Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-31-2017, 11:40 AM
tndrfttom's Avatar
tndrfttom tndrfttom is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 234
Likes: 403
Liked 437 Times in 112 Posts
Default Unusual JHP Deterioration

A friend gave me a bunch of old ammo, most of it in various stages of deterioration from being stored in a hot and humid garage. There is a handfull of WINCHESTER 357 MAG headstamped ammo that the lead slug insert is squeezing its way slowly out of the jackets. Never seen anything like it before!
Attached Thumbnails
Unusual JHP Deterioration-p1310015-jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-31-2017, 11:45 AM
ArchAngelCD's Avatar
ArchAngelCD ArchAngelCD is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Northeast PA, USA
Posts: 5,170
Likes: 256
Liked 1,594 Times in 985 Posts
Default

Now that is very different. I'm no expert but don't think that should be shot lol.

I have never seen anything like that either, wow.
__________________
Freedom is never free!!
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 01-31-2017, 01:25 PM
BB57's Avatar
BB57 BB57 is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 591
Liked 2,968 Times in 952 Posts
Default

Nah it's fine. It just wants to grow up to be .357 Maximum. There's nothing wrong with a little ambition in life.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 01-31-2017, 03:57 PM
zonker5's Avatar
zonker5 zonker5 is offline
SWCA Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: North Texas
Posts: 1,165
Likes: 2,193
Liked 1,123 Times in 406 Posts
Default

If it was a matter of heat building up pressure in the case I'd expect the entire bullet to move, not the lead center.

I would send that picture to Winchester and see what they say about it.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 01-31-2017, 04:16 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 7,404
Liked 2,025 Times in 838 Posts
Default

Someone tried to unload with a kinetic hammer? The bullet has a hard roll crimp and maybe stuck. The jackets on the right & left are straight so it took pressure to stick the lead out. The bullet on the left is bent in the middle with a ring around it. It didnt bend with out help. Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

Last edited by 4barrel; 01-31-2017 at 07:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-31-2017, 05:08 PM
Fishinfool Fishinfool is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,003
Likes: 2,260
Liked 3,225 Times in 1,082 Posts
Default

That's a first, as far as I have ever seen, anyway. I cant imagine any naturally occurring pressure that would cause a core to separate from the jacket like that, especially without moving the jacket as well. That aint no "humidity" issue. I'll be curious what some of the opinions are here...

Larry

Last edited by Fishinfool; 01-31-2017 at 05:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 01-31-2017, 05:15 PM
03clyde's Avatar
03clyde 03clyde is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Crossville TN
Posts: 475
Likes: 680
Liked 235 Times in 108 Posts
Default

I'd love to see what Winchester has to say about it. Any chance the cardboard box is still around? The lot number, if present, would probably help.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 01-31-2017, 06:10 PM
tndrfttom's Avatar
tndrfttom tndrfttom is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 234
Likes: 403
Liked 437 Times in 112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 03clyde View Post
I'd love to see what Winchester has to say about it. Any chance the cardboard box is still around? The lot number, if present, would probably help.
The cartridges in the photo I posted came out of plain cardboard box with no lid that also contained a mix of .38 Spl, 9mm, .380 Auto - some of it factory some reloads. They were not in their factory box so I've got no way to report a Lot number, etc. I did find a partial factory box of Winchester 357 Magnum 125 Gr. JHP (X3576P). These are in perfect-looking condition. The owner had a date on the box of 4-16-85. This factory box had been stored within 2 feet of the 357 cartridges in the photo.

I've returned ammo and brass to Winchester before and never got an explanation from them as to what was wrong with the product. In the first instance I got a coupon for a free box of 50 .22 LR cartridges. In the other case I got a bag of 50 replacement brass cases for the 150 defective cases I sent in.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 01-31-2017, 06:33 PM
Model520Fan Model520Fan is offline
US Veteran
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 5,369
Likes: 2,965
Liked 2,608 Times in 1,308 Posts
Default

Thank you. I don't know if one learns something new every day, but I learned a little today. I certainly hope that you send that photo off to Winchester, and that they send you the answer.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:31 PM
Steve912 Steve912 is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 795
Likes: 855
Liked 615 Times in 346 Posts
Default

What the...!!

Shooter (4/8) Movie CLIP - Mister Rate's Advice (2007) HD - YouTube
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 01-31-2017, 09:37 PM
pharmer's Avatar
pharmer pharmer is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Santo las nubes, Florida
Posts: 4,845
Likes: 1,438
Liked 4,514 Times in 1,728 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4barrel View Post
Someone tried to unload with a kinetic hammer?
I second that "Motion." Joe
__________________
Deplorably Optimistic
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 02-01-2017, 12:42 AM
HCH HCH is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hancock County Ohio
Posts: 574
Likes: 729
Liked 346 Times in 159 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4barrel View Post
Thats my story and I am sticking to it.
Certainly the most logical and scientifically plausable story I've seen posted. I think you nailed it.

