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Old 03-14-2017, 02:09 PM
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What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr?  
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Default What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr?

I've been running in my semi-auto Thunderbolts and Golden Bullets for the last few weeks and find about 1 out of 15-20 rounds are ftf. Is this normal? What's your experience?
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Old 03-14-2017, 02:22 PM
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I bought a few 1400 rd buckets of Golden bullets last year and have hd no issues shooting them in a 15-22.

In my SR22 I use mini mags after issues of failure to eject(2-3/100 with M22 and much higher failure to feed and eject rate with blue box Federal Champion.

I have no 1st hand experience with Thunderbolts.
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Old 03-14-2017, 02:54 PM
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I don't think it's acceptable that any of them FTF but it seems to be the norm with .22LR ammo. I don't think I've ever taken out a .22 and not had at least a few rounds that didn't fire.

As a kid, our father would give us one or two 50 round boxes at the range to shoot and that was it. We would keep recycling the dud's until they eventually would go off. After we shot up all our ammo, we would start digging thru the piles of spent shells on the ground looking for more dud's. Kept us out of trouble.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:10 PM
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Zero. It does happen, but if it does I suspect all the ammo in that batch.
A failure to fire due to my gun is to me a defect and need immediate remedy.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:15 PM
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I think your gun just doesn't like the Remington ammo or there is something wrong with the gun. You need to try different brands of ammo to see if that is the problem.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:29 PM
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I haven't used Remington Thunderbolt .22 ammo in a long time. I don't recall any that didn't fire, but it was certainly among the most inaccurate ammo on the market some years back in both handgun and rifle. Maybe it has improved in that regard. After trying many cheap/bulk ammos, I've found you usually get what you pay for.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:31 PM
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Thunderbolts are junk. In my experience they are prone to FTF. Also accuracy is horrible and powder charge seems inconsistent.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franzas View Post
Thunderbolts are junk. In my experience they are prone to FTF. Also accuracy is horrible and powder charge seems inconsistent.

The Thunderbolt ammo from 10 ~ 15 years ago was a whole lot better than the stuff I see today.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:39 PM
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Typical bulk ammo results which is fine for plinking ammo.Try the more expensive brands for better results
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:00 PM
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1 out of 20 is entirely unacceptable IMO that is very frustrating. As others have said try different brands of ammo. With the bulk brands it wouldn't surprise me to have 1 or 2 FTF per thousand but 1 out of 20 is crazy. Good luck.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:06 PM
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Try CCI Standard Velocity. It works and is more accurate than bulk stuff. It costs more, but it's worth it. There are a few others, all slightly less accurate overall than CCI SV, but they may be worth trying: Aguila SV, Blazer, and Winchester SV or HV (not Winchester bulk).
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:07 PM
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The issue with .22 rimfire ammo seems to be the poor distribution of priming compound around the entire rim. If you take a .22 dud and spin it around and hit a different spot on the rim it will usually fire.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:12 PM
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I've shot several bulk packs of recent Thunderbolts - I consider them reliable like 1 or 2 defects per pack. My target rifle has a tight chamber and occasionally I have to use the camming action of the bolt to get a Thunderbolt in. Model 63, Browning Nomad, Henry lever gun, really no problems with TB's.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:23 PM
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I don't shoot 22's much any more, so I guess I'm out of touch. When I started shooting as a kid of 14, the 22 is what I shot and hunted with. Lived with one on my belt most of the time around the South Georgia rivers and swamps. By the time I was 18 I had put thousands of rounds through my pistol and rifle. Never had one FTF ever! My friends were all like me and also shot thousands of rounds. I never heard of one FTF. Now, WWII surplus ammo failed a lot. I had an Italian Carcano. My father told me just to pull the bad round and stick it in the ground bullet down. There are many rounds all around the swamps probably still there stuck in the ground.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:25 PM
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Any cartridge that doesn't fire the first time should be considered unacceptable performance.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Backlighting View Post
I've been running in my semi-auto Thunderbolts and Golden Bullets for the last few weeks and find about 1 out of 15-20 rounds are ftf. Is this normal? What's your experience?
I don't have many pet peeves but this is one of them.

"Don't use an acronym when the meaning or context is unclear."

FTF?

Do you mean "Failure To Feed" or "Failure To Fire"?

