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Old 01-31-2017, 11:40 AM
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Default Unusual JHP Deterioration

A friend gave me a bunch of old ammo, most of it in various stages of deterioration from being stored in a hot and humid garage. There is a handfull of WINCHESTER 357 MAG headstamped ammo that the lead slug insert is squeezing its way slowly out of the jackets. Never seen anything like it before!
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Old 01-31-2017, 11:45 AM
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Now that is very different. I'm no expert but don't think that should be shot lol.

I have never seen anything like that either, wow.
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Old 01-31-2017, 01:25 PM
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Nah it's fine. It just wants to grow up to be .357 Maximum. There's nothing wrong with a little ambition in life.
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Old 01-31-2017, 03:57 PM
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If it was a matter of heat building up pressure in the case I'd expect the entire bullet to move, not the lead center.

I would send that picture to Winchester and see what they say about it.
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Old 01-31-2017, 04:16 PM
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Someone tried to unload with a kinetic hammer? The bullet has a hard roll crimp and maybe stuck. The jackets on the right & left are straight so it took pressure to stick the lead out. The bullet on the left is bent in the middle with a ring around it. It didnt bend with out help. Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

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Old 01-31-2017, 05:08 PM
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That's a first, as far as I have ever seen, anyway. I cant imagine any naturally occurring pressure that would cause a core to separate from the jacket like that, especially without moving the jacket as well. That aint no "humidity" issue. I'll be curious what some of the opinions are here...

Larry

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Old 01-31-2017, 05:15 PM
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I'd love to see what Winchester has to say about it. Any chance the cardboard box is still around? The lot number, if present, would probably help.
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Old 01-31-2017, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03clyde View Post
I'd love to see what Winchester has to say about it. Any chance the cardboard box is still around? The lot number, if present, would probably help.
The cartridges in the photo I posted came out of plain cardboard box with no lid that also contained a mix of .38 Spl, 9mm, .380 Auto - some of it factory some reloads. They were not in their factory box so I've got no way to report a Lot number, etc. I did find a partial factory box of Winchester 357 Magnum 125 Gr. JHP (X3576P). These are in perfect-looking condition. The owner had a date on the box of 4-16-85. This factory box had been stored within 2 feet of the 357 cartridges in the photo.

I've returned ammo and brass to Winchester before and never got an explanation from them as to what was wrong with the product. In the first instance I got a coupon for a free box of 50 .22 LR cartridges. In the other case I got a bag of 50 replacement brass cases for the 150 defective cases I sent in.
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Old 01-31-2017, 06:33 PM
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Thank you. I don't know if one learns something new every day, but I learned a little today. I certainly hope that you send that photo off to Winchester, and that they send you the answer.
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Old 01-31-2017, 07:31 PM
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What the...!!

Shooter (4/8) Movie CLIP - Mister Rate's Advice (2007) HD - YouTube
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Old 01-31-2017, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4barrel View Post
Someone tried to unload with a kinetic hammer?
I second that "Motion." Joe
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Old 02-01-2017, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4barrel View Post
Thats my story and I am sticking to it.
Certainly the most logical and scientifically plausable story I've seen posted. I think you nailed it.

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Old 02-01-2017, 02:15 AM
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Default I would guess that.....

.....the powder is deteriorating and growing as a result.
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Old 02-01-2017, 03:19 AM
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First are you sure your friend didn't store his ammo and Viagra close to each other? Seriously that is odd but I also vote with the bullet puller explanation.
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Old 02-01-2017, 03:14 PM
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Faeries...
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Old 02-01-2017, 03:47 PM
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I've never seen anything like that either. When I retired, after a 30 year career, I had a large envelope of lose .38, 9MM & 40 caliber rounds in my locker. Some of the .38 went all the way back to the early '70s when my agency switched from the round nose standard pressure to the +P FBI load. All of it shot just fine.
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Old 02-01-2017, 03:51 PM
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Viagra get mixed into the powder?
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Old 04-09-2017, 04:21 PM
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Default UPDATE - Reply from Winchester

Long story short, I sent the cartridges shown in the photo in the original post to Winchester back in February. Last week I got a form letter from Winchester Ammunition and a check for $56.00. The letter, dated March 3, 2017, says in part:

"Please be assured that we are interested in evaluating the problem and addressing your concerns in a timely manner. To that end, the ammunition you sent has been turned over to our Quality Control team."

