with my dogs

My federal bonded 62gr jsp begs to differ.

Grisly! I get people telling me all the time oh .308 is way better you got a mouse gun. blah blah blah

NATO outlawed HP bullets ........only "Ball" type bullets can be used.

The M1 and M14 were good weapons but the military wanted more fire power. Enter the M-16, stage left.

Myth: NATO banned jhp

U.S. Army Wants Hollow-Point Ammo for New Pistol, Not for the M9 | Military.com

The laws of physics haven't changed in the past 12 years since this article was written, but your choice of ammunition and degree of practice/training may make a difference. Choose wisely.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

It's true. Plenty of times soldiers had to shoot 5 or 6 times to kill a bad guy. However, plenty of people have been shot just as much by bigger and badder rounds and lived to tell. There are also plenty of stories from the current war where bad guys took more than one shot from a 50BMG before they laid down and died.

HP is much better but 556 isn't exactly a wimp of a round

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

About 20 years ago there was arguing back and forth about 5.56 vs. 7.62. Clint Smith pretty well ended that by stating "the bullet has to do something when it gets there". I also had a friend whose son (Marine, sand box 2 tours) said that with a 7.62 you only have to shoot them once. Ball ammo of course.

Eb07;

That article is about the 9mm pistol not the M-16 rifle.

As of yet, combat troops can not use JHP until the 2018 bill passes.

Then maybe the JHP bullet might be used for the troops in battle, in the M9 pistol.

Still a myth. Nothing was signed. Just a guideline. Never had to follow by any treaty, law, or regulation.

Just a parroted myth like the 45 knocked people down or the soldiers used to throw Garand clips to simulate the ping

Since we are talking FMJ non expanding bullets here, how is it that a .224 caliber bullet requires several shots to stop a bad guy but a .308 bullet (at only .08" larger diameter) can stop with one shot? I realize the 308 bullet is heavier but penetration is not the issue. How does the additional .08" and several hundred fps less velocity make the 308 so much superior?

Jim

Some of the posters have discussed it, but the M193 and the newer M262 lack the steel penetrator core. Add to that that they are stable ballistically until they hit something or someone. The 193 and 262 will begin to turn, and one of 2 things happens. It proceeds through, but now it's not the 224 diameter, but the projectile length, that causes the wound, or if it still has enough momentum it will turn, then fracture at the cannelure. Now the 2 halves are still proceeding, sideways, through the target. That's why the Viets called it the "little gun that makes the big hole". The green tip 855 is much more stable, due to the 1/7 twist, and the steel core prevents it from fracturing, leading to knitting needle wounds and waiting for enough blood to leak out of a 1/4 hole to cause shock.

Depends on the range, ammunition, and most importantly shot placement.

You know...the basic mechanisms for any external ballistics.

This was an old issue long before the Vietnam War.

In fact, the US military justified the adoption of the high velocity (for the time) .30-40 Krag on the basis that the smaller bullet would tumble and inflict wounds as significant as the much larger .45-70.

The Brits actually researched the effect of bullets tumbling in battle rifles prior to WWI and they found that the effect was maximized at .276" at the 2600-2800 fps velocities of the day. Since they referenced land diameter not groove diameter, they were in fact talking about .280" / 7mm.

That drove their decision to go with .276 as the caliber for their new battle rifle, which was however never adopted with WWI looming on the horizon and then after the war was canceled given the millions of rounds of .303 in storage. However, the experiments with bullet tumbling further drove their intention to adopt the .280 British in the FN FAL and as the standard NATO round.

However, the powers that be in the US wanted to stay with a full power .30 caliber round, in part because we had lot of tooling for the .30-06. The Brits tried to compromise with the ..280/30 which used the same head size as the .30-06 and could have been made on existing tooling, but we stuck with the .7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Win - and forced the choice on the rest of NATO.

Then, to add insult to injury, within a few years we started developing the 5.56mm cartridge as we discovered the Brits were right as the full power 7.62 was a poor choice for full auto weapons.