I suspect the latter, but the former is a more common usage of "FTF".

"FTE" is another ambiguous acronym that is way over used. It can mean "Failure To Extract" or the slight later in the process "Failure To Eject".

It only takes a few more seconds to type it out and be clear in your question.

-----

I regard more than a single failure to fire per box of 50 to be about the norm in plinking ammo, and more or less acceptable. More than that, I start looking at why.

- If it goes bang on a second attempt, it's probably a light strike issue caused by the firearm, although some brands have harder rims than others so brand can play a role.

- If it doesn't go bang second time and I reiterate the cartridge and try a another strike on the opposite side of the rim, and it goes bang, it's probably a result of primer compound not being evenly distributed around the rim.

- If it won't go bang at all it's an absence of primer compound in the rim.

Medium and high quality match ammo goes bang virtually all the time and I find any failure to fire to be unacceptable. Basically, match ammo is much more consistent in velocity (lower standard deviation) and it's generally graded by the number of fliers. For example with SK Standard Plus, I expect two uncalled fliers when shooting a pair of A-23 targets with sighters - about 60 rounds total. When I step up to SK Rifle Match, I expect that to fall to no uncalled fliers, and if I step down in quality to SK Magazine, I expect 3-4 fliers per box of 50 - but I expect them all to go bang and I can't recall the last failure to fire I had with SK anything. I'm sure I've had one but it's been years ago.

The increased potential for primer failure and the potential for rim lock in some magazine designs are two key reasons why .22LR makes a poor choice for self defense - in addition to its lack of penetration and small wound tracks.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shocker View Post
/... My target rifle has a tight chamber and occasionally I have to use the camming action of the bolt to get a Thunderbolt in.
That makes life interesting if the range goes cold with a round in the chamber as it usually won't extract from a tight chamber.

I shoot better stuff in my target rifles and precision .22 LRs. SK Std Plus is about the base level.

I save the Remington Thunderbolts and Golden Bullets for plinking with my S&W Model 17 and my Beretta Model 70 as they both seem to like it just fine - it's 1 1/4" at 25 yards accurate in the Model 17 and feeds very reliably in the Model 70.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:45 PM
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Backlighting: Your rate of misfires is way too high. I would suspect gunk in the firing pin channel which would slow down the firing pin.
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:53 PM
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In my limited experience, I would consider 1 in 15-20 to be cause for decision. Either that's bad ammo, or bad ammo in that gun. Only once have I found rimfire ammo that was bad in everything that I tried it in.

IIRC, the only ammo that always worked well was CCI, but there may be an exception to that, too. The only rule with .22LR is that there are no rules.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Backlighting View Post
I've been running in my semi-auto Thunderbolts and Golden Bullets for the last few weeks and find about 1 out of 15-20 rounds are ftf. Is this normal? What's your experience?
You don't say what kind of gun you are shooting, but that's a too-high rate of failures. I haven't shot Thunderbolts in a while because I've read enough complaints about them to convince me not to shoot them. However, the gun can also play a role in such failures. My ancient (1938) H&R Expert target revolver will fire anything. My semi-ancient (1974) Ruger Standard has been much more picky about ammo. Until I sent it back to the factory for an overhaul (new ejector and extractor), it would reliably fire only higher-velocity rounds, 1300 fps (feet per second for BB57 ) or faster. After the overhaul, it's now as reliable as my H&R. Check your gun to make sure all systems are working properly.

As to the ammo I do shoot, I've found CCI Mini-Mags to be the best of the mass-produced readily available .22lr cartridges. However, my absolute favorites are CCI Stingers. They are easily the most accurate rounds I shoot from my Ruger, possibly due to their 1600+ fps velocities. They also make a really cool muzzle flash. The downside is that they're expensive and sometimes hard to find.
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:11 PM
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Just for the record, CCI stands for Cascade Cartridge, Inc.

I don't think that fps suffers from indeterminate meaning in quite the way that FTF does.

H&R, of course, stands for Harrington & (and) Richardson.
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:16 PM
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If your FTF means Fail to Feed, then my semi-auto starts having issues after it gets dirty, at approx. 100 rds.
If your FTF means Fail to Fire, I've had one in the last 300 rds.