If/when I get some info on why these bullets "went bad" from the Quality Control Team I'll pass it along.

Last edited by tndrfttom; 04-10-2017 at 07:53 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-09-2017, 07:11 PM
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I've pulled a gang of bullets, cast and jacketed, with inertia pullers over the last 50 years. Never seen any come apart like that. Looking fwd to Winchester's further info.

Larry
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:54 AM
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WOW! that's a new one to me. I would think that Garage has to be MIGHTY hot & humid!!
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:25 PM
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Default Bonded core?

Also, that batch must go back to the time before decent jacket/core bonding. No wonder there was so much concern about jackets getting caught in the barrel back then,.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:59 PM
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Here's my guess: the bullet puller was an RCBS collet style puller using an undersize collet, possibly a .30 caliber. It only allowed the lead nose to enter the collet and therefore pulled the core. After 5 times with the same result, he gave up.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:30 AM
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Default That's downright plausible.....

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Originally Posted by Buford57 View Post
Here's my guess: the bullet puller was an RCBS collet style puller using an undersize collet, possibly a .30 caliber. It only allowed the lead nose to enter the collet and therefore pulled the core. After 5 times with the same result, he gave up.
Do any of the marks on the bullet correspond to that scenario? Those long grooves can't be from a collet that small, though. I don't know where a collet grips the bullet (inertia man here) so I can't say.

The grooves make it look like a full sized collet was used and got good grip on the lead, but not the jacket. (Again, poorly bonded)
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Old 04-11-2017, 05:56 AM
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Those are really strange looking to say the least. And they don't look like they were grabbed with a collet type bullet puller as the lead nose doesn't look like it was gripped at all. I'll be curious if Winchester ever gets back to you about what happened also.

RW, a collet style puller would have grabbed the jacket and not the lead. The collet doesn't have that much range of motion downwards to grab the lead. And the lead would have been squeezed and shiny and it isn't in that pic.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muddocktor View Post
Those are really strange looking to say the least. And they don't look like they were grabbed with a collet type bullet puller as the lead nose doesn't look like it was gripped at all. I'll be curious if Winchester ever gets back to you about what happened also.

RW, a collet style puller would have grabbed the jacket and not the lead. The collet doesn't have that much range of motion downwards to grab the lead. And the lead would have been squeezed and shiny and it isn't in that pic.
That's why I suggested an undersized collet: The bullet couldn't enter far enough for the collet to grip the jacket. The striations on the lead appear to be from where the jacket was stabbed to the core.
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Old 04-11-2017, 04:29 PM
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I tend to disagree with the bullet puller theories because the guy that gave me the old ammo that contained these strange Winchester cartridges/bullets was not a reloader. He didnít even have a loading press let alone a collet puller. He was a state wildlife officer and was issued ammunition by his agency; he didnít have a real need to handload his own ammo.

I assumed that the linear striations are from the six stab crimps on the mouth of the bullet jacket and that the crimps were intended to mechanically bond the soft lead core to the gilding metal jacket.

Hopefully Winchester can explain why the lead slug is trying to extricate itself from the jacket.
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Old 04-11-2017, 04:56 PM
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I am like the guy in the Clint Eastwood movie. I just gots to know. This is good as Perry Mason. When he got to the end he said <This 357 case is closed>

Last edited by 4barrel; 04-11-2017 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 04-11-2017, 05:27 PM
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That's why I come here. A first for me!
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Old 04-11-2017, 06:22 PM
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I'll vote for a botched bullet pulling effort of some kind.
Otherwise, I'm saying they're loaded with a very, very, very slow burning powder.
OK, now I'm running for my bunker.
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Old 04-11-2017, 07:21 PM
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Looking at the left-most round in the pic: Isn't the length of exposed 'extruded' core (part with skiving from jacket) *longer* than the amount of lead typically inside the jacketed area, of a normal JHP bullet?
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Old 04-11-2017, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
.....the powder is deteriorating and growing as a result.
I agree this is the most likely cause. If that is the case I suspect that what is inside that case is quite unstable. So don't even think about using a kinetic bullet puller or you may find yourself picking shrapnel out of your body parts. I also would not store it in any area of my property that contained something I wanted to have intact. While just one spontaneously going off is unlikely to set a gas can in the area on fire I wouldn't be so sure about 10 or 20 going off.
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Old 04-11-2017, 07:47 PM
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What happened to the lead on the one on the right? It has a straight jacket. It looks like they have been very hot at one time. Where is the lead? I would like to see photos of the primers. I am just along for the ride.

