Apparently, firing Remington/Winchester/Federal 38 Special +P LSWC-HP ammunition from two-inch barreled 357 Magnum revolvers does not "mushroom" its bullet when test fired through several layers of denim fronting ballistic gel, or into a malefactor.

Has anyone tried creating four scores at 90 degrees from each other around the nose of this bullet approximately .010 inch deep using a razor, box cutter, or pen knife blade? Slight scoring may assist bullet's reduced velocity to mushroom modestly. The amount of deformation of bullet's nose should have insignificant effect on accuracy at the range a two-inch-barreled revolver might [normally??] be used. And slight variations in depth of each of the two across-the-nose cuts on accuracy should be comparably insignificant and non-critical.

The big unknowns would be the attitude of the local prosecuting attorney were such a non-standard bullet used for successful self-defense, also whether the likelihood of some sort of civil suit by the person [or decedent's family] into whom the bullet was fired would be judged significantly higher than your acting in self-defense, using any unaltered factory ammunition.
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It's minus 22 degrees now with more snow on its way. This kind of global warming has been ongoing since mid-December and is expected to continue until . . . ? The road to the local range has been closed since early December; it is now a snowmobile/cross-country ski trail. It will reopen to wheeled traffic when the snow is gone.

So verifying how effectively this slight alteration of bullet's nose will function in any medium is not something I can attempt quickly. If anyone has tried this, or will try this soon, I welcome your results.

And you know the bullet won't expand from your gun how?

How many people do you know who put 4 pairs of jeans across their chest before they go out.

If you feel a bullet will not perform why are you going to use it? Choose ammo with a different bullet instead of modifying a time and street tested design.

IMO find the ammo that is most accurate in your gun and go with it. The rest will take care of itself.

Good luck...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Yes, choose the load that's most accurate and one that you can shoot well. We forget that for many, many years, law enforcement used the lowly 158-grain round nose, standard velocity .38 Special round to end the careers of many criminals. If there is anything in the way of factual statistics on this going back about a hundred years or so, I am unaware of their existence.

I'm not suggesting the standard .38 Special load as best; just something to consider for a comparative purpose.

If you alter or modify factory ammo, you give the BG's family a
good chance for a law suit.

No "Dumb Dumbs, "X's" wax or Perma-tex in the openings, please....................

With a heavy frame "Magnum" you can move up to better ammo if needed.

Ever hear of the widow maker?

Use some 125 grain Buffalo Bore JHPs in that snub. That will boost the velocity up and everyone knows 125 grain JHP .357 magnum will pick a man up off his feet and knock them down every time.

How could anyone not know that, having seen it so many times in the movies?

Underwood makes a .38 FBI-type load that would appear to get the velocity needed and isn't horribly high-priced. Whether that would get expansion from a two-inch barrel is for somebody to test. If I had a .38, this is a load I would look at, along with Buffalo Bore's offering.
However, rockquarry makes a good point: use the load you can hit best with.

Buffalo Bullet makes a powerful round of the same class. FBI load on steroids.

We have a retired LEO member here who survived two gunfights (his opponents didn't) while using the FBI load.

There are countless similar stories, which is why I carry the stuff and have for years.

I like tried-and-true things.

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Oh well, what the hell.

That is like saying when a man gets hit with a .45 Auto it will push him right through a storefront window. Of course both are not true.

Physics can't be fooled. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If a .357 Manum round were able to lift a man off his feet that same round would lift you off your feel when fired.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I JUST LOVE SCIENCE ! ! !

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I never heard of that term until the advent of the internet. The standard velocity R-P 158gr Round nose was the issue round when I came on the job. The only complaint I heard was that the soft lead bullets had trouble penetrating car doors.

The term was around long before the Internet and has been applied descriptively to many things besides cartridges. One would guess that most who loosely use the term have no personal knowledge or actual experience; they just read or heard it somewhere.

Ever hear of the " High Lift Tractor Jack " sold in most auto parts stores and tractor supply stores ? It is also called " the widow maker " .

Yes, had one for years. A useful tool that works well in many applications, but you do have to be very careful.

Get a real gun. I don't own any revolver with less than a 4 inch barrel. The one semi auto I have has a 4.5 inch barrel. All are easier to shoot than any pocket gun. Might just be me, but I'm comfortable with them.

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Just a shooter

BUFFALO BORE 158 GRAIN #20A LSWCHP-GC +P 38 SPECIAL

SPEER GOLD DOT 135 GRAIN GDHP +P 38 SPECIAL

These two are reliable expanders from 2" barrels and are about the best SD rounds you can use in a 38/357 snub gun. They also have done well in the penetration tests.

Spent 11 years with Dallas PD...1977-1988. During that time the issue gun was a S&W Model 64 4" with the 158 LSWC-HP. The chronographed velocity was between 900-950 fps depending on the maker and lot in use. Once you qualified with the city issue gun and load you could go buy any Colt, S&W or Browning revolver or semi-auto in most any caliber from 9mm to .45 Colt. Investigators could also carry .380s.