Using CCI Mini-Mags.
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:50 PM
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In my part of the world, you have to be paid by someone to take Thunderbolts off their hands. Junk is not a correct description for Thunderbolts, they are far, far worse that junk. You can give ammo away, except for Thunderbolt, then you have to pay so much per brick to the guy taking them away. only ammo know to man to have this bad of a reputation.
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:58 PM
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I should have stated that by FTF I mean failure to fire. My apologies.
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:00 PM
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That wouldn't be acceptable to me. Unfortunately, junk .22 ammo seems to be the norm these days. I think it will get better, now that the ammo companies are catching up somewhat, but until then I'm sticking to MiniMags. Never had a problem with them.
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:42 PM
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When I shot Thunderbolt some years ago, I tried a total of six Remington .22 LR ammos, a brick of each. Besides Thunderbolt, they included: Remington HV, Remington HV HP, Remington Target, Remington Cyclone HP, and Remington Subsonic HP. All shot more accurately than Thunderbolt, but some, not by much. This is for information only and I'm not sure it would be at all relevant today. I have no idea if these Remington .22 ammos are even in current production.
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:42 PM
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You get what you pay for in .22 ammo just like everything else.
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
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I should have stated that by FTF I mean failure to fire. My apologies.
When I read the title, I thought you were looking for a good price on a Face To Face purchase. What is the going rate.
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:23 PM
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Thunderbolts are cheap junk, goldens are worse. They will function for a while (maybe longer) in some guns than others. Just holding some goldens in your hand will leave that gold faerie dust in your hand that EVENTUALLY jammed up the bolt on my 15-22 & required a full bolt strip to solve the problem. The rest of the gun looked perfectly clean, but a bolt strip every so often with any ammo "should" keep it running 100%. The brand/type of semi auto matters.

Last edited by hangnoose; 03-14-2017 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:48 PM
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Remington makes some really bad bulk .22 ammo, it's really shameful that they put out such a lousy product. Thunderbolt is dirty, not very accurate, and not very consistent, Golden Bullet the same. That said, I got a few buckets of Golden Bullets during the shortage to keep my son on the trigger, as well as Thunderbolts that I've had for a while, and we have not experienced that rate of duds, not even close... Just a guess, but maybe one dud every couple/few hundred rounds, maybe...

I mainly shoot CCI standard velocity, Aguilla, and Federal, and have had good results. For competition I've had great luck with Eley Tennex and Match, and even Wolf. I bought a case of Wolf years ago, and it is very consistent and accurate. At the time, it was a great value, but much more expensive these days...

For less expensive fodder, Blazer and Federals have been very good... The Blazer has been surprisingly good in many of my rifles. I know some people don't care for it, but this cheap (had bought a bunch prior to the "Great Shortage") Blazer really performs well for me, maybe I got a good lot of it...? Winchester Wildcats have been not so great (but better than Remington), and Winchester Super X and Target has been ok. As always, YMMV.
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Old 03-15-2017, 02:17 AM
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I've tried a lot of brands of .22 ammo and a few have very poor reliability, I can't stand 1 out of 100 rounds that doesn't eject or fire. For matches I like CCI Mini Mags. 100% reliability. Also Federal AutoMatch and CCI Blazer.

In my Ruger Mark III and IV I use the high velocity ammo. It will guarantee that the bolt will eject the cases. I find thes brands to be clean too. Important for when I'm shooting my revolver.
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Old 03-15-2017, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
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I've been running in my semi-auto Thunderbolts and Golden Bullets for the last few weeks and find about 1 out of 15-20 rounds are ftf. Is this normal? What's your experience?
IME, good 22RF ammo shouldn't experience more than 1-3 FTF in 500 rounds. Anything above that is either an ammo or gun problem. First thing I'd do is try different ammo to rule out the gun. CCI standard velocity is the "gold standard" for performance quality in my area.

Inexpensive/bulk 22LR ammo is notorious for having quality issues; that's why they price it the way they do. I'm convinced that the mfg. batch test each lot for meeting quality standards and the lots that don't, become bulk. For them it beats scrapping 10's of thousands of rounds, but we end up getting stuck with the junk.
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:11 PM
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I guess the solution is, don't use inexpensive ammo. Life's too short.
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:14 AM
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If that's the state of .22LR ammo manufacturing these days, I'm more convinced than ever that it's a poor choice for self defense.

