How do I get my 1911 to shoot higher?

[Runs With Gun]

My S&W 1911 SC Roundbutt Performance Center shoots low with Speer Gold Dot 230 grain +P rounds.

The gunsmith doesn't think a lower front sight will look right and S&W declined to work on it.

What JHP that passes FBI testing do you guys think will shoot higher?

[M E Morrison]

Originally Posted by Runs With Gun

My S&W 1911 SC Roundbutt Performance Center shoots low with Speer Gold Dot 230 grain +P rounds.

The gunsmith doesn't think a lower front sight will look right and S&W declined to work on it.

What JHP that passes FBI testing do you guys think will shoot higher?

Do you want it to "look right" or to "shoot right"?
Have you considered a different rear sight?

[Kid Shileen]

Aim higher

[rockquarry]

Sometimes trying a different ammo will work. A slower bullet will shoot higher. Are you checking the zero at 25 yards from a benchrest or are you shooting offhand? Bullet impact will generally be different from an offhand position than it is from a benchrest, but the offhand point of impact is what's important. If you shoot with both hands, bullet impact will be lower than if you use one hand.

Does FBI testing have some significance? Best ammo is what you shoot best consistently, is accurate and has a point of impact where you want it or very close to it. Hits are far more important than other considerations.

[WR Moore]

Originally Posted by Runs With Gun

What JHP that passes FBI testing do you guys think will shoot higher?

First thing, I'd make darn sure your low shot placement isn't due to yanking the trigger.

If that's not the issue, you have to realize that the complete FBI test sequence is for law enforcement that has to penetrate automobile sheet metal and glass, shoot through chance barricades like walls and doors and still perform as desired. Folks who use the test results are supposed to look at those test sequences that reflect their intended use. Frankly, any of the products of the major ammo makers should do just fine for self defense purposes. Where you put the bullet is more important than velocity, diameter, design or trendy brand name.

If you don't anticipate engaging someone inside an automobile, you might be better served by another brand/design of ammunition. You might start by dropping down to the standard pressure Gold Dot load and see what happens.

[gwpercle]

Heavier and slower bullets will impact higher. You have two different options:
1. Change the ammo
2. Change the sights

I do a lot of handloading with different weight and velocities so my method of choice is to install a fully adjustable rear sight....then I sight the pistol in to hit POA/POI for whatever load I'm using at the time.

Pistols that do not have fully adjustable sights can only be sighted in POA/POI for one load...you can't change the sights so you have to find the right load....and that load may not be the one you want.
Gary

[Joe4d]

Its a 45, doesnt really matter.
Pick up some standard 230's, 200 and 185's see what they do. Id try the standard 230's first as basic theiry is at short range,, say sub 25 they should hit the highest. But there are always variables. WHat size groups are you shooting ? If they are fairly tight and high it probably is the load.
You can find handgun front sight adjustment formula, you will need a micrometer to mike your current front. I dotn see how dropping .020 of an inch on a front sight is gonna make things look any different. Looking at that model of gun looks like rear is pretty low mounted not much you could do there. Other than go adjustable rear AND a new front.
I usually prefer fixed and just change front sight if needed to accommodate whatever load I am using.

[SRG]

Lower front sight or taller rear sight. Here's a link to a sight height calculator from Dawson Precision to help you figure out what you need.

http://https://dawsonprecision.com/sight-calculator/

[arjay]

An old geezer like me would do the math and then carefully file the right amount off of the front sight with a fine tooth file,cold blue it or use a sharpie and shoot it again

[Rpg]

^^^^^^^^^^^
Arjay has it down to a Science!

The only thing I’d do differently is I wouldn’t do any calculations: I’m not as good at calculations as he is.

I’d just get going shooting 5 shot groups at 25 yards from a rest and apply the file and a sharpie a little bit at a time.

[RobertJ.]

Originally Posted by arjay

An old geezer like me would do the math and then carefully file the right amount off of the front sight with a fine tooth file,cold blue it or use a sharpie and shoot it again

I was going to post "Take a dremel to that front sight!"

Kidding, of course.

Actually, I zeroed a Rossi .38 Special in the manner Arjay suggested, and even corrected the windage with just a little off the side of the front sight.

I wrote this knowing I might get a "wag of the finger" from some, but c'mon, it was a Rossi!

[Laketime]

Hold at 10 o'clock.

[stansdds]

Originally Posted by Runs With Gun

My S&W 1911 SC Roundbutt Performance Center shoots low with Speer Gold Dot 230 grain +P rounds.

The gunsmith doesn't think a lower front sight will look right and S&W declined to work on it.

What JHP that passes FBI testing do you guys think will shoot higher?

First thing I'd do would be to try some standard pressure 230 grain loads. Odds are, the pistol was sighted in using standard pressure ammo.

[tops]

Originally Posted by Runs With Gun

My S&W 1911 SC Roundbutt Performance Center shoots low with Speer Gold Dot 230 grain +P rounds.

?