In order to justify the adoption of the much smaller caliber, the military pointed out logistic advantages of the smaller round, but also dusted off the old "bullet tumbling" argument to show that the smaller 5.56mm round had sufficient lethality.

There were some problems with that however, and they only got worse over time.

First it was a bit misleading as the M80 ball ammo used in the M14 tumbled at reasonably short ranges as well.

Second, Eugene stoner used a Sierra designed bullet in the original .223 cartridge to achieve better retained velocity to pass a 300m penetration test, as well as to reduce stability and maximize the fragmentation and tumbling effects of the bullet at normal combat ranges.

However, when the military put the round in production they used a shorter Remington designed bullet that lost much more velocity. This created the pressure problems with the XM193 round as that lower BC bullet had to be driven faster to meet the penetration standards at 300m. The shorter bullet was also more stable and would not tumble at as long a range.

Third, the M16 was designed to use a 1/14" rifling twist which barely stabilized the 55 gr FMJ bullets used. In arctic testing it was not adequately stabilizing the bullet so a faster 1/12" twist was adopted, which again reduced the tumbling range.

Fourth, generally speaking, the shorter Remington designed bullet in the M193 ball round needs a velocity of about 2700 fps to fragment. This fragmentation effect was an added bonus over and above just tumbling. The original 20" M16 and M16A1 could generate that 2700 fps velocity out to a pretty credible 190-200 meters. However that range gets shorter as barrel length gets shorter.

Fifth, the adoption of the M855 round using the 62 gr SS109 projectile reduced the muzzle velocity in the 20" M16A2, which also shortened the fragmentation and tumbling ranges of the combination. That only got worse as the 14.7" M4 was adopted give it's substantially lower muzzle velocity. Worse, the 1-7 twist in the M16A2 was adopted to stabilize the much longer M856 tracer round, and was over kill for the M855 round - where 1-9 was sufficient. This over stabilization doesn't help.

The end result is that the original 190-200m fragmentation range for the M193 / M16A1 combination has decreased significantly to only 45-50 meters in the M4.

The round will still tumble without fragmenting down to about 2600 fps, but that only adds another 50m or so.

----

Barrel lengths and ranges that will still produce 2700 fps.

20” Barrel
M193 190-200m
M855 140-150m

16” Barrel
M193 140-150m
M855 90-95m

14.7” Barrel
M193 95-100m
M855 45-50m

11.5” Barrel
M193 40-45m
M855 12-15m

----

Soft point bullets on the other hand are generally regarded as a more reliable wounding mechanism due to greater penetration, so for law enforcement and civilian uses where they are allowed, they are a much better option when range is a factor as they are less dependent on a minimum velocity.

In that regard, I have no serious reservations about using an AR-15 with a good soft point bullet at any reasonable range.

However, given that self defense shooting also means very short ranges, I'm also not concerned about the velocity loss in 16" barrel, and in fact my go to carbine has an 11.5" barrel which only generates about 2750 fps at the muzzle. I'm also not concerned with using M193 ammo either for home defense as at social shooting distances it will fragment just fine.

I still side with Col. Cooper. Would not have one-or anything with direct impingement operating system in any caliber. The best all around Infantry rifle is the AK-47 7.62X39.

I believe it was the Haig Convention much before NATO was ever conceived. I also believe the United States never formally signed on to it and we only use FMJ bullets as a courtesy to our allies that did.

I certainly wouldn't want to be hit any where on my bod with
a 5.56 fmj round!

Thanks, but I'll stick with M193 ball out of a 16" barrel within a 100 meter engagement distance.



B & T Ammo Labs Fragmentation Experiment #1

The US Army invited me to a war once. Issued me a 22 caliber rifle to fight with. The enemy had 30 caliber. I am never going to war again with less than .308

Bullet construction and shot placement trumps everything. If you kill enough things with a variety of calibers you will come to the conclusion a bigger bullet is always more effective.

The military rifle caliber choice involves more than what is the most lethal caliber but factors like how well can you shoot it, recoil and follow up shots and how many rounds you can carry. Select fire whether its bursts or full auto are also a factor.

