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Old 03-11-2017, 10:00 PM
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Default Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ??

Any members here more knowledged than I please respond as to why i don't want the Civil Defense 45 acp round in my shield. Have you seen the gel test?
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Old 03-11-2017, 11:41 PM
hkcavalier hkcavalier is offline
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Look at the Liberty line.

Sure, the recoil is gentle but it doesn't consistently expand OR penetrate deeply.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...c-tests/#45ACP
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Old 03-12-2017, 02:04 AM
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Federal hst is what you want
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Old 03-12-2017, 05:36 AM
V0OBWxZS16 V0OBWxZS16 is offline
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Fragmenting pistol ammo and under-penetrating ammo is bad.

Before asking "What ammo should I use?" you should ask "What should ammo do, what shouldn't it do, and how is it tested?" I recommend the following:
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness from the Firearms Training Unit of the FBI
Basic Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
Ordnance gelatin test assessment for rifle and pistol calibers by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
What's Wrong With The Wound Ballistics Literature And Why by Dr. Fackler

For specific recommendations I start here:
Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
Then here (for 9mm and 380):
9mm Ammo Quest on Youtube by ShootingTheBull410
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:32 AM
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Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ?? Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ?? Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ?? Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ?? Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ??  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V0OBWxZS16 View Post
Fragmenting pistol ammo and under-penetrating ammo is bad.

Before asking "What ammo should I use?" you should ask "What should ammo do, what shouldn't it do, and how is it tested?" I recommend the following:
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness from the Firearms Training Unit of the FBI
Basic Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
Ordnance gelatin test assessment for rifle and pistol calibers by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
What's Wrong With The Wound Ballistics Literature And Why by Dr. Fackler

For specific recommendations I start here:
Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo by Dr. Roberts (DocGKR)
Then here (for 9mm and 380):
9mm Ammo Quest on Youtube by ShootingTheBull410
I was asking ..as i have not seen any other ammo that creates such a devastating entry wound cavity at approx 2 inches in and over 6 inches wide. That would seem to be a threat ending wound....
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:47 AM
Lee's Landing Billy Lee's Landing Billy is offline
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I am an old man and I have never understood why people are so carried away with GEL tests. What do they really think it simulates?
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Old 03-12-2017, 11:36 AM
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Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ?? Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ?? Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ?? Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ?? Wow ..why do i NOT want this in my shield ??  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee's Landing Billy View Post
I am an old man and I have never understood why people are so carried away with GEL tests. What do they really think it simulates?
Don't know for sure but would have to guess that if ballistic gel is formulated to FBI specifications it is the closest thing we have to simulate human tissue and gives "some" comparison base for testing effects of different ammo. Why else would they use it
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Old 03-12-2017, 12:56 PM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lee's Landing Billy View Post
I am an old man and I have never understood why people are so carried away with GEL tests. What do they really think it simulates?

It seems to simulate naked bellies fairly well, and its main motivation for use is that it is uniform and can be used for controlled lab testing with repeatable results. The disadvantage is that the similarity to hits on a real mammalian body, other than the NAKED BELLY, is ephemeral at best. A fragile bullet can blow up on a wrist bone and do little to no damage to the body behind it. A thick leather coat can similarly stop it.


I am not a great fan of "trick" bullets that seem to produce good results only under very specific, limited conditions. When I go deer hunting, I want a sturdy, expanding, penetrating bullet, and humans are similar in size to a deer.
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  #9  
Old 03-12-2017, 01:23 PM
Model520Fan Model520Fan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
Don't know for sure but would have to guess that if ballistic gel is formulated to FBI specifications it is the closest thing we have to simulate human tissue and gives "some" comparison base for testing effects of different ammo. Why else would they use it
They use it because it's the best they can do, which is VERY POOR. You see any bones in that gelatin? And if there were, the results would vary TREMENDOUSLY from shot to shot, which is not usually the best way to test one ammo against another, which is really what testing is about.

This is not a criticism of the FBI, which is doing the best it can. But don't try to invalidate LLB's comment by dreaming that if the FBI uses it, it's good. It isn't.
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  #10  
Old 03-12-2017, 01:39 PM
Lostaro Lostaro is online now
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Gel testing does give us a tool for evaluating ammo on a somewhat level playing field. As close to scientific method tests as we have right now....but...
I wonder if the ammo companies are just designing rounds for the greatest WOW effect in gel test videos??? It's a good way to sell magic bullets....

Not bashing the ammo in question, I know zero about it.

If it hits where you aim and works in your gun you're 95% there!
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  #11  
Old 03-12-2017, 02:14 PM
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Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
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Your choice. But I quit getting excited about new fangled ammo years ago. Instead I choose to base my ammo selection on what law enforcement uses that has been proven on the street.