Last edited by HCH; 02-01-2017 at 12:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 02-01-2017, 02:15 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 21,693
Likes: 25,568
Liked 17,584 Times in 8,733 Posts
Default I would guess that.....

.....the powder is deteriorating and growing as a result.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 02-01-2017, 03:19 AM
.41fan .41fan is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix Az.
Posts: 47
Likes: 83
Liked 16 Times in 8 Posts
Default

First are you sure your friend didn't store his ammo and Viagra close to each other? Seriously that is odd but I also vote with the bullet puller explanation.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 02-01-2017, 03:14 PM
arjay's Avatar
arjay arjay is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Colorado
Posts: 10,663
Likes: 45,161
Liked 13,434 Times in 4,839 Posts
Default

Faeries...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 02-01-2017, 03:47 PM
Old cop Old cop is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,801
Likes: 783
Liked 6,224 Times in 1,987 Posts
Default

I've never seen anything like that either. When I retired, after a 30 year career, I had a large envelope of lose .38, 9MM & 40 caliber rounds in my locker. Some of the .38 went all the way back to the early '70s when my agency switched from the round nose standard pressure to the +P FBI load. All of it shot just fine.
__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 02-01-2017, 03:51 PM
TAC TAC is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Posts: 826
Likes: 274
Liked 483 Times in 256 Posts
Default

Viagra get mixed into the powder?
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #18  
Old 04-09-2017, 04:21 PM
tndrfttom's Avatar
tndrfttom tndrfttom is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 234
Likes: 403
Liked 437 Times in 112 Posts
Default UPDATE - Reply from Winchester

Long story short, I sent the cartridges shown in the photo in the original post to Winchester back in February. Last week I got a form letter from Winchester Ammunition and a check for $56.00. The letter, dated March 3, 2017, says in part:

"Please be assured that we are interested in evaluating the problem and addressing your concerns in a timely manner. To that end, the ammunition you sent has been turned over to our Quality Control team."

If/when I get some info on why these bullets "went bad" from the Quality Control Team I'll pass it along.

Last edited by tndrfttom; 04-10-2017 at 07:53 AM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #19  
Old 04-09-2017, 07:11 PM
lebomm lebomm is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,821
Likes: 36
Liked 697 Times in 426 Posts
Default

I've pulled a gang of bullets, cast and jacketed, with inertia pullers over the last 50 years. Never seen any come apart like that. Looking fwd to Winchester's further info.

Larry
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-10-2017, 07:54 AM
chief38's Avatar
chief38 chief38 is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 9,513
Likes: 2,166
Liked 7,054 Times in 3,158 Posts
Default

WOW! that's a new one to me. I would think that Garage has to be MIGHTY hot & humid!!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-10-2017, 07:25 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 21,693
Likes: 25,568
Liked 17,584 Times in 8,733 Posts
Default Bonded core?

Also, that batch must go back to the time before decent jacket/core bonding. No wonder there was so much concern about jackets getting caught in the barrel back then,.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-10-2017, 08:59 PM
Buford57 Buford57 is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,576
Likes: 52
Liked 1,193 Times in 467 Posts
Default

Here's my guess: the bullet puller was an RCBS collet style puller using an undersize collet, possibly a .30 caliber. It only allowed the lead nose to enter the collet and therefore pulled the core. After 5 times with the same result, he gave up.
__________________
Who are you guys?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #23  
Old 04-11-2017, 12:30 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 21,693
Likes: 25,568
Liked 17,584 Times in 8,733 Posts
Default That's downright plausible.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buford57 View Post
Here's my guess: the bullet puller was an RCBS collet style puller using an undersize collet, possibly a .30 caliber. It only allowed the lead nose to enter the collet and therefore pulled the core. After 5 times with the same result, he gave up.
Do any of the marks on the bullet correspond to that scenario? Those long grooves can't be from a collet that small, though. I don't know where a collet grips the bullet (inertia man here) so I can't say.

The grooves make it look like a full sized collet was used and got good grip on the lead, but not the jacket. (Again, poorly bonded)
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 04-11-2017 at 12:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-11-2017, 05:56 AM
muddocktor's Avatar
muddocktor muddocktor is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 3,643
Liked 2,536 Times in 1,039 Posts
Default

Those are really strange looking to say the least. And they don't look like they were grabbed with a collet type bullet puller as the lead nose doesn't look like it was gripped at all. I'll be curious if Winchester ever gets back to you about what happened also.