Last edited by 4barrel; 04-11-2017 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
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What happened to the lead on the one on the right? It has a straight jacket. It looks like they have been very hot at one time. Where is the lead? I would like to see photos of the primers. I am just along for the ride.
The lead insert for the cartridge on the right was never found and believe me I looked for it because I was as baffled as everyone else. When I collected this stuff from my friend's garage the boxed ammo was carried home in cardboard boxes and the loose ammo was just dumped in a canvas bag for sorting when I got home. When I started finding these misshapened bullets I started looking for the led slug that was missing - never did find it.

The primers look fine; flat and normal with reddish waterproofing ring in the primer annulus.

I kept a few examples because I figured I'd never get the cartridges I sent Winchester back. I've tried to remove the lead slug from the jacket using finger pressure only (twisting, pulling and trying to "bend" the lead out of the jacket) but it is stuck tight.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:09 PM
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Ladies and gentleman --This proves you can get $56 worth of blood out of a turnip. And not worry about the outcome.

Last edited by 4barrel; 04-11-2017 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:29 PM
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I'm thinking that the expansion rate of the lead and the copper jacket are different, and that might have caused it. You said it was stored in a hot humid garage.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:52 PM
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I had a recent bullet/brass mystery but it was much easier to decipher than this one. Recently I came across a big can of nickel .357 brass I forgot I had. I remembered it was given to me a couple years ago and since I am short on brass cases I decided to prep and use it. Anyway while resizing one case it was tight and would not feed all the way up in the die. I stopped when I realized this and backed off and when I looked inside I saw what appeared to be a bullet with a flattened nose like a JSP. Well long story short. I took it out to my band saw and cut it lengthwise and discovered it was a 9mm FMJ bullet nose in the .357 case. Who knows maybe the original owner dropped a couple bullets in the can (I found one more) or maybe an inquisitive kid got into dads reloading stuff and discovered the bullets and the brass fit together.
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Old 04-12-2017, 11:22 AM
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I finally took the time to pull one of the bullets in an attempt to respond to some of the theories and questions that had been asked in this thread. I only pulled one bullet but it seemed representative of the batch.

In the first picture you can see one of the cartridges as I found them (this one is developing some corrosion on the nickel plate). I attempted to pull bullet with my collet puller but the fingers could not hold the bullet jacket tight enough to pull the bullet from the case, possibly due to the black sealing compound. I did not try to ďbumpĒ the bullet down with a seating die to break the seal and crimp because I thought that would just push the slug back into the jacket.

Next I tried the old hammer-type inertia puller. After a few whacks on a lead bar the bullet came free. The spherical ball powder seems normal as does the base of the bullet. No corrosion noted inside the cartridge case or on the bullet base.

Iím starting to think like "Topsarge" that there is some characteristic in the lead and the jacket that slowly pushed the two metals apart. But why then were these similar cartridges stored only about 2 feet away in their factory box in good shape? Enquiring minds want to know!
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  #38  
Old 04-12-2017, 06:10 PM
Steve912 Steve912 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tndrfttom View Post
I finally took the time to pull one of the bullets in an attempt to respond to some of the theories and questions that had been asked in this thread. I only pulled one bullet but it seemed representative of the batch.

Enquiring minds want to know!
Indeed!

Could you dissect the base of the jacket cup? It would be interesting to see what's happened in there, between the jacket and base of the lead...
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  #39  
Old 04-12-2017, 06:26 PM
lebomm lebomm is offline
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I notice on your pulled bullet, that its diameter ahead of the cannelure appears to have been reduced. A collet puller can do this, and in the process, would probably cause the core to extrude a bit. The failed inertia-puller attempt is so far the only theory that makes any sense to me.

Larry

Last edited by lebomm; 04-12-2017 at 06:29 PM.
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  #40  
Old 04-28-2017, 06:22 PM
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tndrfttom tndrfttom is offline
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After not hearing anything from Winchester Ammunition on the cartridges I sent them, I contacted Winchester and asked what their quality control experts had figured out about the bullet/cartridges I'd sent them. Their reply:

"Hi Tom,

The test results are held internally for quality control purposes and are not released.

Thank you,"

So, I guess if Winchester knows what was wrong with this ammo they ain't tellin!
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