Draw a coarser bead. I shot a pistol a couple of weeks ago that with the 3 dots in line the gun shot low. I sighted with the front sight dot above the 2 rear sight dots and it hit center. Simple as falling off a log worked great for me. Larry

[Runs With Gun]

Whoa, 12 replies!

The weapon most certainly shoots low offhand, I haven't fired it from a rest but maybe next week I can do rested shots.

I very nearly ordered some standard pressure Gold Dot before I began this thread, I think I might go for standard pressure Gold Dot, HST, and Hornady Critical Defense and try each one.

Back in 2004 I spent about $100.00 and a couple of hours at an indoor gun range finding the 9mm Parabellum* load that was accurate, reliable, and hit just a tad high in my Kahr P9 Covert. One of the clerks commented "you went about that exactly the right way, something few people do."

*Of course, it is a .45 so are hollow points really necessary, other than for over-penetration concerns? *I think that was Jeff Cooper's opinion.

*I prefer "Parabellum" to "Luger."

[rwsmith]

Is the pistol sighted for 6:00 o'clock or center of aim? If sighted for center of aim it will shoot low if you aim at 6:00.

[Wee Hooker]

It would be helpful to know:
1) What distance are you shooting and how low is the point of impact at that distance. That will tell you (after the math) if a lower front sight is even an option. Note that a 0.010" sight height change on a 1911 at will only move POI about 5/8" at 30'.
2) Have you had someone else shoot the gun? That will tell you if it's the gun or the shooter.

FWIW, I have two different SW1911's (both full sized) that shot a few inches low at 30' I ended up going to a .125" tall front sight to cure them both and get POI to POA.

[scattershot]

Lower front sight. Higher rear sight. Heavier slower bullet.

Those will fix it, but have someone else shoot the pistol to make sure it isn’t you.

[Decker]

Not telling you how to do it, just telling you how I do it.

First, I decide if I really really like this 1911 and if it's worth it to me to worry about fine tuning the sights. (I'm a fan and have several).
Second, I shoot it off a bench rest to make sure that I'm not affecting the point of impact.
Third, I choose whatever round I want to shoot "most" from this pistol. I do have some favorites.
With several 5-shot groups to compare, I decide if I'm really far enough off POA to merit work. If close, I just adjust my POA to get the consistent POI that I want.
If I'm so low that I can't accept it, I'll file my front sight (as was mentioned earlier) to bring it up.
If off to the left or right, rear sight drift is easy with a sight pusher.
If it shoots unacceptably high, it's time to change out the rear sight.

That's it. It's how I approach it.
I generally prefer fixed sights on 1911's due to the fact that I carry them a lot.
However, for range/target/competition 1911's, I'll install an adjustable rear sight and worry no more.

[one eye joe]

Originally Posted by rockquarry

Sometimes trying a different ammo will work. A slower bullet will shoot higher. Are you checking the zero at 25 yards from a benchrest or are you shooting offhand? Bullet impact will generally be different from an offhand position than it is from a benchrest, but the offhand point of impact is what's important. If you shoot with both hands, bullet impact will be lower than if you use one hand.

Does FBI testing have some significance? Best ammo is what you shoot best consistently, is accurate and has a point of impact where you want it or very close to it. Hits are far more important than other considerations.

I'M NOT EVEN SURE WHAT "FBI testing" MEANS.....

AS rock quarry PROPERLY IDENTIFIED, A SLOWER BULLET WILL LEAVE THE MUZZLE, WHEN IT IS HIGHER IN ITS RECOIL INDUCED ARC. THUS, THE POI WILL BE HIGHER.....

COINCIDENTALLY, YOU ARE SHOOTING 230 GR. PLUS P AMMO. 1911s ARE USUALLY DESIGNED TO SHOOT 230 GR. STANDARD VELOCITY AMMO. BECAUSE THE +P IS FASTER, IT WILL SHOOT LOWER. IF A CHANGE TO SV DOESN'T WORK, A CHANGE OF REAR SIGHT BLADE SOULD HELP.....

YOU COULD CONTACT WILSON COMBAT AND/OR CYLINDER & SLIDE , TO DISCUSS REPLACING BOTH OF YOUR FACTORY SIGHTS, WITH A MATCHED SET OF THEIRS. YOU COULD EVEN OPT FOR NIGHT SIGHTS.....

BOTH OF THESE SHOPS DO EXCELLENT WORK. MOST SHOPS BUNDLE FEATURED SERVICES INTO PACKAGES, THAT COST LESS THAN THE SUM OF THE SERVICES INDIVIDUALLY......

FOR INSTANCE, YOU MAY OPT TO HAVE YOUR WEAPON ACCURIZED, YOUR MAGWELL OPENING SMOOTHED, YOUR TRIGGER SWAPPED OR THE PULL REDUCED, ETC------FOR EXAMLE....

IF YOUR GUN IS GOING TO BE THERE ANYWAY, SPEND A LITTLE EXTRA TO TURN THIS GUN INTO AN ACCURATE AND RELIABLE, PERSONALIZED WEAPON THAT WILL SHOOT YOUR CHOICE OF SD AMMO, POA TO POI.....