In all the years I shot .22 rifles I never once had a failure. That was almost all Remington stuff. It was also years ago.
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:14 AM
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I don't use Thunderbolts any more. Goldens I've never had a problem with.

Thunderbolts leave more than they receive.

free upload
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:37 AM
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The original poster asks for "acceptable failure to fire" with cheap .22 LR ammo. Maybe I'm missing the point here as many responders have their own perfectly acceptable approximate figures as to failure rates.

I shoot only CCI Standard Velocity in a number of handguns and rifles. I buy it by the case of 5,000 from Target Sports and have for a good while; no shipping cost and no tax.

A few months back I had one round that didn't fire with the first pull of the trigger in a handgun. Worked the second time. In an all the years I have used this stuff, that was the first time I recall such an incident and I've been using it in fifteen, maybe twenty guns. I can't attribute the initial failure to the gun or ammo, because I simply don't know.

This hasn't exactly shaken my faith in CCI SV as I recently bought another case, but the fact that it happened at all really surprised me. Since no one knows exactly what their failure rate is, I'll join the crowd and estimate mine as one in several thousand. That's one too many.
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Old 03-17-2017, 01:04 PM
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I never heard of a failure to fire with 22 ammo until the 2000's seems like quality control has slipped since I was younger
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Old 03-17-2017, 01:28 PM
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What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr?  
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Gave away the bulk box of Thunderbolts I bought a couple of years ago during the "shortage" after numerous duds. Never bought any since then. CCI, Federal, Winchester SuperX, Blazer have all been good. Prefer CCI when available. Use HV in semi-automatics and standard velocity in revolvers.
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Old 03-18-2017, 09:20 AM
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I remember reading several Threads and post in the past on 22 lr saying it is not wise to use 22lr rounds that are less than 1250 Feet per Second in certain guns. Referring to the design of the barrel lining I learned not to use uncoated lead 22lr rounds in certain guns that I may or may not own. I also learned the hard way why Thunderbolts are hated. However I also learned how to remove extreme lead when I used thunderbolts.
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Old 03-18-2017, 09:47 AM
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I get to see a lot of ammo shot here. A can full of .22 that doesn't go off. Of all the thousands shot here I have NEVER seen anything with CCI not go bang, never. I have a Folgers coffee can about 2/3 full of centerfire that didn't go off. Almost all of those can be traced to a striker fired gun of some sort. Adding an external hammer to the mix will usually fix the problem. At least that's what we see here. When those hammers go WOP it is followed by a bang.
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Old 03-18-2017, 10:18 AM
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What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr?  
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Default It all depends on the gun

I have a Sig 226 with the factory .22 conversion it fails to fire on about 5 out of 10 using Goldens but eats Mini's. My GSG AK.22 will shoot anything except when it needs cleaning.. I have a bucket of goldens. I find that the goldens have a loose fitting bullet in the case, maybe they don't hit the ramp properly
who knows. The Federal auto match are a second choice
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Old 03-18-2017, 10:29 AM
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What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJM15 View Post
I have a Sig 226 with the factory .22 conversion it fails to fire on about 5 out of 10 using Goldens but eats Mini's. My GSG AK.22 will shoot anything except when it needs cleaning.. I have a bucket of goldens. I find that the goldens have a loose fitting bullet in the case, maybe they don't hit the ramp properly
who knows. The Federal auto match are a second choice
A lot of no fires usually work if you reload them, someone told me that the problem is the liquid primer in the rim is not distributed completely around. I think they are done by using centrifugal force spinning them. Maybe "someone told me" is not always right, but again who knows
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Old 03-18-2017, 01:14 PM
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What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr? What's acceptable FTF on inexpensive .22lr?  
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I have not experienced any failures to fire in the last several decades. I limit myself to CCI standard velocity, and fire out of quality clean firearms, most often Ruger MK II, S&W K-22, Colt 1911 .22 Conversion on a Series 70, and Winchester 62A. My worst problems are keeping the K-22 cylinder clean enough to not bind, and keeping the Colt 'floating chamber' floating, but the remedy there is to clean them well after several boxes of ammo.
So, my variables are very few, but my success rate approaches 100%.
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