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Len

Never had any problems with the stopping power 5.56 ball ammo in 1970.
We carried and qualified with M-14's (7.62) in boot. In ITR and Staging Bn we were issued the M-16 A1's.
Got me home.
USMC 1969-73

....by making outrageous statements that are more opinion than fact. It makes me want to scan the article so I suppose the author wins in the publicity department.

Anyway, ball ammo is the culprit much more than the caliber. You get the same complaints with 9mm ball ammo. IMHO ball ammo stinks for stopping someone crazed and determined to attack you, but if I got hit with one round I'd stop what I was doing, fall down and yell, "I'm hit... MEDIC!"


PS I remember hearing that if you got shot in the shoulder with an M-16 the bullet would whizz around and could even come out of your foot. This was because the bullet 'tumbled'.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I found it amusing that the author complained about the early 'incredulous' field-reports from Vietnam then repeats "At 30 yards, I hit him with a blast of double ought buck. It picked him up off his feet and he didn't get up again." without comment.

One known issue that affects ball rounds is "fleet yaw". Bullets that strike perfectly perpendicular are slow to upset and fragment and may exit before this can take place. Bullets that strike at a significant angle of attack upset and fragment early. This results in inconsistent terminal effects depending on the rifle, ammunition, range, and shot placement.

Human beings taking several rounds to the torso and being able to continue fighting for a time is normal. It's just human physiology that unconsciousness due to blood loss can take 10-15 seconds even after a perfect hit to the heart and pulmonary arteries.

Missing when the shooter believes they hit, ignorance of the actual effects of bullets, and confirmation bias tend to support the idea of inadequate terminal effect.

You are not limited to military ball and can stock a supply of quality barrier blind JSP or JHP instead. Do that and stop worrying.

This is one of those topics that can be beaten to death forever and still have no real answer.

I heard the Military has kept the 5.56 round because it always takes out three men...one guy with the hole in him...and two others to carry him away...

...although I do own a mini 14...my go to is a semi-auto M14...or a couple of other choices that fire 7.62 x 39 ...

...a Jeff Cooper quote...

"The 223 (5.56 x 45 mm) cartridge is inadequate for anything bigger than varmints, therefore the designation of the Ar-15/M-16 as "poodle-shooter"

...(and I believe that he was referring to a "toy" poodle)...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

They tried to "improve" on the original by going to a heavier bullet and speeding up the twist. At 2500 fps a 62 gr from a 1/7 barrel is spinning about 250,000 rpm (no, I didn't break out the calculator. Correction in 5...4...3...2...) Joe.

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Guess nobody has told all the dead critters and enemy
combatants that 5.56 is not deadly and doesn't have
"stopping power".
As stated previously, If you use a good bullet that is not a
FMJ this round is deadly for anything up to "around" 200 pounds.
Fortunately we as civilians are not limited to strictly shooting
ball ammo.
As you move to bigger game of course i would move up in
bullet weight and diameter.
That's the thing about gun articles. Lot of opinions out there.
I wouldn't hesitate to shoulder one of my AR's in 5.56 if
the SHTF, or if I needed a Deer for the meat.
Think bullet placement.


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

Stopping power. Stopping the bad guy. Worthless round. Whew.

Hmmm. A head shot with a 55-grain bullet traveling at a bit over 3200fps...would that equate with "stopping power"?

Or maybe a 3-round burst in the chest cavity? Would that qualify as "stopping power"?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here with a WAG and say yes, I believe that's stopping power. I could be wrong. I often am.

I've seen a lot of old threads dredged up on this board from time to time. But this one is nigh onto fifty years old.

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America First

Took a VC off a helo at 3rd surge in 71. 2 AR rds through the neck. Walked off on his own.

That's one lucky VC. Three bullets and not vital hits in the NECK? Ok, as per the thread here, would a .30 cal have flattened him permanently?

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Velocity is needed for smaller projectiles to work.
Short sexy barrels don't work as well as longer barrels when the target is farther away.

OK

The "improvement" had much to do with a change in priorities.