I personally spoke with eight DPD officers who shot people or "things" with .38 Special all but one using the city issue load in either 4" or 2" guns. Seven of the eight dropped the gun/load and bought something else. I spoke with several dozen other officers who shot people with everything from a 9mm to .44 Magnum and not one of them changed guns or loads.

In 1972 I was in Houston working for US Customs while going to college. There I met a HPD officer who was a rookie during the 1968 riots. During the riots he got into a shooting across a wide street with two guys who were hiding behind a stand on the corner mail box...the big heavy steel ones. He was hiding behind a telephone pole that was none too wide. After exchanging several shots a car pulled up and the guys jumped in and drove off. The officer went on to more important things. After all had calmed down he went back to the scene of the shooing and discovered six dents in the side of the mail box...he was using a 4" .38 Special...which was then replaced by a 6" nickel 57 .41 Magnum.

Fast forward 9 years... A co-worker and I are at the DPD range. I was shooting a .38 Super and my friend a Browning High Power 9mm. We are both using my lead bullet reloads. At the range is a stand on the corner mail box that has seen better days. We decide to add two more holes to it...both shots went through both sides... One of the other guys who we worked with (who I saw just retired two months ago) showed up to shoot and is carrying the city issue gun and load. We show him what our guns did and he decided to give it a try. From about 10 yards he shoots and I start laughing...exact conversation..."What are you laughing about, you're always making fun of my city issue"...my response was..."Your bullet is stuck in the side of the mail box..." "It is not..."...and we walked up and there was the base of the bullet sticking out of the side of the box... He backs up and fires again...and 2" away is another bullet stuck in the side of the mail box... Couple of days later he shows up with a brand new 27-2 6.5" with real .357s in it.

Shortly after this incident another officer who I was good friends with and went on to be a deputy chief was in a car chase with some robbery suspects. The car ended up coming straight at him when he got out of his car....two rounds bounced off the windshield right in front of the driver. My friend stepped aside and put three rounds into the drives door from about 2' as the car went past...which resulted in three lead steaks/dents in the door. He came in a few days later with the same 27-2 6.5" the other officer bought.

Another co-worker got into a fight with a burglar after a foot chase. The officer had his primary holster gun taken from him...a 6" nickel 25-5. As the officer put some distance between he and the suspect he drew his backup Model 60 loaded with the city issue ammo just as the BG fired at him. The officer turned and fired one round at the suspect and hit him in the neck causing the BG to drop the gun...and RUN. Officer picked up his gun and chased the suspect down again and ended up almost loosing his gun a second time...this time however he got control of the 25-5 and fired one round into the guys chest ending the fight. The .38 was found in the guys neck hardly expanded.

The senior guy in my academy class got in two shooting with the city issue. The first involved fighting with a guy with a gun who had him jammed in a doorway. My friend could only get a head shot on the guy that hit him in the cheek....he told me "Bob, the guy just growled at me". The fight continued and my friend finally got a second shot in that killed the guy. The first round had bounced off his cheekbone.

Same officer is now training a rookie and they respond to a shots fired call in an apartment complex. Residents point out the apartment that has a door on a courtyard. The officers get on each side of the door that is cracked open and knock and announce.. A male voice from inside says "come in" so the officers push the door open but stay behind cover. There about 8' away is a guy holding a handgun at his side. They order him to drop it and he starts raising toward them. Both officers fire one round and step back behind cover....next thing they hear is a female voice from the back of the apartment..."What's all that noise out there"...then a male voice..."The pOlice done shot me...". The officers look back in to see the man still standing where he was still holding the gun that is now at his side. The guy turns around, walks over to a couch, sits down and finally puts the gun down. Officers call for an ambulance but the guy dies shortly thereafter. My friend then purchased a 6" nickel 25-5 .45 Colt and a couple of years later left for DEA.

The officer who didn't use the city issue ammo was using the Federal Nyclad 125 grain I believe... He had to shoot a guy who was seated in a car during a traffic stop and even after hitting him several times the guy was still able to deploy the gun he was going for. I believe he bought a 29-3...

The one officer who was happy that I spoke to was a 30 year sergeant who had just entered a motorhome looking for a murder suspect. The guy popped out of the back of the MH and the sergeant shot him once in the chest with a Model 15 and the city issue ammo... Guy went right down and could not have been more pleased.

Those are the ones I can remember right now...

..and as said above there was a reason they called the .38 Special "Widowmaker"...why do you think officers when they could would put .357s in their guns knowing if they got caught they faced being fired.

The .38 Special wasn't chosen by departments because of its effectiveness. It was chosen because it is the minimum that can be considered "adequate" to do the job and can be handled by the lowest skilled officer...I call it "marginal".

I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others....Bob

I haven't read the article in a while, but there was one entitled "When Cops Carried Revolvers" in AMERICAN COP (?) several years ago. Googling should turn up the online version. There's some general information along the lines of this discussion and more specific info as related to the Dallas PD from some years ago.