RW, a collet style puller would have grabbed the jacket and not the lead. The collet doesn't have that much range of motion downwards to grab the lead. And the lead would have been squeezed and shiny and it isn't in that pic.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-11-2017, 12:42 PM
Buford57 Buford57 is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,576
Likes: 52
Liked 1,193 Times in 467 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddocktor View Post
Those are really strange looking to say the least. And they don't look like they were grabbed with a collet type bullet puller as the lead nose doesn't look like it was gripped at all. I'll be curious if Winchester ever gets back to you about what happened also.

RW, a collet style puller would have grabbed the jacket and not the lead. The collet doesn't have that much range of motion downwards to grab the lead. And the lead would have been squeezed and shiny and it isn't in that pic.
That's why I suggested an undersized collet: The bullet couldn't enter far enough for the collet to grip the jacket. The striations on the lead appear to be from where the jacket was stabbed to the core.
__________________
Who are you guys?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #26  
Old 04-11-2017, 04:29 PM
tndrfttom's Avatar
tndrfttom tndrfttom is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 234
Likes: 403
Liked 437 Times in 112 Posts
Default

I tend to disagree with the bullet puller theories because the guy that gave me the old ammo that contained these strange Winchester cartridges/bullets was not a reloader. He didnít even have a loading press let alone a collet puller. He was a state wildlife officer and was issued ammunition by his agency; he didnít have a real need to handload his own ammo.

I assumed that the linear striations are from the six stab crimps on the mouth of the bullet jacket and that the crimps were intended to mechanically bond the soft lead core to the gilding metal jacket.

Hopefully Winchester can explain why the lead slug is trying to extricate itself from the jacket.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #27  
Old 04-11-2017, 04:56 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 7,404
Liked 2,025 Times in 838 Posts
Default

I am like the guy in the Clint Eastwood movie. I just gots to know. This is good as Perry Mason. When he got to the end he said <This 357 case is closed>

Last edited by 4barrel; 04-11-2017 at 06:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #28  
Old 04-11-2017, 05:27 PM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
SWCA Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Battery Oaks Range, S.C.
Posts: 1,743
Likes: 5,235
Liked 3,046 Times in 1,062 Posts
Default

That's why I come here. A first for me!
__________________
Carry and shoot everyday!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #29  
Old 04-11-2017, 06:22 PM
ameridaddy ameridaddy is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: central Virginia
Posts: 439
Likes: 775
Liked 629 Times in 241 Posts
Default

I'll vote for a botched bullet pulling effort of some kind.
Otherwise, I'm saying they're loaded with a very, very, very slow burning powder.
OK, now I'm running for my bunker.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #30  
Old 04-11-2017, 07:21 PM
Steve912 Steve912 is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 795
Likes: 855
Liked 615 Times in 346 Posts
Default

Looking at the left-most round in the pic: Isn't the length of exposed 'extruded' core (part with skiving from jacket) *longer* than the amount of lead typically inside the jacketed area, of a normal JHP bullet?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 04-11-2017, 07:38 PM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 6,132
Likes: 143
Liked 3,059 Times in 1,586 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
.....the powder is deteriorating and growing as a result.
I agree this is the most likely cause. If that is the case I suspect that what is inside that case is quite unstable. So don't even think about using a kinetic bullet puller or you may find yourself picking shrapnel out of your body parts. I also would not store it in any area of my property that contained something I wanted to have intact. While just one spontaneously going off is unlikely to set a gas can in the area on fire I wouldn't be so sure about 10 or 20 going off.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #32  
Old 04-11-2017, 07:47 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 7,404
Liked 2,025 Times in 838 Posts
Default

What happened to the lead on the one on the right? It has a straight jacket. It looks like they have been very hot at one time. Where is the lead? I would like to see photos of the primers. I am just along for the ride.

Last edited by 4barrel; 04-11-2017 at 08:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-11-2017, 08:50 PM
tndrfttom's Avatar
tndrfttom tndrfttom is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 234
Likes: 403
Liked 437 Times in 112 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4barrel View Post
What happened to the lead on the one on the right? It has a straight jacket. It looks like they have been very hot at one time. Where is the lead? I would like to see photos of the primers. I am just along for the ride.
The lead insert for the cartridge on the right was never found and believe me I looked for it because I was as baffled as everyone else. When I collected this stuff from my friend's garage the boxed ammo was carried home in cardboard boxes and the loose ammo was just dumped in a canvas bag for sorting when I got home. When I started finding these misshapened bullets I started looking for the led slug that was missing - never did find it.

The primers look fine; flat and normal with reddish waterproofing ring in the primer annulus.

I kept a few examples because I figured I'd never get the cartridges I sent Winchester back. I've tried to remove the lead slug from the jacket using finger pressure only (twisting, pulling and trying to "bend" the lead out of the jacket) but it is stuck tight.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #34  
Old 04-11-2017, 09:09 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 7,404
Liked 2,025 Times in 838 Posts
Default

Ladies and gentleman --This proves you can get $56 worth of blood out of a turnip. And not worry about the outcome.