M193 was effective within it's 200 meter (it) effective range, but it was not very effective if there were ay intervening barriers, such as glass, walls, etc. In fact, your .45 ACP and 9mm pistol rounds are more likely to pass though an interior walls and an exterior wall in the average house than M193. M193 will start to tumble and fragment as it passes through the first interior drywall and will a lot less likely to penetrate the exterior wall due to the fragmentation. In contrast a 9mm or 45 ACP hollow point will just plug with dry wall and exit the house like a 9mm or 45 ACP FMJ.

M855 was developed using the NATO SS109 projectile with a steel penetrator that was designed to effectively defeat intermediate barriers such as glass, mild steel plate, etc. Specifically, the SS019 round was designed for the FN FNC rifle and the FN Minimi machine guns, and was designed to penetrate 3.5 mm of steel at 600 meters.

That became relevant when the US adopted the M249, an adaptation of the FM Minimi, and the same requirement was imposed on the M16A2 a couple years prior to that.

1-7" rifling was adopted however to accommodate the significantly longer M856 tracer round. The geniuses in charge decided that troops needed to be able to fire the M856 out of the M16A2 and get the same effective range and penetration range. So, while a 1-9 twist was ideal for the 62 gr SS109/M855 projectile, 1-7 was adopted to accommodate a tracer round that seldom gets fired in an M16 or M4, and if it is, it's done over a far shorter effective range.

The effectiveness of M855 on personnel was NOT a primary consideration in the adoption of M855. It is true that M855 will tumble and fragment at the distances described in the table in my prior post, but that's not cut on stone as it's also where the "fleet yaw" issue described below comes into play.


The short story is that shorter barrel length and the heavier M855 bullet both limit independently and together the ranges at which you'll get reliable energy dump in the target through tumbling and fragmentation.

But, if you're talking about a self defense shoot at less than 50m, it's pretty much a non issue. And if you're trying to call it a "self defense" shoot at ranges over 50m you better have a really good story and a really good attorney.

Folks have seen too many Dirty Harry and Bruce Willis movies.............

one round from a .44 mag will throw you back against the diner wall......

one lone guy with a 9mm Beretta........ shoot and kills 8 or 10 ex-special forces bad guys all shooting at him with full auto rifles..they drop like rocks in a pond..... in the end all he has to do is blow the smoke from his muzzle.....Yippee ki yay mother..................

With a .223 it's not......................

one shot ...stop ....... evaluate target...... still up and moving......shoot again .........evaluate......... nope still moving.........shoot again..............................

it's more like...... bang-bang-bang... bang bang

yep took me 5 shots to drop that ___________; need to get me a bigger gun!

You called?

This is where a large volume of data from military combat zone incidents is needed to make a decision as to what to put in the hands of each of our valued troops. We have this data, we just choose to look at the isolated experience of individuals.

Yeah, AAR (after action reports) carry weight.
Not BS opinion's in shooting magazines and range gossiping hero's.

Stopping Power ( or whatever terminology regarding the probability of shootee falling down in a timely manner ) with fmj from rifles will involve tumbling of the bullet, ideally tumbling AND fragmenting . Put another way the goal is for the bullet to be unstable in flesh . For the bullet to reach the flesh, it must be stable enough in air to be reasonably accurate.

Generally the factors are length of bullet and rate of twist . To oversimplify the goal would be a bullet just barely stable enough to reach the target. This can be aproached from either direction. Such as in the early '60s with 55gr in 1 :14 , and recently with 77gr in 1: 7 .

I've done a little with 62gr in 1:12 , and intent eventually to work with 69gr in 1: 9 .

Exactly.

The same is true with a self defense handgun.

Over time, the number of shots fired by police offers, on average, in an officer involved shoot have increased significantly. That's partly due to more officers shooting a high capacity semi auto as opposed to a revolver, but it's also largely due to a change from the older "shoot to wound" philosophy to a "shoot until the suspect stops posing a threat" philosophy.

Officers are less often shooting 1 or 2 rounds and then evaluating the need for follow up shots, they are more frequently shooting until the suspect is clearly down.