Off the top off my head the top two seem to be Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot.
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Old 03-12-2017, 02:52 PM
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I use whats proven. Doesn't get any simpler. GD and HST

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  #13  
Old 03-12-2017, 05:07 PM
jd67 jd67 is offline
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I dont normally find myself in a fight against GEL , so the test that uses such stuff is useless ....ok poor choice of words , maybe of little interest to me might be better put? The 45 acp was built around a 200gr fmj bullet going 900fps US army wanted 230gr @ 850 so thats what Browning gave them. I find the best balance is still a 200gr @ 900fps or so. my point take pride in making your own , look at what makes the gun fuction the right way and killem with class!! "who loves ya baby?"
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Old 03-12-2017, 06:06 PM
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Gun doesn't know the difference between 200 and 220 and 50fps +/-. And one doesn't do anything better than the other.

Gel test work because it simulates human tissue and it can be used to judge one manufacturer vs another. Want to know what your bullet does in soft flesh? Shoot something living....or....shoot gel. Only way you can see what a FMJ does compared to HP, how it does it and when it does it. Otherwise it's just a guessing game. No you cannot put the human element to gel but you also can't just shoot humans. Another thing is you can't count on the human element. One person may die from a 22 and the next will survive 6 shots of 357 to the chest (happened in 1994). You're testing the bullet not the person

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Old 03-13-2017, 04:21 AM
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I have to agree, IMO the Federal HST and Speer GDHP ammo are the best available today.
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:12 AM
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JMO, but if you really want to know how a handgun bullet works talk to a deer hunter.
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:14 PM
hkcavalier hkcavalier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
I have to agree, IMO the Federal HST and Speer GDHP ammo are the best available today.
I would add the Winchester Ranger to that. I have a lot of Hornady Critical Defense/Critical Duty which I'm trying to use and replace with the three listed here. The Hornady is good but not "best".
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:35 PM
V0OBWxZS16 V0OBWxZS16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
I was asking ..as i have not seen any other ammo that creates such a devastating entry wound cavity at approx 2 inches in and over 6 inches wide. That would seem to be a threat ending wound....
It doesn't create a devastating entry wound cavity. The threat-ending targets within the human body are the brain, upper spinal cord, heart, and pulmonary arteries. Those targets are several inches deep from a perfect frontal shot and if you are only offered an angle or the bad guy's arms are in the way then significant penetration is required.

For pistol bullets you want loads and projectiles that do not fragment and perform well in the IWBA or FBI test protocols which evaluate penetration depth, expansion reliability, and barrier penetration.

The links I provided before can explain things better and more completely than I can here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee's Landing Billy View Post
I am an old man and I have never understood why people are so carried away with GEL tests. What do they really think it simulates?
It was designed to simulate tissue. It provides almost the same effect on the bullet as tissue (that "equal and opposite" stuff we all learned in school.) This allows evaluation of projectile deformation and penetration in tissue.

Testing with bones embedded in the gelatin and comparisons between gelatin and real life have been done:
http://publications.gc.ca/collection...-2-1995-1E.pdf
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fac...hester_9mm.pdf

Last edited by V0OBWxZS16; 03-13-2017 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:36 AM
30-30remchester 30-30remchester is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee's Landing Billy View Post
I am an old man and I have never understood why people are so carried away with GEL tests. What do they really think it simulates?
I have to agree. I use downed big game animals as my test medium. As soon as I arrive at a downed elk, deer, or antelope, I prop it up and test varying calibers and bullets. The results very often differ from gel. Last year I used a model 36 2" and Winchester 110 grn hollow points and 125 grn Remington Golden Sabre on a small mule deer buck that had just been hit by a car. None of the 4 bullets I fired exited the broadside ribcage shots I took. Later that year I shot a similar sized mule deer buck on the last day of season. I propped him up and used my Ruger LCP and Buffalo Bore 95 grn flat point full metal jackets. Two shots through the ribcage and one through the neck and every bullet exited and went whistling across the mountains. This was winter time and the deer had a heavy coat of fur. From the you tube videos I have not seen such performance as I experienced.
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:58 AM
Model520Fan Model520Fan is online now
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Quote:
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It was designed to simulate tissue. It provides almost the same effect on the bullet as tissue (that "equal and opposite" stuff we all learned in school.)
Which tissue?
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Old 03-14-2017, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee's Landing Billy View Post
I am an old man and I have never understood why people are so carried away with GEL tests. What do they really think it simulates?
Cheaper than using cadavers and much less public outrage.

Like any other scientific evaluation, a universal control is needed to translate data between different companies.
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:08 PM
V0OBWxZS16 V0OBWxZS16 is offline
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Which tissue?
Muscle tissue. It's supposedly the most difficult to penetrate.
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
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Muscle tissue. It's supposedly the most difficult to penetrate.
More difficult than bone?
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Old 03-16-2017, 11:51 PM
V0OBWxZS16 V0OBWxZS16 is offline
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Quote:
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More difficult than bone?
I meant soft tissue not bone.
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