Last edited by 4barrel; 04-11-2017 at 09:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-11-2017, 09:29 PM
Topsarge Topsarge is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 222
Likes: 311
Liked 155 Times in 91 Posts
Default

I'm thinking that the expansion rate of the lead and the copper jacket are different, and that might have caused it. You said it was stored in a hot humid garage.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-11-2017, 09:52 PM
Mistered Mistered is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Wickiup Junction, OR
Posts: 594
Likes: 10
Liked 695 Times in 307 Posts
Default

I had a recent bullet/brass mystery but it was much easier to decipher than this one. Recently I came across a big can of nickel .357 brass I forgot I had. I remembered it was given to me a couple years ago and since I am short on brass cases I decided to prep and use it. Anyway while resizing one case it was tight and would not feed all the way up in the die. I stopped when I realized this and backed off and when I looked inside I saw what appeared to be a bullet with a flattened nose like a JSP. Well long story short. I took it out to my band saw and cut it lengthwise and discovered it was a 9mm FMJ bullet nose in the .357 case. Who knows maybe the original owner dropped a couple bullets in the can (I found one more) or maybe an inquisitive kid got into dads reloading stuff and discovered the bullets and the brass fit together.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #37  
Old 04-12-2017, 11:22 AM
tndrfttom's Avatar
tndrfttom tndrfttom is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 234
Likes: 403
Liked 437 Times in 112 Posts
Default

I finally took the time to pull one of the bullets in an attempt to respond to some of the theories and questions that had been asked in this thread. I only pulled one bullet but it seemed representative of the batch.

In the first picture you can see one of the cartridges as I found them (this one is developing some corrosion on the nickel plate). I attempted to pull bullet with my collet puller but the fingers could not hold the bullet jacket tight enough to pull the bullet from the case, possibly due to the black sealing compound. I did not try to ďbumpĒ the bullet down with a seating die to break the seal and crimp because I thought that would just push the slug back into the jacket.

Next I tried the old hammer-type inertia puller. After a few whacks on a lead bar the bullet came free. The spherical ball powder seems normal as does the base of the bullet. No corrosion noted inside the cartridge case or on the bullet base.

Iím starting to think like "Topsarge" that there is some characteristic in the lead and the jacket that slowly pushed the two metals apart. But why then were these similar cartridges stored only about 2 feet away in their factory box in good shape? Enquiring minds want to know!
Attached Thumbnails
Unusual JHP Deterioration-p4090030-jpg   Unusual JHP Deterioration-p4090031-jpg   Unusual JHP Deterioration-p4090033-jpg   Unusual JHP Deterioration-p5130051-jpg   Unusual JHP Deterioration-p5130050-jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-12-2017, 06:10 PM
Steve912 Steve912 is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 795
Likes: 855
Liked 615 Times in 346 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tndrfttom View Post
I finally took the time to pull one of the bullets in an attempt to respond to some of the theories and questions that had been asked in this thread. I only pulled one bullet but it seemed representative of the batch.

Enquiring minds want to know!
Indeed!

Could you dissect the base of the jacket cup? It would be interesting to see what's happened in there, between the jacket and base of the lead...
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-12-2017, 06:26 PM
lebomm lebomm is offline
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,821
Likes: 36
Liked 697 Times in 426 Posts
Default

I notice on your pulled bullet, that its diameter ahead of the cannelure appears to have been reduced. A collet puller can do this, and in the process, would probably cause the core to extrude a bit. The failed inertia-puller attempt is so far the only theory that makes any sense to me.

Larry

Last edited by lebomm; 04-12-2017 at 06:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-28-2017, 06:22 PM
tndrfttom's Avatar
tndrfttom tndrfttom is online now
Member
Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration Unusual JHP Deterioration  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: So. Florida
Posts: 234
Likes: 403
Liked 437 Times in 112 Posts
Default Winchester's Reply

After not hearing anything from Winchester Ammunition on the cartridges I sent them, I contacted Winchester and asked what their quality control experts had figured out about the bullet/cartridges I'd sent them. Their reply:

"Hi Tom,

The test results are held internally for quality control purposes and are not released.

Thank you,"

So, I guess if Winchester knows what was wrong with this ammo they ain't tellin!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Powder Deterioration jdlii Reloading 14 06-22-2016 05:15 PM
Unusual Mod 10? fulwood S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 4 08-01-2011 02:15 PM
New Unusual Sambar Stag Grips On An Unusual .44 Special Wyatt Burp The Lounge 5 07-26-2011 12:08 AM
Unusual 24-3 Dave T S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 37 01-23-2010 10:14 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:59 PM.


© S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)