YOUR PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP, AND JOY OF SHOOTING WILL QUICKLY OVERCOME THE COST OF THE UPGRADES---ESPECIALLY IF YOU AMORTIZE IT OVER THE LIFETIME OF THE PISTOL.....

[M29since14]

Why did S&W decline? I suppose they didn’t have a lower front or a taller rear?

If that was their excuse, it’s a poor one.

[BigBill]

Shoots low at what distance?

I sight my 1911’s in at 25yards no less.

[DWalt]

Within the last two years, I've had three different guns with fixed sights that I have needed to file down their front sights substantially to get hits in the black. I usually fire it enough to see exactly how much I need to lower the front sight before I start filing. I bought a minty Ruger .22 Standard Model and was amazed how much I had to file down the front sight and move the rear sight to the right. Before I started the group center was over a foot off from POA at 25 yards.

[Doug M.]

Originally Posted by one eye joe

I'M NOT EVEN SURE WHAT "FBI testing" MEANS.....

*
Ammo tested using the FBI protocol developed after the "Miami" (it's actually near, but not in Miami) shootout, and tweaked here and there since then.

I think that the OP will find that the standard velocity Gold Dot will do better; most .45s I have seen are set up around a 230 grain bullet at 830 +/- 20 FPS nominal velocity. The distance matters, too. The actual trajectory is not flat - the round climbs for a bit, then gravity's pull starts working harder. That's the reason why one can (and should) sight in an AR at 50 yards; it will cross again at about 200 yards, and work adequately from 25-250. When I was testing my Glock with the newly added red dot, I did most of the initial sighting work at 7 yards, expecting (and finding) that the bullet was climbing at that distance. I sighted it in a couple inches low and it was almost dead on at 25 when I moved out. I would not test this 1911 at any less than 15 yards, and preferably 25.

[alwslate]

I don't mind having to file down the front sight of a handgun to bring
the point of impact up to the point of aim. I've done it several times.
I do the math first then use a micrometer to measure the front sight
height and reduce it by the required amount. Easy one adjustment
fix.

[WR Moore]

Originally Posted by M29since14

Why did S&W decline? I suppose they didn’t have a lower front or a taller rear?

If that was their excuse, it’s a poor one.

Various manufacturers produced millions of 1911 pattern pistols for military use using one set of sights (actually the same height above bore) and managed to get satisfactory results so far as shooting to point of aim. The sight parameters have been well established by the industry so it's likely different sight heights may/may not be factory available.

Heck, when I built 1911's and the customer wanted different sights, I'd install the rear sight, measure height from bottom of the slide rails, measure thickness of the slide at the front sight location, install the front sight, look at the chart I made and machine the height of the sight to match the chart. Never got any complaints.

I expect S&W-as virtually all other manufacturers would -consider the OP's issue most likely operator error and/or poor ammunition selection. If the front sight is dovetail mounted, changing the front sight is a minor issue.

[LoboGunLeather]

Step 1: Try shooting from a solid bench rest, preferably sand bags. This will provide a much better evaluation of how the pistol is performing by minimizing the effects of operator error.

Step 2: Have at least one other person shoot the pistol, preferably someone with experience with that pistol type and good shooting skills. This should help identify any problems raised by your own shooting techniques.

Step 3: With fixed-sight handguns we have limited options for bringing POI to POA, as others have pointed out. Either a higher rear sight or a lower front sight will raise POI in relation to POA, so the options are limited to altering the existing sights or replacing one or both.

Of course, not all ammunition will shoot to the same POI. Lighter bullets will typically shoot lower than heavier bullets. Bullets of the same weight and type will impact differently depending on velocity and recoil impulse. The theory that is hinted at by the OP's questions is that the +P loads in use are striking lower than POA due to higher velocity resulting in bullets leaving the muzzle earlier in the recoil impulse, and that theory can be easily tested by simply shooting some standard pressure/velocity loads. Back to step 1 and step 2 to accurately test that theory.

[Pisgah]

Originally Posted by tops

Draw a coarser bead. I shot a pistol a couple of weeks ago that with the 3 dots in line the gun shot low. I sighted with the front sight dot above the 2 rear sight dots and it hit center. Simple as falling off a log worked great for me. Larry

If we're talking 3-dot sights, you're on the right trail. Proper use of a 3-dot set-up is to align the dots and then PLACE THE FRONT DOT ON THE DESIRED POINT OF IMPACT. This goes counter to the way most folks use regular sights -- placing the top of the sights on the desired impact point. Do that with 3-dots, and you shoot low.

[REM 3200]

Try standard pressure Gold-Dots/HST instead of +P.

[CDR_Glock]

Originally Posted by Runs With Gun

My S&W 1911 SC Roundbutt Performance Center shoots low with Speer Gold Dot 230 grain +P rounds.



The gunsmith doesn't think a lower front sight will look right and S&W declined to work on it.



What JHP that passes FBI testing do you guys think will shoot higher?

It is probably set for Combat hold where you cover the bull’s eye with the front sight.


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